ksupilot

NYC FC Branding

Recommended Posts

"None yet"? Come now.

Chivas has a policy of ethnic purity at all levels. Man City, demonstrably, does not.

There's simply no analogy to be drawn between the relative morality of Chivas USA and NYCFC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why I added the caveat that I doubt they'd be inclined to act as stupidly as Chivas USA's ownership has. I am certain they will have some level of arrogance until the team adjusts to the American style of football. But that will not influence how they attempt to build the club and its image in New York.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes - we talked about that on earlier pages. And it's not good.

But an evil owner is still not the same as an evil stated team policy. Our ire should be sent firmly in Mansour's direction, but not necessarily the team. Not unless the team policies reflect Mansour's particular brand of scummy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Sports Illustrated:

What’s more, Soriano revealed a team badge is coming in the next few weeks, as is the announcement of the team’s temporary stadium host. (The odds-on favorite is Yankee Stadium.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So many people are unfamilair both with the Geography and Social boundries of New York City and Northern New Jersey.

The Meadowlands is in East Rutherford. Geographically it is in NJ but in the same way Auburn Hills or Landover MD are not in Detroit or Washington, it is simply there because there was not available, affordable, accessable land in NYC to build arenas and stadiums. So it is land just on the other side of the Lincoln Tunnel where NY teams can play. At the time, the Devils and Nets played there and chose to identify themselves as NJ because there were already NY teams (the Nets played in New Brunswick when they originally moved to New Jersey so it made little sense to change the name back to NY when they were technically still playing in NJ.) Again, the Devils and Nets choice At That Time was branding and was a choice of identification and representation.

The Giants and Jets who originally played in NYC continue to represent NY and the NY metropolitan area even though their stadium is geographically in New Jersey. Again, you have to just consider The Meadowlands as being built on cheap land, not a relocation.

HOWEVER having said all that - the Devils and Red Bulls now play in Newark, which I would consider a wholey NJ city. (please no one say Harrison) So when the Red Bulls played in the Meadowlands it was fine for them to be NY, and NY-NJ was fine too if they wanted to throw the city of East Rutherford a bone in the same way the Super Bowl is... but now that they play in Newark and Especially with a REAL NYC team on they way I do kind of agree it doesn't make much sense for them to be named NY.

I'd say its exactly the same as Los Angeles Angels playing so far away from Los Angeles. They are doing it stricly for marketing reasons even though its incorrect. The Jets and Giants are not doing it for marketing reasons, they DID NOT move out of NYC... they just built a stadium on available land that happens to be technically not within the city limits.

Gothamite and I have disagreed about this in the past but I respect his arguments (if I am correct the gist is that the "New York" that the NFL teams continue to use the moniker as representatives of a region, similar to "Tampa Bay", not to represent the city). Your argument, however, is deeply flawed, East Rutherford is simply empty land that is part of NYC but the distant outpost of Newark is NJ's cross to bear? That makes no sense.

There is a simple way to rectify this. Firstly, the Jets and Giants do not pay NYC nor NY State taxes. Their offices are in New Jersey. They play in New Jersey. The are New Jersey's teams, not New York's. Secondly, I hope NYC FC just goes away. This is Cosmos Country. Always was, always will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...except when they don't bother to play for nearly thirty years. Or half a season if they don't feel like it. :D

The Jets and Giants are New York teams... unless you're saying that no one in the city pays attention to them or attends their games within the city limit; I'd find that pretty laughable. It's a metro area, even if it seems that the world only revolves around the city itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So many people are unfamilair both with the Geography and Social boundries of New York City and Northern New Jersey.

The Meadowlands is in East Rutherford. Geographically it is in NJ but in the same way Auburn Hills or Landover MD are not in Detroit or Washington, it is simply there because there was not available, affordable, accessable land in NYC to build arenas and stadiums. So it is land just on the other side of the Lincoln Tunnel where NY teams can play. At the time, the Devils and Nets played there and chose to identify themselves as NJ because there were already NY teams (the Nets played in New Brunswick when they originally moved to New Jersey so it made little sense to change the name back to NY when they were technically still playing in NJ.) Again, the Devils and Nets choice At That Time was branding and was a choice of identification and representation.

The Giants and Jets who originally played in NYC continue to represent NY and the NY metropolitan area even though their stadium is geographically in New Jersey. Again, you have to just consider The Meadowlands as being built on cheap land, not a relocation.

