NHL Expansion?

[jhans203]

I completely agree with you. I think MLB would be a great option for the SLC. I could see a new ballpark built somewhere around the Gateway and Rio Grande station. I've secretly wished someone would move the A's out here if San Jose doesn't work for them. Heck even Tampa Bay or an expansion team would be great!

You seem to have a lot of secret relocation wishes. I hate to burst one of your theoretical bubbles, but there wont be a development of the size needed for a pro sports team in the "Greektown" area. There's too little room and too many businesses that have no desire to move...oh, and the transit hub and homeless shelter. In the case of both sports, they would be best served to rebuild the footprints they already have. The current stadia are already in desirable locations near restaurants, parking lots, and train stops...no development needed!

In terms of capacity, Maverik Center (which honestly should be a minor palace for fans of Canadian national hockey) probably only needs to add 5,000 seats, making it the 24th largest NHL arena. That would be plenty big for SLC/West Valley. Spring Mobile Ballpark, on the other hand, would probably need to double in size, but it has space to do so.

I think there's plenty of room around Greektown or possibly the Rio Grande station, especially since it's close to the Central Hub. Heck, it might pump a bit more life into the Gateway area with more business. I don't see a permanent MLB stadium working on 1300 South, sure it's close to the TRAX station, but the Central Hub/Greek Town has the luxury of Front Runner and TRAX making it easier for fans from Provo to Ogden to attend games. I really believe there'd be great potential in that area. Plus, I really, really, really would love a baseball team here in SLC.

But, I agree with you on the Maverik Center, that'd be a perfect location for a renovated arena. I'd be interesting to see how they would build onto it.

[jhans203]

I'm having trouble with the idea going around that Seattle should get the Coyotes while Quebec City should get an expansion team because Seattle needs a cheap team on a platter while Quebec City can pay out the ass to eat crap with a spoon, and should for the greater good. Seattle doesn't have an arena for hockey, it hasn't started construction on one, it won't be an anchor tenant, and it doesn't have a national television channel. It's not that great a situation. They can wait a few years.

I think the best solution if (when) the Coyotes move is to move them to Quebec City where they can play in the old Coliseum while the new arena is being built. Then expand in a year or two giving Seattle and Markham enough time to build their arenas. That makes sense to me.

[Brian in Boston]

I'm having trouble with the idea going around that Seattle should get the Coyotes while Quebec City should get an expansion team because Seattle needs a cheap team on a platter while Quebec City can pay out the ass to eat crap with a spoon, and should for the greater good.

You may well be having trouble with said idea, but I dare say that the existing NHL owners - who will split the fees taken in from the rumored 31st and 32nd franchises - are of the mind that potential ownership groups in Quebec City and Markham would, given the cultural importance of the sport of hockey in Canada, be willing to pony-up far more in expansion fees than their brethren in Seattle might.

Sure, the NHL suits could take $60 million (the amount True North paid on top of the franchise purchase price in order to relocate the Thrashers to Winnipeg) from Quebecor right now. Or, they could dither in the Valley of the Sun for another few months until the Sacramento Kings relocation/Seattle arena situation works itself out. If it turns out that the Kings are on their way to Seattle and a new arena is going to be built... Voila! ... the Coyotes are sold to someone interested in setting up shop in the Emerald City and an additional $60-to-70 million relocation fee is collected. Then, the NHL suits turn around and take an estimated $275-to-300 million expansion fee from Quebecor... which Quebecor will gladly be willing to pay precisely because their team will be an anchor tenant, because they will manage the building for the municipal/provincial government, because they will have a national television channel, and because the sport of hockey is a Canadian national obsession.

Worst case scenario for the NHL owners? The NBA Kings don't relocate to Seattle, the arena isn't going to get built in the short-term, and relocating the Coyotes to Quebec becomes the league's financial "fallback" plan.

[vman]

People can whine all they want, but Toronto is still the safest bet for a successful team. The population in the area guarantees constant sell-outs

Who is whining? The idea of a second team in Toronto looks fantastic on paper, but logically speaking it probably won't be a massive overnight success. Yes, the Toronto area does have a large population - of Leafs fans. You can't just plunk a second team in Toronto and expect many people to shift their loyalty from the Toronto-freaking-Maple Leafs. I'm not opposed to having a second team there but with the Leafs being so heavily engraved in Toronto's culture for almost a hundred years, I'm not even sure how or if this will work out.

