Saints-gate Shirts

[-kj]

How about just "don't lie to the Commissioner".

Is that done in all locker rooms from high school up to the NFL?

I'm sure it is. A coach/player even in high school would be stupid to admit to a principal that this took place. Of course they'd be suspended, etc. Look at Cole Hammels for the Phillies, looks like he'll be suspended for telling the truth.

Your assumption is not correct. It's not done in every locker room.

And your defense of not telling the truth is pretty ridiculous. You don't want to be suspended or fired? Lying is not the answer. Punishments are far less severe if you man up and tell the truth. If you deserve to get suspended, then you deserve to get suspended. When you lie, then all bets are off.

Agree to disagree then. I find it naive not to think that every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors. Saints were just dumb/unlucky enough to get caught. For the NFL to single out the Saints is embarrassing. Punish all or don't punish at all. Scapegoats aren't going to fix the real problem.

So.. punish everyone based on anecdotal evidence that "every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors"? There's no logic in that. You get caught, you get punished. You try to cover it up and get caught anyway? Well, y'all done screwed up.

[Axis_of_Weasel]

Nice! What'd you do to get Doug Benson to wear the hoodie?

i thought that was roethlisberger

[Gothamite]

How about just "don't lie to the Commissioner".

Is that done in all locker rooms from high school up to the NFL?

I'm sure it is. A coach/player even in high school would be stupid to admit to a principal that this took place. Of course they'd be suspended, etc. Look at Cole Hammels for the Phillies, looks like he'll be suspended for telling the truth.

Your assumption is not correct. It's not done in every locker room.

And your defense of not telling the truth is pretty ridiculous. You don't want to be suspended or fired? Lying is not the answer. Punishments are far less severe if you man up and tell the truth. If you deserve to get suspended, then you deserve to get suspended. When you lie, then all bets are off.

Agree to disagree then. I find it naive not to think that every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors. Saints were just dumb/unlucky enough to get caught. For the NFL to single out the Saints is embarrassing. Punish all or don't punish at all. Scapegoats aren't going to fix the real problem.

So.. punish everyone based on anecdotal evidence that "every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors"? There's no logic in that. You get caught, you get punished. You try to cover it up and get caught anyway? Well, y'all done screwed up.

Exactly.

If other teams are doing it, they'll get caught and they'll be punished. Even more severely than the Saints have been, I suspect.

But to claim that the Saints are being singled out just because they're the only team the NFL has the goods on is just bizarre. Of course they're the ones being punished. They're the ones who cheated, got caught, were warned, kept on cheating, got caught again, lied about it, got caught again and are now whinging about being picked on...

[hawk36]

How about just "don't lie to the Commissioner".

Is that done in all locker rooms from high school up to the NFL?

I'm sure it is. A coach/player even in high school would be stupid to admit to a principal that this took place. Of course they'd be suspended, etc. Look at Cole Hammels for the Phillies, looks like he'll be suspended for telling the truth.

Your assumption is not correct. It's not done in every locker room.

And your defense of not telling the truth is pretty ridiculous. You don't want to be suspended or fired? Lying is not the answer. Punishments are far less severe if you man up and tell the truth. If you deserve to get suspended, then you deserve to get suspended. When you lie, then all bets are off.

Agree to disagree then. I find it naive not to think that every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors. Saints were just dumb/unlucky enough to get caught. For the NFL to single out the Saints is embarrassing. Punish all or don't punish at all. Scapegoats aren't going to fix the real problem.

So.. punish everyone based on anecdotal evidence that "every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors"? There's no logic in that. You get caught, you get punished. You try to cover it up and get caught anyway? Well, y'all done screwed up.

Exactly.

If other teams are doing it, they'll get caught and they'll be punished. Even more severely than the Saints have been, I suspect.

But to claim that the Saints are being singled out just because they're the only team the NFL has the goods on is just bizarre. Of course they're the ones being punished. They're the ones who cheated, got caught, were warned, kept on cheating, got caught again, lied about it, got caught again and are now whinging about being picked on...

Fair enough I guess. It's actually why I wished the punishment was even harsher since that would make those punished "turn" on the others and name names and thus expose the hypocrisy of the NFL. Maybe you're correct and the Saints are the only ones to have ever done this, but I doubt it.