HOWEVER having said all that - the Devils and Red Bulls now play in Newark, which I would consider a wholey NJ city. (please no one say Harrison) So when the Red Bulls played in the Meadowlands it was fine for them to be NY, and NY-NJ was fine too if they wanted to throw the city of East Rutherford a bone in the same way the Super Bowl is... but now that they play in Newark and Especially with a REAL NYC team on they way I do kind of agree it doesn't make much sense for them to be named NY.

I'd say its exactly the same as Los Angeles Angels playing so far away from Los Angeles. They are doing it stricly for marketing reasons even though its incorrect. The Jets and Giants are not doing it for marketing reasons, they DID NOT move out of NYC... they just built a stadium on available land that happens to be technically not within the city limits.

Gothamite and I have disagreed about this in the past but I respect his arguments (if I am correct the gist is that the "New York" that the NFL teams continue to use the moniker as representatives of a region, similar to "Tampa Bay", not to represent the city). Your argument, however, is deeply flawed, East Rutherford is simply empty land that is part of NYC but the distant outpost of Newark is NJ's cross to bear? That makes no sense.

There is a simple way to rectify this. Firstly, the Jets and Giants do not pay NYC nor NY State taxes. Their offices are in New Jersey. They play in New Jersey. The are New Jersey's teams, not New York's. Secondly, I hope NYC FC just goes away. This is Cosmos Country. Always was, always will be.

Whether or not Newark is a suburb of New York City or its own city I guess is subject for a good debate. My feeling is playing in Newark is New Jersey. Playing in East Rutherford in New York City. I don't know if you've lived in New Jersey your entire life as I have but that's just the feeling I get from knowing the area as well as I do.

I really don't care where those team's pay there taxes, they are New York teams. They represent the city of New York. There's a league of 32 teams. with teams representing cities from all over the country - those two teams represent the city of New York.

My feeling is that when the new NY soccer team starts playing within the city limits, that most New York soccer fans (especially those in queens which might as well be on the other side of the planet from Newark) will be fans of the new team. And Soccer fans in New Jersey wil be fans of the Red Bulls... and to that respect, playing in Newark and having a NJ fan base, they woudn't represent New York City.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Newark is more a satellite city than a suburb. This list hits on a few I had in mind, like Kenosha and Gary to Chicago, and Flint to Detroit, but leaves Newark off. It does, however, include Trenton to New York/Philly. I'd consider Jersey City a satellite, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone think Red Bulls would drop the New York in order to appeal to a wider, non New York specific demo? I would think Red Bulls FC would be preferable to New Jersey Red Bulls FC. Kind of like Chivas isn't Los Angeles Chivas (although their lack of fan base is pretty bad).

Just throwing it out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Possible - that's exactly what the MetroStars did (and the Cosmos before them). Think that's more likely then adopting "New Jersey".

I do think that they'll become more associated with Jersey once there's an actual NY club, but doubt they'll make it that official.

Unless... by some bizarre magic the Cosmos actually manage to join MLS. Then I can see the Red Bulls clinging on to Jersey out of sheer desperation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a simple way to rectify this. Firstly, the Jets and Giants do not pay NYC nor NY State taxes. Their offices are in New Jersey. They play in New Jersey. The are New Jersey's teams, not New York's

Nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So many people are unfamilair both with the Geography and Social boundries of New York City and Northern New Jersey.

The Meadowlands is in East Rutherford. Geographically it is in NJ but in the same way Auburn Hills or Landover MD are not in Detroit or Washington, it is simply there because there was not available, affordable, accessable land in NYC to build arenas and stadiums. So it is land just on the other side of the Lincoln Tunnel where NY teams can play. At the time, the Devils and Nets played there and chose to identify themselves as NJ because there were already NY teams (the Nets played in New Brunswick when they originally moved to New Jersey so it made little sense to change the name back to NY when they were technically still playing in NJ.) Again, the Devils and Nets choice At That Time was branding and was a choice of identification and representation.

The Giants and Jets who originally played in NYC continue to represent NY and the NY metropolitan area even though their stadium is geographically in New Jersey. Again, you have to just consider The Meadowlands as being built on cheap land, not a relocation.

HOWEVER having said all that - the Devils and Red Bulls now play in Newark, which I would consider a wholey NJ city. (please no one say Harrison) So when the Red Bulls played in the Meadowlands it was fine for them to be NY, and NY-NJ was fine too if they wanted to throw the city of East Rutherford a bone in the same way the Super Bowl is... but now that they play in Newark and Especially with a REAL NYC team on they way I do kind of agree it doesn't make much sense for them to be named NY.