As for names, if this team is being placed in Markham you could call them the Dragons for its nickname of the Dragon City. Or the Stallions with the Canadian Horse being a national symbol. That's about all I can think of as I don't know the history of the area too well.

Who's whining? You obviously didn't read some of the comments on the first page did you? Do you think Quebecers or Hamiltonians won't be complaining if Toronto gets a second team before they get a first?

As for the new team having to compete with the Leafs for fans, it's not going to be an issue. Like others already pointed out, many of the fans attending these games will be Leafs fans, simply because they can't get Leafs tickets but still want to see NHL hockey without having to drive to Buffalo. The rest of the fan base will be gradually made up of the millions of people who have moved to Toronto from other parts of the country (or other countries), most of which don't have any ties to the Leafs. The Senators didn't start off with any fans of their own, everyone who went to the games grew up a Leafs, Habs or Bruins fan. But that changed over the years as they took to claiming the new team as their own. They'll never have the appeal of the original six teams, but they now do have their own dedicated fan base, which is exactly what will happen with a team in Markham. They'll always be the second tier option, just like the Nets, Mets, Clippers, Islanders, etc, but they'll sell out consistently despite that from the day they open the doors. With so many competing sports channels and networks, they should have no problems securing a tv deal either, even if they may get dismal viewership to start (just like TFC and Raptors games).

[The_Admiral]

$300 million is pretty steep considering they can't sell this team for $170 million with generous subsidies, and the Blues were valued at like $140 million, the Lightning at $90. Besides, they've lost a good bit of money on these last four years of dithering. Maybe some owners don't want to dither anymore.

[Brian in Boston]

$300 million is pretty steep considering they can't sell this team for $170 million with generous subsidies, and the Blues were valued at like $140 million, the Lightning at $90.

They can't sell the Coyotes for $170 million so long as the understanding is that the team is staying in Glendale. The Blues were valued at $140 million as a St. Louis-based franchise. The Lightning's value was $90 million in Tampa Bay. The value of an expansion franchise based in Canada - more importantly, based in Greater Toronto or owned by a media conglomerate like Quebecor - is an entirely different scenario.

Mark my words: if NHL expansion to 32 teams comes to pass in the next 3 to 5 years, with Greater Toronto and Quebec being the sites, the fee for each franchise will be $275 minimum.

[The_Admiral]

So why isn't Seattle worth $275 million or thereabouts if it's such a slam dunk that they have to get in on it with a crappy 12,000-seat arena and no guarantee of a replacement? And why would the notoriously self-hating NHL expand to two Canadian cities at the same time when they could expand to one Canadian and one American? And have they learned nothing from the fact that expansion was basically a giant Ponzi scheme that broke the whole league for a year?

I think the relocation fee will end up being higher than $60 million for Quebec, anyway, because they can. Maybe they'll even add a French Language Fee to be even more usurious than they already are.

[Brian in Boston]

So why isn't Seattle worth $275 million or thereabouts if it's such a slam dunk...

Because Seattle, while a potentially solid NHL market, isn't 1) Toronto (the 7th-largest metro area in the USA and Canada, as well as located in a country where hockey borders on being a religion) and 2) won't be home to a franchise owned by Quebecor, a multimedia conglomerate with holdings in newspaper/magazine/book publishing, broadcasting, cable television, web technology and integration, internet access, internet portals, business communications, local telephony, and retailing.

that they have to get in on it with a crappy 12,000-seat arena and no guarantee of a replacement?

Who said the NHL is so gung-ho on getting into the Seattle marketplace that the league is willing to do so without a guarantee that a potential franchise in the city would - sooner, rather than later - be able to set-up shop in a new, state-of-the-art arena? Trust me, the possibility of Chris Hansen's proposed arena plan coming to fruition is the primary reason that Seattle is on the NHL's radar. Without the promise of said building, Seattle wouldn't even be getting mentioned in the same breath as Quebec and Markham right now. Should it become apparent that said arena isn't getting built in the near future, Seattle will fade as a relocation candidate.

