NBA C Jason Collins comes out as gay

[BlueSky]

Exactly. Many people on this very board fall under the ironic "intolerant" label they so eagerly throw on all who disagree.

Not really.

Not unless anyone is seriously advocating that your employer should be able to fire you just for disagreeing.

Not unless anyone is seriously advocating that you shouldn't be able to get married just for disagreeing.

People might be rude to you, and that's not right, but the two situations are hardly analogous.

Afraid I agree with vicfurth here. As for the bolded part, um, in many cases they can.

[Breakwood]

But what is the "gay lifestyle"? As cmm noted above, it's almost exactly the same as the lifestyle we all live.

I participate in the looking cute brunettes lifestyle. I hope I can have the same rights as everyone else.

[Gothamite]

Exactly. Many people on this very board fall under the ironic "intolerant" label they so eagerly throw on all who disagree.

Not really.

Not unless anyone is seriously advocating that your employer should be able to fire you just for disagreeing.

Not unless anyone is seriously advocating that you shouldn't be able to get married just for disagreeing.

People might be rude to you, and that's not right, but the two situations are hardly analogous.

Afraid I agree with vicfurth here. As for the bolded part, um, in many cases they can.

Other than "at will" contracts, which states would those be, then?

Any states where you can be fired just because somebody learns you are a conservative Christian?

[BlueSky]

Exactly. Many people on this very board fall under the ironic "intolerant" label they so eagerly throw on all who disagree.

Not really.

Not unless anyone is seriously advocating that your employer should be able to fire you just for disagreeing.

Not unless anyone is seriously advocating that you shouldn't be able to get married just for disagreeing.

People might be rude to you, and that's not right, but the two situations are hardly analogous.

Afraid I agree with vicfurth here. As for the bolded part, um, in many cases they can.

Other than "at will" contracts, which states would those be, then?

Any states where you can be fired just because somebody learns you are a conservative Christian?

Most any employer can fire someone and make it stick if they're smart about it. The reason cited may not be the real reason. I don't like that fact or advocate it but it's reality.

[vicfurth]

BlueSky is right about that. I haven't fired people for preference or for religious reasons (couldn't in good conscience). But you can always get nitpicky with matters of "company policy" and get away with it.

Heck, I actually lost job opportunities before because I had an iPhone instead of a Galaxy.

[Gothamite]

That's a different thing.

I'm taking about a situation where an employer can say outright "I'm firing you only because you're gay" and that's perfectly okay under the law.

Until the same holds true for conservative Christians anywhere in the United States, the comparison is absurd.

[OnWis97]

Yes, you can decide to fire someone for any silly reason (the team they like, their annoying voice, their love of Country music, their religion) and find some performance-related excuse. Goth's point is that it is literally legal in some number of states (i want to say 29) to say "You're gay? Well you're fired". (EDIT: Goth replied with the like while I was ranting below)

As for Broussard, that is a very, very complex discussion; not nearly as simple as "he's a bigot" vs. "he's just expressing his views."

• First off, he said it himself, all sins are the same. He specifically mentioned hetero sex not in wedlock. There are all sorts of stories of the exploits of hetero athletes notching their bedposts into a pile of sawdust. Has he ever gone on TV or into print to discuss that? Or is he just picking this issue because, this sin really is "special" in his eyes?
  
• There is no way he "just did what Collins did". Collins freed himself of living a lie. He judged nobody else. He decided he wanted to be able to tell people who he really is. Broussard said "yeah, well he's a sinner." He took it upon himself to talk about someone else.
  
• A lot of people think that inter-racial relations is a sin. What would everyone's reaction be if some TV personality came out and said "hey, it's not my business but I cannot support the lifestyle of Russel Wilson, Nick Collison, or their spouses of a different race." He'd just be saying how he feels, right? Would he have as many supporters?
  
• If he has the right to criticize Collins then we have the right to criticize him.
  
