NHL Expansion?

[Gothamite]

I don't know about that. Madison's a pretty small market. Could they draw enough from Milwaukee to make up the difference?

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

What's wrong with Florida? They seem to do ok, they're just fair-weather fans, kind of like Isles fans. The Isles have a huge fan base, but haven't been going the last few years because the team has been terrible. Now they have some young talented players and fans are interested again.

Phoenix on the other hand can't draw for . They've been a playoff team the last 3 years and were in the west finals last year.

[IceCap]

To borrow a phrase from admiral a second team in Toronto won't work because as big as the pie is in southern Ontario the Leafs have already eaten most of it.

A second GTA team would just have a few contrarian hangers on and fans who just sort if follow them when the Leafs are bad (assuming they're not bad as well) and only show up in force to see them play the Leafs.

[The_Admiral]

I don't know about that. Madison's a pretty small market. Could they draw enough from Milwaukee to make up the difference?

Not with weather like today they can't.

(Let this also indicate why proposing that Saskatoon can host an NHL team is ridiculous)

[jhans203]

I don't know about that. Madison's a pretty small market. Could they draw enough from Milwaukee to make up the difference?

That's a good question. They are the 85th TV market in the US (compared to 33rd to Milwaukee and 70th to Green Bay), but you'd think they could draw from Rockford and Central Illinois as well? Either way, Wisconsin deserves a NHL team.

[The_Admiral]

but you'd think they could draw from Rockford and Central Illinois as well?

I don't think you know where central Illinois is, and if you're depending on Rockford to supplement your market, you're dead before you're born.

Either way, Wisconsin deserves a NHL team.

Yes, Milwaukee, where there is an NHL-calibre arena and a large population base.

[Mac the Knife]

IF the NHL were to expand, two from a list of Quebec City, Hamilton an Houston would be my predictions. Toronto would likely block Hamilton or require a prohibitive territorial encroachment fee though. Quebec City is an obvious choice based on past history, while Houston's market is the largest in North America without an NHL presence.

[BigBubba]

To borrow a phrase from admiral a second team in Toronto won't work because as big as the pie is in southern Ontario the Leafs have already eaten most of it.

A second GTA team would just have a few contrarian hangers on and fans who just sort if follow them when the Leafs are bad (assuming they're not bad as well) and only show up in force to see them play the Leafs.

Hell, it's been 20 years and Ottawa games are still flooded with Leafs fans.

[DustDevil61]

Albuquerque would be a better market for an NBA team NHL team. Didn't Albuquerque have an old ABA team? Salt Lake City might have a better shot at an NHL expansion team. SLC Spires? Utah Saints? How on earth does Columbus have the Blue Jackets and Carolina have the Hurricanes?

When Dave Checketts owned the St. Louis Blues I secretly wanted him to move them to Salt Lake City and become the Utah Blues, so we could have the Jazz & Blues. I mean, how awesome would that be?

But, seriously, I think the Utah or Salt Lake Eagles would be a great name and nod to the Golden Eagles.

That said, Checketts has sold his share of Real Salt Lake to Dell Loy Hansen and did a radio interview where he was asked what pro team Utah would get next (if it did).¹ He didn't think the NHL had a shot (though he didn't specify why),² while the NFL is a ways off. He thinks that MLB is the next pro sport in line, and I agree. That said, I think that the NHL has a good shot here.³ He also thinks that the MLS has the potential to pass the NHL in popularity, FWIW (around the 20:00 mark).

1. Around the 20:30 mark in the interview.

2. One thing is probably going against the Jazz. Late Jazz owner Larry Miller also did an interview around 2007 or 2008 on the topic of Utah's next major pro sport, and said that attendance was low even for the Golden Eagles, though it was he that sold the team to Detroit interests who moved it, for whatever reason.

3. At least it would make a better market than Phoenix.

Don't mean to keep feeding this thread, but I'm very surprised that Utah is never mentioned as a candidate for relocation/expansion. Seems like prime hockey country, and just the Jazz to compete with.

The Jazz play at the same time that a Utah NHL team would play. That's a rather important consideration.

Also, EnergySolutions Arena isn't the best arena for hockey. Kind of on the same lines as the Coyotes time in America West Arena and the future of the Islanders in Brooklyn. Not to mention the Maverik Center where the Grizzlies play is too small ... about 10-12,000ish ... if that.

In order for a team, I think we'd have to see a new arena or major renovation of the Maverik Center.

But, I'd love an NHL team here in SLC!

In the Building Formerly Known as the Delta Center's⁴ defense, when retrofitted for hockey, center ice is at the center of the arena. You can't say the same for America West Arena or Barclays Center. I believe that the hockey capacity is in the 14,000 range.

I could see the BFKATDC as a temporary home should Utah ever gets an NHL team--play there for a season or two while the Maverik Center is being renovated. Of course, I've heard Jazz management mention a renovation to the BFKATDC within a decade, so if Utah were lucky enough to land an NHL team before any BFKATDC renovation, it could--in theory--be renovated to house both the Jazz and an NHL team.