And why would the notoriously self-hating NHL expand to two Canadian cities at the same time when they could expand to one Canadian and one American?

Because the very fact that the league is even considering expansion at this point is driven by the fact that the owners wish to cash-in on what they believe will be a veritable gold-mine of expansion revenue. Further, to their collective mind, the best way to maximize said expansion revenue is by selling the proposed 31st and 32nd franchises to a pair of Canadian cities... markets where they believe the ownership groups will be willing to spend a greater amount of money to land an NHL franchise than potential buyers in American cities would.

And have they learned nothing from the fact that expansion was basically a giant Ponzi scheme that broke the whole league for a year?

You want the truth? The NHL's current owners are so desperate to cash-in on this proposed expansion fee bonanza as a way of recouping some of the money they've been pumping into the Coyotes, that they are willing to ignore the damage that over-expansion did to the league in the 1990s.

I think the relocation fee will end up being higher than $60 million for Quebec, anyway, because they can. Maybe they'll even add a French Language Fee to be even more usurious than they already are.

Don't get me wrong: If the NHL's owners absolutely, positively must relocate the Coyotes to Quebec, they'll do so. And they'll squeeze as high a relocation fee, on top of the purchase price, out of Quebecor as they possibly can.

That said, they'd prefer it if Hansen's bid for the NBA Kings is successful, paving the way for arena construction in Seattle to get underway, and allowing them to line-up a bidder willing to purchase the Coyotes and relocate the team to Seattle. Which would ultimately allow them to put the real financial squeeze on Quebec and Greater Toronto for a pair of expansion franchises.

[Foxxtrot44]

I think there's plenty of room around Greektown or possibly the Rio Grande station, especially since it's close to the Central Hub. Heck, it might pump a bit more life into the Gateway area with more business. I don't see a permanent MLB stadium working on 1300 South, sure it's close to the TRAX station, but the Central Hub/Greek Town has the luxury of Front Runner and TRAX making it easier for fans from Provo to Ogden to attend games. I really believe there'd be great potential in that area. Plus, I really, really, really would love a baseball team here in SLC.

But, I agree with you on the Maverik Center, that'd be a perfect location for a renovated arena. I'd be interesting to see how they would build onto it.

I'll try to be clear(er) and not bore people with the joy of Salt Lake Redevelopment. I worked for SLCRDA and there is NEVER going to be a stadium behind the Gateway or Rio Grande. It's a neat idea, but completely untenable and counter to the vision that the RDA has for West Salt Lake. It's called the Depot District project and it seeks to make the area look similat to the Artspace they have already built.

[IceCap]

Brian in Boston raises a lot of good points. Not in the sense that expansion is a good idea, but in the sense that he seems to understand why the owners think it's a good idea.

That being said it is a bit funny that a few years ago he was saying Canada's near religious-like attitude towards hockey was precisely the reason why no team, not the Coyotes, not anyone, would be moving north of the border because "in the NHL's mind the market is saturated." Now that attitude makes expansion into Quebec City and the Toronto suburbs a sure thing

Oh how four years, one relocation that paid off big time, millions wasted in the desert, and four potential ownership groups (three of which had no money) changes things

[illwauk]

People can whine all they want, but Toronto is still the safest bet for a successful team. The population in the area guarantees constant sell-outs

Who is whining? The idea of a second team in Toronto looks fantastic on paper, but logically speaking it probably won't be a massive overnight success. Yes, the Toronto area does have a large population - of Leafs fans. You can't just plunk a second team in Toronto and expect many people to shift their loyalty from the Toronto-freaking-Maple Leafs. I'm not opposed to having a second team there but with the Leafs being so heavily engraved in Toronto's culture for almost a hundred years, I'm not even sure how or if this will work out.

As for names, if this team is being placed in Markham you could call them the Dragons for its nickname of the Dragon City. Or the Stallions with the Canadian Horse being a national symbol. That's about all I can think of as I don't know the history of the area too well.

Who's whining? You obviously didn't read some of the comments on the first page did you?

I did, and I also feel compelled to ask, who's whining?

Do you think Quebecers or Hamiltonians won't be complaining if Toronto gets a second team before they get a first?