• Yeah, he has a right to feel that way and he has a right to say it. But I really, really hope, as this becomes more normal (and I am sorry to tell you, that's a done deal...it's happening) that more people do more than say "My religion says it's bad, so that's that." Plenty of people go deeper than that all the time. Broussard is not doing that. Stop talking about your religion (you know the one that not everyone has to follow...) and think about how you really feel. You. Not what you've been told to feel. I'll be honest; it's my big problem with religion. It's the reason that if I decided I needed spiritual guidance I would not even consider Christianity. I am supposed to accept someone's religion, but I cannot accept the idea that some people, just because they are gay are "less" than the rest of us. That's the gateway to bigotry. And to whatever extent that makes me intolerant, so be it. My slight back-peddle is that currently, the majority of Americans are fairly supportive of gay rights and something like 3/4 of Americans identify as Christian. So there is obviously some overlap.
  

Anyway, these are probably the growing pains we just have to go through. This happened, and some people are going to struggle with the acceptance. In 20 years, Brossard will look like the guy who tried to keep interracial couples out of a club looks today.

[njmeadowlanders]

• Yeah, he has a right to feel that way and he has a right to say it. But I really, really hope, as this becomes more normal (and I am sorry to tell you, that's a done deal...it's happening) that more people do more than say "My religion says it's bad, so that's that." Plenty of people go deeper than that all the time. Broussard is not doing that. Stop talking about your religion (you know the one that not everyone has to follow...) and think about how you really feel. You. Not what you've been told to feel. I'll be honest; it's my big problem with religion. It's the reason that if I decided I needed spiritual guidance I would not even consider Christianity. I am supposed to accept someone's religion, but I cannot accept the idea that some people, just because they are gay are "less" than the rest of us. That's the gateway to bigotry. And to whatever extent that makes me intolerant, so be it. My slight back-peddle is that currently, the majority of Americans are fairly supportive of gay rights and something like 3/4 of Americans identify as Christian. So there is obviously some overlap.
  

What I bolded is exactly what I feel the biggest problem is. Not just with gay rights, but a myriad of other issues as well. You can't be all gung-ho about the constitution AND push for religious ideals. You can't claim separation of church and state and then bring God into the conversation with laws and policy and whatever else. How about everyone that ISN'T Christian? Does that not matter? I'm Jewish, so why should I give a damn what it says in the new testament? (And in full disclosure, while I'm Jewish I really honestly don't do anything related to religion at any point in my daily life. It has zero bearing on what I do or who I am.)

Also, making something illegal because it's against the teaching of the Church: I don't understand why it has to be illegal in this (or any) country. You don't want gay people to get married? Then don't marry them in your church. Guess what: Your heterosexual marriage was licensed BY A STATE in this country. NOT your Church. Your STATE. You don't want people to have the right to be pro-choice? Then don't practice it. Just because someone else wants an abortion doesn't mean you yourself would have to if you don't.

Just be more open minded about others that don't share your set of values. That's all we can ask for.

End rant.

[nash61]

According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. If these Christian denominations aren't against homosexuality, they aren't doing a good enough job of letting everyone know.

Respect to Collins. I don't think I could imagine how hard it must have been for him.

According to a 2,000-year old book written by people who thought the world was flat, the sun revolved around the Earth, and that a remedy for mental illness was drilling holes in the head of the sufferer so that the demons could escape, homosexuality is a sin. As was a lot of other stuff today's people read, scoff at the idiocy of, and then proceed to ignore.

"[it is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" Isaiah 40:22

Also: http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2013/04/chris-broussard-an-example-of-true-tolerance/

[Sport]

If we're going to get into bible dissecting why don't we go through all the parts of the same book that denounces homosexuality?

[slapshot]

Here's the thing...when you use the word lifestyle it implies a choice is being made.

For many people (not necessarily our friends here), that's exactly the point.

But what is the "gay lifestyle"? As cmm noted above, it's almost exactly the same as the lifestyle we all live.

Jim Coilins doesn't live "the gay lifestyle", he lives the "millionaire athlete lifestyle". My gay friends don't actually have much in common with him.

Thank you.

"World traveller" is a lifestyle. Sexuality is a biological trait.

Saying you don't agree with one being gay is the same as saying you don't agree with someone being black.