4. I never liked the name "EnergySolutions Arena"--too much of a mouthful. The company was also recently sold, which may lead to another name change--so, I'll go with the BFKATDC.

[rams80]

but you'd think they could draw from Rockford and Central Illinois as well?

I don't think you know where central Illinois is, and if you're depending on Rockford to supplement your market, you're dead before you're born.

Peoria to Madison is 3 1/2 hours assuming no traffic (there's always traffic) Bloomington-Normal is 3 1/4, same thing with traffic. Both cities are pretty well spoken for between the Blues and the Blackhawks. Additionally nobody lives between Rockford and Peoria/Bloomington-Normal. This business model won't work.

[njmeadowlanders]

To borrow a phrase from admiral a second team in Toronto won't work because as big as the pie is in southern Ontario the Leafs have already eaten most of it.

A second GTA team would just have a few contrarian hangers on and fans who just sort if follow them when the Leafs are bad (assuming they're not bad as well) and only show up in force to see them play the Leafs.

This is spot on. It's the same reason two-team cities won't work anymore. If say, the Mets had never been created back in 1960 (started in '62) and years down the line in the "modern" era of major league sports, there would be no way the Yankees would've allowed another team into NYC. Never in a million years. Same thing with everyone who always says "Chicago could support a second NFL team" or whatever. It's too late in the game for two-city teams. In the earlier part of the 20th century it was one thing. You won't be seeing it again any time soon.

[jhans203]

but you'd think they could draw from Rockford and Central Illinois as well?

I don't think you know where central Illinois is, and if you're depending on Rockford to supplement your market, you're dead before you're born.

Peoria to Madison is 3 1/2 hours assuming no traffic (there's always traffic) Bloomington-Normal is 3 1/4, same thing with traffic. Both cities are pretty well spoken for between the Blues and the Blackhawks. Additionally nobody lives between Rockford and Peoria/Bloomington-Normal. This business model won't work.

Sorry, I didn't mean, Central Illinois. More Northern Central Illinois. But, the more I think about it, you're right ... Milwaukee is the better option.

[jhans203]

Albuquerque would be a better market for an NBA team NHL team. Didn't Albuquerque have an old ABA team? Salt Lake City might have a better shot at an NHL expansion team. SLC Spires? Utah Saints? How on earth does Columbus have the Blue Jackets and Carolina have the Hurricanes?

When Dave Checketts owned the St. Louis Blues I secretly wanted him to move them to Salt Lake City and become the Utah Blues, so we could have the Jazz & Blues. I mean, how awesome would that be?

But, seriously, I think the Utah or Salt Lake Eagles would be a great name and nod to the Golden Eagles.

That said, Checketts has sold his share of Real Salt Lake to Dell Loy Hansen and did a radio interview where he was asked what pro team Utah would get next (if it did).¹ He didn't think the NHL had a shot (though he didn't specify why),² while the NFL is a ways off. He thinks that MLB is the next pro sport in line, and I agree. That said, I think that the NHL has a good shot here.³ He also thinks that the MLS has the potential to pass the NHL in popularity, FWIW (around the 20:00 mark).

1. Around the 20:30 mark in the interview.

2. One thing is probably going against the Jazz. Late Jazz owner Larry Miller also did an interview around 2007 or 2008 on the topic of Utah's next major pro sport, and said that attendance was low even for the Golden Eagles, though it was he that sold the team to Detroit interests who moved it, for whatever reason.

3. At least it would make a better market than Phoenix.

Don't mean to keep feeding this thread, but I'm very surprised that Utah is never mentioned as a candidate for relocation/expansion. Seems like prime hockey country, and just the Jazz to compete with.

The Jazz play at the same time that a Utah NHL team would play. That's a rather important consideration.

Also, EnergySolutions Arena isn't the best arena for hockey. Kind of on the same lines as the Coyotes time in America West Arena and the future of the Islanders in Brooklyn. Not to mention the Maverik Center where the Grizzlies play is too small ... about 10-12,000ish ... if that.

In order for a team, I think we'd have to see a new arena or major renovation of the Maverik Center.

But, I'd love an NHL team here in SLC!

In the Building Formerly Known as the Delta Center's⁴ defense, when retrofitted for hockey, center ice is at the center of the arena. You can't say the same for America West Arena or Barclays Center. I believe that the hockey capacity is in the 14,000 range.

I could see the BFKATDC as a temporary home should Utah ever gets an NHL team--play there for a season or two while the Maverik Center is being renovated. Of course, I've heard Jazz management mention a renovation to the BFKATDC within a decade, so if Utah were lucky enough to land an NHL team before any BFKATDC renovation, it could--in theory--be renovated to house both the Jazz and an NHL team.

4. I never liked the name "EnergySolutions Arena"--too much of a mouthful. The company was also recently sold, which may lead to another name change--so, I'll go with the BFKATDC.