As well they should. Sticking a second team in Toronto for the sake of "guaranteed sellouts" is asinine, especially if that team turns out to be bad. See: LA Clippers, pre-Blake Griffin.

As for the new team having to compete with the Leafs for fans, it's not going to be an issue. Like others already pointed out, many of the fans attending these games will be Leafs fans, simply because they can't get Leafs tickets but still want to see NHL hockey without having to drive to Buffalo.

You think people who've been loyal to a franchise that's a local civic institution are going to support what would be a division rival because they can't get tickets to see the team they grew up following?

The rest of the fan base will be gradually made up of the millions of people who have moved to Toronto from other parts of the country (or other countries), most of which don't have a team of their own.

Transplants, by and large tend to not see local teams unless the team they grew up with or a superstar player is in town. Again, see the pre-Griffin Clippers.

The Senators didn't start off with any fans of their own, everyone who went to the games grew up a Leafs, Habs or Bruins fan. But that changed over the years as they took to claiming the new team as their own. They'll never have the appeal of the original six teams, but they now do have their own dedicated fan base, which is exactly what will happen with a team in Markham.

No... it won't.

Ottawa is geographically and culturally distinct from Toronto. That's why the 49ers and Raiders, Giants and A's, Cubs and White Sox, Yankees and Mets, all work because of this. The Giants and Jets play in the same building now, they shared the Yankees and Mets respective stadiums and geographic alliances for an entire generation before that. The Nets already tried being the second New York team, now they're representing a distinct geographic area of it.

They'll always be the second tier option, just like the Nets, Mets, Clippers, Islanders, etc, but they'll sell out consistently despite that from the day they open the doors.

I think you should probably look up how often those teams have actually sold out, historically.

With so many competing sports channels and networks, they should have no problems securing a tv deal either, even if they may get dismal viewership to start (just like TFC and Raptors games).

it... I'm sold. This round of expansion is going to be even better than the 90s.

[jhans203]

I think there's plenty of room around Greektown or possibly the Rio Grande station, especially since it's close to the Central Hub. Heck, it might pump a bit more life into the Gateway area with more business. I don't see a permanent MLB stadium working on 1300 South, sure it's close to the TRAX station, but the Central Hub/Greek Town has the luxury of Front Runner and TRAX making it easier for fans from Provo to Ogden to attend games. I really believe there'd be great potential in that area. Plus, I really, really, really would love a baseball team here in SLC.

But, I agree with you on the Maverik Center, that'd be a perfect location for a renovated arena. I'd be interesting to see how they would build onto it.

I'll try to be clear(er) and not bore people with the joy of Salt Lake Redevelopment. I worked for SLCRDA and there is NEVER going to be a stadium behind the Gateway or Rio Grande. It's a neat idea, but completely untenable and counter to the vision that the RDA has for West Salt Lake. It's called the Depot District project and it seeks to make the area look similat to the Artspace they have already built.

Well ... either way, I'd love MLB here in Salt Lake City.

[IceCap]

You'd think three lockouts would convince the league and Gary to change up the business plan, but no. Status quo, full speed!

As for the new team having to compete with the Leafs for fans, it's not going to be an issue. Like others already pointed out, many of the fans attending these games will be Leafs fans, simply because they can't get Leafs tickets but still want to see NHL hockey without having to drive to Buffalo.

You think people who've been loyal to a franchise that's a local civic institution are going to support what would be a division rival because they can't get tickets to see the team they grew up following?

I'm not from Toronto, but I live close enough that I could realistically make the drive once or twice a week if I could land tickets. Take it from someone supposedly in the part of southern Ontario being "under served" by the Leafs. I'm only making the drive to see the Toronto Fighting Mongooses play if they're going up against the Maple Leafs.

[BigBubba]

The Senators didn't start off with any fans of their own, everyone who went to the games grew up a Leafs, Habs or Bruins fan. But that changed over the years as they took to claiming the new team as their own. They'll never have the appeal of the original six teams, but they now do have their own dedicated fan base, which is exactly what will happen with a team in Markham.

No... it won't.