...unless you all can talk about the day you woke up and "decided" you were heterosexual.

[slapshot]

According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. If these Christian denominations aren't against homosexuality, they aren't doing a good enough job of letting everyone know.

Respect to Collins. I don't think I could imagine how hard it must have been for him.

According to a 2,000-year old book written by people who thought the world was flat, the sun revolved around the Earth, and that a remedy for mental illness was drilling holes in the head of the sufferer so that the demons could escape, homosexuality is a sin. As was a lot of other stuff today's people read, scoff at the idiocy of, and then proceed to ignore.

"[it is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" Isaiah 40:22

Circle. Like a disc. Like a hockey puck.

If you follow the horizon around 360 degrees you probably won't find any corners.

I don't remember reading anywhere that said the earth was a cube. Just flat.

[illwauk]

• Yeah, he has a right to feel that way and he has a right to say it. But I really, really hope, as this becomes more normal (and I am sorry to tell you, that's a done deal...it's happening) that more people do more than say "My religion says it's bad, so that's that." Plenty of people go deeper than that all the time. Broussard is not doing that. Stop talking about your religion (you know the one that not everyone has to follow...) and think about how you really feel. You. Not what you've been told to feel. I'll be honest; it's my big problem with religion. It's the reason that if I decided I needed spiritual guidance I would not even consider Christianity. I am supposed to accept someone's religion, but I cannot accept the idea that some people, just because they are gay are "less" than the rest of us. That's the gateway to bigotry. And to whatever extent that makes me intolerant, so be it. My slight back-peddle is that currently, the majority of Americans are fairly supportive of gay rights and something like 3/4 of Americans identify as Christian. So there is obviously some overlap.
  

What I bolded is exactly what I feel the biggest problem is. Not just with gay rights, but a myriad of other issues as well. You can't be all gung-ho about the constitution AND push for religious ideals. You can't claim separation of church and state and then bring God into the conversation with laws and policy and whatever else. How about everyone that ISN'T Christian? Does that not matter? I'm Jewish, so why should I give a damn what it says in the new testament? (And in full disclosure, while I'm Jewish I really honestly don't do anything related to religion at any point in my daily life. It has zero bearing on what I do or who I am.)

Also, making something illegal because it's against the teaching of the Church: I don't understand why it has to be illegal in this (or any) country. You don't want gay people to get married? Then don't marry them in your church. Guess what: Your heterosexual marriage was licensed BY A STATE in this country. NOT your Church. Your STATE. You don't want people to have the right to be pro-choice? Then don't practice it. Just because someone else wants an abortion doesn't mean you yourself would have to if you don't.

Just be more open minded about others that don't share your set of values. That's all we can ask for.

End rant.

Agreed on all points. The thing that's irritating me the most is this idea that looking down on gay people as morally inferior beings is somehow not a form of hatred.

...in other words, sh~t like this.

[BlueSky]

That's a different thing.

I'm taking about a situation where an employer can say outright "I'm firing you only because you're gay" and that's perfectly okay under the law.

Until the same holds true for conservative Christians anywhere in the United States, the comparison is absurd.

That should not be okay under the law. But what's equally reprehensible is when incompetent employees are fired and play the "it's only because I'm (fill in the blank)" card. No, most times it's really just because you're a subpar employee.

[illwauk]

That's a different thing.

I'm taking about a situation where an employer can say outright "I'm firing you only because you're gay" and that's perfectly okay under the law.

Until the same holds true for conservative Christians anywhere in the United States, the comparison is absurd.

That should not be okay under the law. But what's equally reprehensible is when incompetent employees are fired and play the "it's only because I'm (fill in the blank)" card. No, most times it's really just because you're a subpar employee.

Reprehensible? Perhaps. But far from "equally" so, and definitely not relevant to this discussion.

Just because certain people in Group X are jerks doesn't somehow make whatever discrimination Group X faces any less bad.

[OnWis97]

That's a different thing.

I'm taking about a situation where an employer can say outright "I'm firing you only because you're gay" and that's perfectly okay under the law.

Until the same holds true for conservative Christians anywhere in the United States, the comparison is absurd.