I completely agree with you. I think MLB would be a great option for the SLC. I could see a new ballpark built somewhere around the Gateway and Rio Grande station. I've secretly wished someone would move the A's out here if San Jose doesn't work for them. Heck even Tampa Bay or an expansion team would be great!

[aci]

As far as the second GTA team thing goes, I think that even if their fanbase would be poor, they could be very profitable. I'm from the Niagara Region, and when someone around here says "I'm going to a Leaf game," it is simply assumed they are going to watch the Leafs play a road game in Buffalo. Hell, Leaf fans go to watch games between Buffalo and another team just to see some live NHL hockey. If there was a new GTA team (say, Markham), they would sell out every game just with the overflow of demand from the Leafs' fanbase.

It might take them a while to get entrenched and have their own fans, but they will never have trouble selling tickets, which is the more important thing. It's all about the money, not who's cheering for who. If people are buying tickets and showing up, they can root for the guy who hits the button for the goal horn for all it matters. If anything, the franchise it will negatively affect is the Sabres, because they draw a lot of fans and season ticket holders from Niagara and the Hamilton area... very few of those people actually care about the Sabres, though, from my experience. Even when they were good, I think I saw about 3 people wearing Sabres gear.

[pianoknight]

How do you fix a broken system? Make it bigger! It's such a horrible idea, I think they might just go for it.

I don't follow hockey. At all. It bores me.

But Doug is 100% accurate and the economics check out regardless of sport/industry. I'm pretty sure that the way to spiral right back into another lockout is to bloat the league past the point of saturation.

I can hardly wait for the Obama-NHL Bailout. "TOO BIG TO FAIL!"

[gosioux76]

Since we're all having such fun speculating, I'll play along.

Seattle and Quebec City are the likeliest candidates, but I predict one of them will land a team through relocation. So I offer up Portland. The league could pull an MLS-like move and create hockey's version of the Cascadia Cup, creating a three-way regional rivalry between Portland-Seattle-Vancouver.

The pluses: There's an NHL ready arena in the Rose Garden, a fan base that already supports the game at the junior hockey level, and only one other Big 4 league in town, and a hockey history that includes the awesomely named Portland Buckaroos.

The negatives: Paul Allen would need to sign off on it, and Portland has the same problem as Salt Lake to overcome -- it's questionable whether the market is generate the required corporate support for two big-league teams.

It'll never happen, which probably means that it will.

[OnWis97]

I don't know about that. Madison's a pretty small market. Could they draw enough from Milwaukee to make up the difference?

No. The Kohl Center is a tremendous hockey arena, but I am not sure they have enough luxury boxes. Plus, when you replace the "student section" with "general public" it's even more of a parking issue. Also, Madison is not a hockey-crazed place. I don't think the Kohl Center has ever sold out for hockey (if so it's rare) and the NHL prices would chase some people away. If the NHL can work in Wisconsin, it's going to have to be Milwaukee.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

To borrow a phrase from admiral a second team in Toronto won't work because as big as the pie is in southern Ontario the Leafs have already eaten most of it.

A second GTA team would just have a few contrarian hangers on and fans who just sort if follow them when the Leafs are bad (assuming they're not bad as well) and only show up in force to see them play the Leafs.

This is spot on. It's the same reason two-team cities won't work anymore. If say, the Mets had never been created back in 1960 (started in '62) and years down the line in the "modern" era of major league sports, there would be no way the Yankees would've allowed another team into NYC. Never in a million years. Same thing with everyone who always says "Chicago could support a second NFL team" or whatever. It's too late in the game for two-city teams. In the earlier part of the 20th century it was one thing. You won't be seeing it again any time soon.

agreed. I remember when the Grizzlies were leaving Vancouver, suburban Chicago was a serious contendor, and I never understood it. The Bulls have a pretty solid stronghold.

[drdougfresh]

How do you fix a broken system? Make it bigger! It's such a horrible idea, I think they might just go for it.

But Doug is 100% accurate and the economics check out regardless of sport/industry. I'm pretty sure that the way to spiral right back into another lockout is to bloat the league past the point of saturation.

I think you'd hit that point at 20 teams. But adding more should help, right?

[rams80]

I don't know about that. Madison's a pretty small market. Could they draw enough from Milwaukee to make up the difference?

No. The Kohl Center is a tremendous hockey arena, but I am not sure they have enough luxury boxes. Plus, when you replace the "student section" with "general public" it's even more of a parking issue. Also, Madison is not a hockey-crazed place. I don't think the Kohl Center has ever sold out for hockey (if so it's rare) and the NHL prices would chase some people away. If the NHL can work in Wisconsin, it's going to have to be Milwaukee.

To be honest, I think the Packer model only works for the sport of American football because there are only 8 games and they usually are on weekends. 8 games means you aren't blowing too much on gas or asking off work too much and the scarcity elevates the game to "event" status and makes it easier to plan ahead for and get hotel rooms if necessary (hell, you need to plan ahead for the game).