Ottawa is geographically and culturally distinct from Toronto. That's why the 49ers and Raiders, Giants and A's, Cubs and White Sox, Yankees and Mets, all work because of this. The Giants and Jets play in the same building now, they shared the Yankees and Mets respective stadiums and geographic alliances for an entire generation before that. The Nets already tried being the second New York team, now they're representing a distinct geographic area of it.

I grew up in Markham. It's deep into the heart of Leafs territory to the extent where it's pretty much Toronto in that respect. It would be a helluva lot harder for that team to establish their own dedicated following compared to Ottawa, who, even after twenty years still have a solid Leafs following in their territory.

[GeorgesL]

First, Toronto already has a team, the Maple Leafs.

Second, Quebec is building a new arena, and is expected to be part of the expansion.

Third, getting back to Toronto, they will be competing with fans from Buffalo, even if this new team were to be put in Hamilton, which I wouldn't mind, they'll still be fighting for fans.

[Brian in Boston]

That being said it is a bit funny that a few years ago he was saying Canada's near religious-like attitude towards hockey was precisely the reason why no team, not the Coyotes, not anyone, would be moving north of the border because "in the NHL's mind the market is saturated."

Did I actually say, "in the NHL's mind the market is saturated"? I'd have thought I'd said something to the effect of "in the NHL's mind the Canadian market is captive". CAPTIVE. If I didn't, I should have. Because that is what the Canadian market for the NHL is: captive. Saturated? Not particularly, no... though I do think that beyond Quebec City and a second team in Greater Toronto, things begin to get a bit dicy with regard to guaranteed success. Captive? Without a doubt.

Which is precisely the reason that, at the very least, a majority of the NHL's owners have repeatedly opted to prop-up the Coyotes in the Phoenix Metropolitan Area for the past four years, rather than allowing the team to relocate to a Canadian market.

You see, while Canadian hockey fans will complain about the fact that Bettman-and-Company have spent the last four years bending over backwards to maintain NHL franchises in "non-traditional", American Sunbelt cities while Canadian markets have gone ignored, when push comes to shove that is all that the vast majority of said Canadian fans will do. Complain. What they won't do is turn their backs on the NHL and forego major-pro hockey in numbers that worry the NHL brass. Why? Because they are, culturally, a captive audience. And the NHL owners count on that.

Now that attitude makes expansion into Quebec City and the Toronto suburbs a sure thing

In combination with certain other developments it does.

The possible construction of a Seattle-based state-of-the-art arena capable of playing host to the Coyotes has the NHL's owners thinking that they might be able to take advantage of a "perfect storm" of relocation and expansion.

Combine that possibility for the Coyotes with the "captive" attitude on the part of Canadian hockey fans - particularly those in Quebec City and Greater Toronto - and a scenario arises whereby the NHL can ramp-up the pressure on potential Canadian ownership groups by taking the Coyotes off of the market via relocation to another American city. Suddenly - though there are always whisperings about the long-term prospects for the likes of the Panthers, Blue Jackets, Predators, or Hurricanes in their current homes - there are no teams that seem imminently ready to relocate. As a result, the value of an NHL team to a market like Quebec City becomes even greater. Then, a city like Markham suddenly gets serious about exploring construction of an arena, meaning that more than one Canadian community is vying for any NHL team that should find itself on the market. The competition increases the value for such a team yet again.

What next? Voila!!! The hot, new rumor becomes that the NHL might actually be entertaining thoughts of expansion and potential ownership groups in Quebec City and Markham fall all over themselves to pay an expansion fee that dwarfs what either would have had to pay to secure the Coyotes. Why? Because expansion beyond 32 teams isn't likely to happen in our lifetimes.

Oh how four years, one relocation that paid off big time, millions wasted in the desert, and four potential ownership groups (three of which had no money) changes things

On that, we can agree. And the possibility of a state-of-the-art arena coming on-line in the 15th-largest metro area and 12th-largest TV market in the US doesn't hurt either.

[rams80]

Soooo....just tossing this out there.

Who owns the Seattle Coyotes Brian? Hansen doesn't necessarily want to, and anyone else would be the secondary partner in the arena lease, and there seems to be a bit of a trend indicating that millionaire and billionaire sports team owners don't want to play second banana to another millionaire or billionaire's sports team.