[leggman01]

Maybe you're correct and the Saints are the only ones to have ever done this, but I doubt it.

you're missing the point completely...he's saying that as of right now, the saints are the only team to have been warned twice, lie about it, attempt to cover it up, and been caught a third time

step 1: the nfl issued a blanket policy to all teams - the saints continued

step 2: the nfl specifically told the saints to stop (again) - they didn't

step 3: the nfl found evidence that they continued AND attempted to cover it up

step 4: the nfl punished pretty harshly

at this time there is no known evidence (at least that i'm aware of) that any other team didn't stop after the blanket policy was issued - there may have been other teams that got to step 2, as the saints did...this was not public knowledge and i don't suspect it will be public knowledge unless another team gets to step 3, at which point i assume harsh punishment for said team will be in order

i personally think that the nfl has shown a good deal of restraint...if this were one of my kids who didn't listen to what i said, i'm going from step 1 to step 4

[oldschoolvikings]

How about just "don't lie to the Commissioner".

Is that done in all locker rooms from high school up to the NFL?

I'm sure it is. A coach/player even in high school would be stupid to admit to a principal that this took place. Of course they'd be suspended, etc. Look at Cole Hammels for the Phillies, looks like he'll be suspended for telling the truth.

Your assumption is not correct. It's not done in every locker room.

And your defense of not telling the truth is pretty ridiculous. You don't want to be suspended or fired? Lying is not the answer. Punishments are far less severe if you man up and tell the truth. If you deserve to get suspended, then you deserve to get suspended. When you lie, then all bets are off.

Agree to disagree then. I find it naive not to think that every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors. Saints were just dumb/unlucky enough to get caught. For the NFL to single out the Saints is embarrassing. Punish all or don't punish at all. Scapegoats aren't going to fix the real problem.

So.. punish everyone based on anecdotal evidence that "every NFL team is doing the same behind closed doors"? There's no logic in that. You get caught, you get punished. You try to cover it up and get caught anyway? Well, y'all done screwed up.

Exactly. Next time you're pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that everyone else was going faster than the speed limit, too. See if he says that, in that case, you're off the hook.

[hawk36]

Exactly. Next time you're pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that everyone else was going faster than the speed limit, too. See if he says that, in that case, you're off the hook.

That's actually a great analogy. Everyone does speed and the unlucky ones get punished for doing what everyone else is doing.

I think my biggest issue was that there was no logical scale of punishment. Should have been a game or two at first, then 6, then 12, then a full season. To go from 0 to a total season is extreme.

[WSU151]

Exactly. Next time you're pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that everyone else was going faster than the speed limit, too. See if he says that, in that case, you're off the hook.

That's actually a great analogy. Everyone does speed and the unlucky ones get punished for doing what everyone else is doing.

I think my biggest issue was that there was no logical scale of punishment. Should have been a game or two at first, then 6, then 12, then a full season. To go from 0 to a total season is extreme.

Your punishment system would work if players and coaches told the truth. They didn't.

Again...the bounty program punishments would have been minimal if the players and coaches didn't cover it up.

Do you think it's fair the Patriots got singled out in Spygate?

[hawk36]

Exactly. Next time you're pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that everyone else was going faster than the speed limit, too. See if he says that, in that case, you're off the hook.

That's actually a great analogy. Everyone does speed and the unlucky ones get punished for doing what everyone else is doing.

I think my biggest issue was that there was no logical scale of punishment. Should have been a game or two at first, then 6, then 12, then a full season. To go from 0 to a total season is extreme.

Your punishment system would work if players and coaches told the truth. They didn't.

Again...the bounty program punishments would have been minimal if the players and coaches didn't cover it up.

Do you think it's fair the Patriots got singled out in Spygate?

Again, I'm sure they weren't the only ones but I didn't mind the Spygate punishment as much probably only since it didn't take away livelihoods. A fine or lost draft picks hurts but those involved were still allowed to make a living in their profession. Vilma and Peyton are not being allowed to earn a living in their profession for a year. I'm just wondering why there wasn't the typical scale of punishment in this case like there is for drugs, or flagrant hits.