That should not be okay under the law. But what's equally reprehensible is when incompetent employees are fired and play the "it's only because I'm (fill in the blank)" card. No, most times it's really just because you're a subpar employee.

Reprehensible? Perhaps. But far from "equally" so, and definitely not relevant to this discussion.

Just because certain people in Group X are jerks doesn't somehow make whatever discrimination Group X faces any less bad.

Of course it is. You know how "those people" are.

[IceCap]

http://www.buzzfeed....2180258_1120719

I'll probably get bashed for this but I don't think anything Chris said is wrong. As a fellow Christian, I'm glad he is pointing out his beliefs on television. I also believe he did it in a very good way, he didn't bash Collins or anything like that, he just says that he disagrees with the lifestyle. I may not agree with homosexuality but I am not gonna judge any person on that because it really isn't my place to, that is God's judgement so that is how I view it. I think its good for Chris to stand up for his beliefs though just like most people support Jason Collins for his. I'm not trying to say Collins is wrong or bash him for being gay but I, like Chris, would say that I disagree with it just based on my beliefs.

I'm jumping in here with bigmike. Chris expressed HIS views on television. This is no different than Collins expressing his to SI. Tolerance should be universal. If Collins is applauded for voicing his views to SI, then Chris should be applauded for not giving in to Big Brother and expressing his. Chris never said that being gay was wrong, he said he BELIEVED it to be wrong. Kudos to Chris for laying his job on the line for his beliefs. I just hope it works out better than the last time a sports reporter did the same thing. http://life.national...om-free-speech/

Nope, sorry. It doesn't work that way. Someone in the 1960s wouldn't be considered courageous if they came out against the Civil Rights movement. Same thing here.

Personal belief is a complex thing, when you get right down to it, but at the end of the day there are certain issues where you are clearly on the right side of history or on the wrong side of history. Some issues where morality is THAT clear cut. This is one of those issues. You don't get bonus points for clinging to outdated, hateful thinking as the rest of the world moves forward.

As for the Christian thing? One of the most prominent and influential Christian churches in the world accepts openly gay men in the clergy and performs same sex marriage ceremonies where they're legal. Christianity itself hasn't been a unified belief system since 1054. To say "I'm Christian therefore I condemn homosexuality" is to be incredibly ignorant of your own religion's history and diverse/fractured nature. If someone can claim with a straight face that their beliefs on an issue are reflective of Christianity's as a whole then I honestly don't put much stock into what they have to say because they're kind of an idiot.

Finally on the Bible, I've said it before. I find it sad how many people read it without understanding it. As a believer in G-d/Adonai/the Almighty myself I find it very disturbing how many people use His name as justification for bigotry. It's been going on for a while, so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm not. Just not happy about it.

[BlueSky]

@ illwauk, in my opinion it IS equally reprehensible. Feel free to disagree with the understanding that it doesn't make you right.

As for relevant to the discussion, we passed that exit ten miles back.

[illwauk]

@ illwauk, in my opinion it IS equally reprehensible. Feel free to disagree with the understanding that it doesn't make you right.

As for relevant to the discussion, we passed that exit ten miles back.

Sorry, but I really don't see how someone losing their livelihood because of their sexuality is comparable to unwarranted claims of discrimination... especially when there's so many politicians and an entire AM talk radio-listening segment of the population willing to undermine even the most obviously legitimate claims.

[OnWis97]

@ illwauk, in my opinion it IS equally reprehensible. Feel free to disagree with the understanding that it doesn't make you right.

As for relevant to the discussion, we passed that exit ten miles back.

Sorry, but I really don't see how someone losing their livelihood because of their sexuality is comparable to unwarranted claims of discrimination... especially when there's so many politicians and an entire AM talk radio-listening segment of the population willing to undermine even the most obviously legitimate claims.

Taking it another direction, I agree that it's reprehensible. I'll even agree that it is equally so.

But why can't it ever just be "Firing someone for being gay is wrong" and leave it at that? Why does it have to be "Sure, firing someone for being gay is wrong, but they do it too!" I don't get that.