I'd say its exactly the same as Los Angeles Angels playing so far away from Los Angeles. They are doing it stricly for marketing reasons even though its incorrect. The Jets and Giants are not doing it for marketing reasons, they DID NOT move out of NYC... they just built a stadium on available land that happens to be technically not within the city limits.

Gothamite and I have disagreed about this in the past but I respect his arguments (if I am correct the gist is that the "New York" that the NFL teams continue to use the moniker as representatives of a region, similar to "Tampa Bay", not to represent the city). Your argument, however, is deeply flawed, East Rutherford is simply empty land that is part of NYC but the distant outpost of Newark is NJ's cross to bear? That makes no sense.

There is a simple way to rectify this. Firstly, the Jets and Giants do not pay NYC nor NY State taxes. Their offices are in New Jersey. They play in New Jersey. The are New Jersey's teams, not New York's. Secondly, I hope NYC FC just goes away. This is Cosmos Country. Always was, always will be.

Whether or not Newark is a suburb of New York City or its own city I guess is subject for a good debate. My feeling is playing in Newark is New Jersey. Playing in East Rutherford in New York City. I don't know if you've lived in New Jersey your entire life as I have but that's just the feeling I get from knowing the area as well as I do.

I really don't care where those team's pay there taxes, they are New York teams. They represent the city of New York. There's a league of 32 teams. with teams representing cities from all over the country - those two teams represent the city of New York.

My feeling is that when the new NY soccer team starts playing within the city limits, that most New York soccer fans (especially those in queens which might as well be on the other side of the planet from Newark) will be fans of the new team. And Soccer fans in New Jersey wil be fans of the Red Bulls... and to that respect, playing in Newark and having a NJ fan base, they woudn't represent New York City.

I've lived in Hudson County, NJ my entire life so I think I have a pretty good grasp on the situation. The idea that East Rutherford is New York is just dopey. The real answer is that "New York" in the teams' names represents a region. If you look in the article below, you'll see that the Giants themselves have held that position for at least 13 years. In fact, as of 2001, 52% of Giants STHs were from NJ. I bet the percentage that actually comes from the five boroughs is no more than 10. I would think that the Jets numbers are smilarly skewed against the city itself. As a proud New Jerseyan who loves NYC, I've come to grips with and learned to embrace the fact that the teams represent the entire metropolitan area (which has its nexus in Manhattan, where neither team has played in over 50 years).

[link]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/2001/playoffs/news/2001/01/19/giants_newyorknewjersey_ap/[/link]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The name represents the city. Not uncommon for a team named after a city to play in that city's suburbs.

East Rutherford is a New York suburb. Just as much as White Plains to the north or Belmont to the east. State lines are meaningless here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New_York_Metropolitan_Area_Counties_2013

Here's a map of the New York Metropolitan Area, which includes portions of NY, NJ, CT and PA. Clearly for many of these teams, they are drawing from this entire region, and the NY name refers to the metro area.

This is why club got it right the second time around when they simply went by MetroStars. No one feels left out, and everyone in the metro area is in fact included. A rename to Red Bull MetroStars would not be the worst thing if the club wants to try and extend it's reach beyond NYC.

I find it interesting though that the NHL's Devils have never had this same crisis of confidence being from New Jersey. Shows how much history can play a part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That map shows one interpretation of the New York City metropolitan area; I think most people don't tend to think of it as being as extensive as all that. But a good chunk of northern New Jersey would be included in anyone's interpretation. Also, the applicable interpretation depends on the league in question: while the New York teams in Major League Baseball and in the NFL could consider a map like the one above as meaningful, it is extremely doubful that a New York MLS team would ever conceive of appealing to a region that size.


As a bicyclist, I am often in Hudson County and in the adjacent city of Newark during the summer. And, on the ground, those places feel very much like New York City. When spending time in these places, one cannot help but be impressed by the similarity to Brooklyn and Queens (where I live). A New Yorker feels at home in these places.


By contrast, Nassau County and Westchester County north of Yonkers feel nothing like New York City; a New Yorker in these places would never imagine that he/she is home, unlike when in Hudson County / Newark. Indeed, I'd say that Hudson County / Newark feel more New-York-City-like than Staten Island does!