[WSU151]

Exactly. Next time you're pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that everyone else was going faster than the speed limit, too. See if he says that, in that case, you're off the hook.

That's actually a great analogy. Everyone does speed and the unlucky ones get punished for doing what everyone else is doing.

I think my biggest issue was that there was no logical scale of punishment. Should have been a game or two at first, then 6, then 12, then a full season. To go from 0 to a total season is extreme.

Your punishment system would work if players and coaches told the truth. They didn't.

Again...the bounty program punishments would have been minimal if the players and coaches didn't cover it up.

Do you think it's fair the Patriots got singled out in Spygate?

Again, I'm sure they weren't the only ones but I didn't mind the Spygate punishment as much probably only since it didn't take away livelihoods. A fine or lost draft picks hurts but those involved were still allowed to make a living in their profession. Vilma and Peyton are not being allowed to earn a living in their profession for a year. I'm just wondering why there wasn't the typical scale of punishment in this case like there is for drugs, or flagrant hits.

Again, it's all about the extent of the cover up and the lies. It's a lot harder to lie about urine analysis and/or flagrant hits.

[rams80]

How about just "don't lie to the Commissioner".

Is that done in all locker rooms from high school up to the NFL?

I'm sure it is. A coach/player even in high school would be stupid to admit to a principal that this took place. Of course they'd be suspended, etc. Look at Cole Hammels for the Phillies, looks like he'll be suspended for telling the truth.

Maybe the Saints had it coming, but I just feel everyone is guilty and this should be addressed in public, and the punishments known by the players, owners, public... THEN if someone continues, sure, suspend.

Look, I know Serie A is racked with cheating and generally shady behavior, but over here it's slightly less common. And lying is always punished worse than the initial offense.

[Gothamite]

I'm just wondering why there wasn't the typical scale of punishment in this case like there is for drugs, or flagrant hits.

Because those are not analogous situations.

There is precedent for getting caught lying to the Commissioner; you sit. Anyone who was paying attention during the Michael Vick mess knows that.

The Saints involved knew that this Commissioner has a heavy hand when it comes to punishments, we've heard players moan and whinge enough about that the past few years. What did they think would happen when he learned about their massive, ongoing cover-up and flagrant flaunting of not only League rules but a series of specific instructions to cease and desist?

[Sterling84]

www.cafepress.com/mannalive

[hawk36]

I'm just wondering why there wasn't the typical scale of punishment in this case like there is for drugs, or flagrant hits.

Because those are not analogous situations.

There is precedent for getting caught lying to the Commissioner; you sit. Anyone who was paying attention during the Michael Vick mess knows that.

The Saints involved knew that this Commissioner has a heavy hand when it comes to punishments, we've heard players moan and whinge enough about that the past few years. What did they think would happen when he learned about their massive, ongoing cover-up and flagrant flaunting of not only League rules but a series of specific instructions to cease and desist?

Well, I for one hope that the commish will then step it up and treat illegal flagrant hits, that actually harm a player, as harshly as he has the Saints who simply talked about harming people. Sure it's bad to talk about it and lie about talking about it. But, to me, it's worse when you actually do it and ruin a player's season or career. If the commish is consistent, he will now ban players that actually hurt others with illegal hits.

[udubs03]

I'm just wondering why there wasn't the typical scale of punishment in this case like there is for drugs, or flagrant hits.

Because those are not analogous situations.

There is precedent for getting caught lying to the Commissioner; you sit. Anyone who was paying attention during the Michael Vick mess knows that.

The Saints involved knew that this Commissioner has a heavy hand when it comes to punishments, we've heard players moan and whinge enough about that the past few years. What did they think would happen when he learned about their massive, ongoing cover-up and flagrant flaunting of not only League rules but a series of specific instructions to cease and desist?

Well, I for one hope that the commish will then step it up and treat illegal flagrant hits, that actually harm a player, as harshly as he has the Saints who simply talked about harming people. Sure it's bad to talk about it and lie about talking about it. But, to me, it's worse when you actually do it and ruin a player's season or career. If the commish is consistent, he will now ban players that actually hurt others with illegal hits.