[Brian in Boston]

Who owns the Seattle Coyotes Brian? Hansen doesn't necessarily want to, and anyone else would be the secondary partner in the arena lease, and there seems to be a bit of a trend indicating that millionaire and billionaire sports team owners don't want to play second banana to another millionaire or billionaire's sports team.

The name that has most often been linked with bringing an NHL franchise to Seattle - at least over the past couple of years - is Don Levin, principal in Chicago-based DRL Enterprises and owner of the American Hockey League's Chicago Wolves. He was originally involved in talks with parties looking into building an arena in Bellevue. Once Chris Hansen's plan to build an arena in Seattle to lure an NBA team surfaced, Levin then made it known to Hansen that he'd be interested in bringing an NHL franchise into said facility as a tenant.

According to a KING5 television report yesterday, Levin recently contacted Hansen to congratulate him on his potential purchase of the Sacramento Kings and said he'd like to work with Hansen in the future.

[vman]

I did, and I also feel compelled to ask, who's whining?

Well, on the first page alone:

"with one of those teams being a second team in the Greater Toronto Area (uggggg)"

"Just give us the Tigers back and call it a day. /bitter Hamiltonian". This from a guy who has "2nd Toronto team? Oh please" under his avatar.

"I do find it funny/sad/typical that the NHL said no to a team in Hamilton but is seriously considering a second Toronto team.Oh well."

"How in the entire HELL is a second Toronto team preferable to a team in Hamilton?"

Guess it's back to reading 101 for you.

You think people who've been loyal to a franchise that's a local civic institution are going to support what would be a division rival because they can't get tickets to see the team they grew up following?

There are hundreds of thousands of NHL hockey fans in Toronto who are not Leafs fans. I grew up cheering for the Habs, my brother was an Oilers fan. The studies have been done. The fan base and desire for a team and tickets is there.

Transplants, by and large tend to not see local teams unless the team they grew up with or a superstar player is in town. Again, see the pre-Griffin Clippers.

I know dozens of transplants all over the States and in Canada, and that's not the case at all. They're divided when their old home team swings by, but they don't shun the local team at all. Several friends have become STH for basketball and hockey teams just months after moving.

Ottawa is geographically and culturally distinct from Toronto. That's why the 49ers and Raiders, Giants and A's, Cubs and White Sox, Yankees and Mets, all work because of this. The Giants and Jets play in the same building now, they shared the Yankees and Mets respective stadiums and geographic alliances for an entire generation before that. The Nets already tried being the second New York team, now they're representing a distinct geographic area of it.

Considering the proposed second Toronto team would be further apart geographically than the Chicago baseball teams, and nearly twice the distance between the Isles and Rangers, etc. your point is moot. You're obviously not familiar with the Toronto area, but there's a huge demographic, cultural and political divide between downtowners and those in the surrounding area. They haven't had a chance to be overtly distinct because they've only recently grown to a point where they could even begin to identify as their own region or think of supporting pro teams, but you have to start somewhere. Sure a lot of them are Leafs fans now, but if they have the opportunity to go to say 6 games a year as opposed to one every few years, they would no doubt grow to follow the new team. They're never going to be as profitable or desirable a ticket as the Leafs, but they can most definitely at the very least sell out on a consistent basis.

I think you should probably look up how often those teams have actually sold out, historically.

Yes, but the demand for NHL hockey is a lot greater in Toronto than the demand for second rate pro teams in those markets.

[BigBubba]

Considering the proposed second Toronto team would be further apart geographically than the Chicago baseball teams, and nearly twice the distance between the Isles and Rangers, etc. your point is moot. You're obviously not familiar with the Toronto area, but there's a huge demographic, cultural and political divide between downtowners and those in the surrounding area.

And you're clearly not familiar with the Greater Toronto Area. I have lived my whole life in Vaughan and Markham. I went to school there and grew up there. I have most of my friends and family there as well. Markham, Vaughan ("The City Above Toronto"), and whatever other suburban GTA cities are no different from Toronto. The citizens and the cities themselves act like, wish they were, or consider themselves Toronto. They're perfectly content being TO's little brothers, and those "huge demographic, cultural, and political divides" simply do not exist.