Newark and the cities of Hudson County have long been considered part of New York City's sphere. We should remember that "New York's" first commercial radio station was WJZ (today's WABC) in Newark in the early 1920s. Even though its very call letters referred to New Jersey, it was always considered a New York station, well before its move to Manhattan in the 1940s


The Meadowlands area is located in highway-choked car hell which has a feel that is very different to that of New York City. Of course, I am not arguing that the Meadowlands area is not part of the New York region; by virtue of proximity it certainly is. But I saw assertions earlier that the Red Bulls in Harrison (just to the north of Newark, in Hudson County) are not a legitimate New York team, while teams in the Meadowlands are. In fact they all are.


If Meadowlands teams (including those which have been unwise enough to deny this fact and use the name "New Jersey" to their own detriment) are New York teams, then any team located in Hudson County or in Newark would have an even greater claim to that status.


The New Jersey Devils may not have been involved in any debates about their locality name, as they didn't move to New Jersey from elsewhere in the New York area, but relocated there from another city entirely. But they have never been as well supported (neither in the Meadowlands nor in Newark) as should be expected given the population density of their home region and their on-ice success.


Despite their statewide name, the Devils are not seen as a team with a statewide presence; most of New Jersey (justifiably) sees them as a New York team. So the Devils get the worst of all worlds: they draw almost exclusively from the New Jersey portion of the New York area, not from New Jersey as a whole, and not from the New York City area as a whole.


Still, MLS aims a bit lower than even the NHL; so the Red Bulls could conceivably elect to employ a more New-Jersey-related focus once NYCFC comes in. But I suspect that they will retain the "New York" identity even then. The PATH train links the team to New York; and their stadium's location right at a stop makes it just as accessible to New Yorkers as would be a stadium located at a subway stop in Manhattan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New_York_Metropolitan_Area_Counties_2013

Here's a map of the New York Metropolitan Area, which includes portions of NY, NJ, CT and PA. Clearly for many of these teams, they are drawing from this entire region, and the NY name refers to the metro area.

This is why club got it right the second time around when they simply went by MetroStars. No one feels left out, and everyone in the metro area is in fact included. A rename to Red Bull MetroStars would not be the worst thing if the club wants to try and extend it's reach beyond NYC.

I find it interesting though that the NHL's Devils have never had this same crisis of confidence being from New Jersey. Shows how much history can play a part.

The devils are in the exact opposite position as they have to carve out their own niche as they have to compete against 2 other ny metro franchises so marketing themselves as NJ's nhl squad helps differentiate them from the other two franchises. I also think that hockey tends to keep much more loyal fan bases than the other big 3 leagues.

This map illustrates a great point. Modern pro sports are no longer limited to municipal boundaries. They are all mostly TV driven leagues so in reality when a team represents a host city they are in fact representing the entire metro area or DMA/Tv market. In all reality the vast majority of revenue for the big 3 leagues is derived from either national or local TV contracts which dwarves revenue from physical attendance. Attendance has become not much more than window dressing for the TV broadcast and provides incremental revenue for the franchises but is no longer driving the bottom line. For this very reason it makes much more sense to grow your brand across as wide a geography as possible and marketing to die hard fans who actually attend games becomes secondary.

MLS and NHL are slightly different because they are not yet able to command the same TV revenue that the other leagues can so it makes more sense that they continue to market to their loyal fans and do as much as they can to drive attendance. If that means marketing themselves as a more localized product to create a core fan base then that probably makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The name represents the city. Not uncommon for a team named after a city to play in that city's suburbs.

East Rutherford is a New York suburb. Just as much as White Plains to the north or Belmont to the east. State lines are meaningless here.

The Jets and Giants were named after the city. I am not arguing that. I am making the argument that, as the teams and their fans have moved further away from their original NYC locations, the monikers have come to represent the region moreso than just the city.

As for East Rutherford, it is most definitely a suburb of NYC. My point, which is certainly nuanced, is that he should be careful not to argue that it IS NYC. Places like Northern NJ, Long Island, Westchester, etc. are as different from NYC as they are the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I don't see the Red Bulls voluntarily giving up the NY in their name. It holds a lot of marketing power, particularly internationally.

But man I really want to see some concrete stuff from this club soon. Are you playing at Yankee Stadium? Where's the crest? Or even just some officially announced colours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crest and colors are reportedly coming within weeks, although most of the supporters suspect that they'll continue using navy and sky and only the ratio is in question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.