Did you even see the 2009 NFC Championship?

[hawk36]

Did you even see the 2009 NFC Championship?

Yes but it would seem the points of those that think the Saints deserved the punishment pertain specifically to what happened this past season after they were warned. In addition, maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall any flagrant hits in that 2009 game. Hellacious, powerful hits, yes, but nothing overtly illegal.

The 2011 playoff game vs SF (with the damning audio) was also very hard hitting but, again, I don't recall any overtly illegal or dirty hits.

[udubs03]

Did you even see the 2009 NFC Championship?

Yes but it would seem the points of those that think the Saints deserved the punishment pertain specifically to what happened this past season after they were warned. In addition, maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall any flagrant hits in that 2009 game. Hellacious, powerful hits, yes, but nothing overtly illegal.

The 2011 playoff game vs SF (with the damning audio) was also very hard hitting but, again, I don't recall any overtly illegal or dirty hits.

I'm one of the last people who would defend Brett Favre, but he got hit late a lot in that game, high and low. But that doesn't even matter. They had a program in place to encourage injury of the opponent, were warned several times to discontinue said program, they then not only continued the program after multiple warnings, but lied to the league commissioner and tried to cover up their improprieties. It doesn't matter if they ever actually hurt anyone.

That's not to say other teams weren't doing similar things, but this isn't some vendetta against the Saints?they were the league darling post-Katrina.

[hawk36]

Did you even see the 2009 NFC Championship?

Yes but it would seem the points of those that think the Saints deserved the punishment pertain specifically to what happened this past season after they were warned. In addition, maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall any flagrant hits in that 2009 game. Hellacious, powerful hits, yes, but nothing overtly illegal.

The 2011 playoff game vs SF (with the damning audio) was also very hard hitting but, again, I don't recall any overtly illegal or dirty hits.

I'm one of the last people who would defend Brett Favre, but he got hit late a lot in that game, high and low. But that doesn't even matter. They had a program in place to encourage injury of the opponent, were warned several times to discontinue said program, they then not only continued the program after multiple warnings, but lied to the league commissioner and tried to cover up their improprieties. It doesn't matter if they ever actually hurt anyone.

That's not to say other teams weren't doing similar things, but this isn't some vendetta against the Saints?they were the league darling post-Katrina.

I'll concede to the board that the Saints lied and needed to be punished. I just hope all of you will then join me in encouraging the NFL to be just as, if not more, harsh with players who actually injure other players with an illegal hit. I've always thought a proper punishment would be suspension until the injured player returns. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

[oldschoolvikings]

Did you even see the 2009 NFC Championship?

Yes but it would seem the points of those that think the Saints deserved the punishment pertain specifically to what happened this past season after they were warned. In addition, maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall any flagrant hits in that 2009 game. Hellacious, powerful hits, yes, but nothing overtly illegal.

The 2011 playoff game vs SF (with the damning audio) was also very hard hitting but, again, I don't recall any overtly illegal or dirty hits.

I'm one of the last people who would defend Brett Favre, but he got hit late a lot in that game, high and low. But that doesn't even matter. They had a program in place to encourage injury of the opponent, were warned several times to discontinue said program, they then not only continued the program after multiple warnings, but lied to the league commissioner and tried to cover up their improprieties. It doesn't matter if they ever actually hurt anyone.

That's not to say other teams weren't doing similar things, but this isn't some vendetta against the Saints?they were the league darling post-Katrina.

I'll concede to the board that the Saints lied and needed to be punished. I just hope all of you will then join me in encouraging the NFL to be just as, if not more, harsh with players who actually injure other players with an illegal hit. I've always thought a proper punishment would be suspension until the injured player returns. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

And would the player who hurt someone with an illegal hit repeatedly lie about doing it, claim it wasn't them, try to convince their teammates to help in the cover up, and then act like complete victims when the punishment finally came down? Yes, I think we can all agree that these actions would be deserving of severe punishment.

[robbman21]

Nice! What'd you do to get Doug Benson to wear the hoodie?

I gotta say the Doug Benson one is a first. I usually get another comedian, so much so that it gets annoying sometimes: Dane Cook.