NFL '13 SEASON THREAD

[BlueSky]

^ True...

What makes Sherman's outburst silly is that, while he made a good play, it wasn't some amazing man-among-boys deal like the Beast Mode run against the Saints. DBs make that play all the time. And if Kap's pass is 6 inches higher we're having a whole different discussion. Like how Crabtree torched the "best cornerback in the league" for the winning TD in the NFC Championship game.

I see the points people have made about the athletes being authentic, and that's fine. There's just no reason to belittle and taunt opponents.

[Kramerica Industries]

This is a good take on Richard Sherman that validates my opinion, so I'm sharing it:

This. For what it's worth, I'd so much rather watch an excited player than more Peyton Manning stoicism; as if faux-sportsmanship is what the world needs more of. How much better would have been if Peyton had been giddy after the game and been like: "Screw Brady... I'm the best quarterback in the game and all time. Did you watch the clinic I just put on?"

But hey, these are the same people who don't like it when NHL goal celebrations consist of anything more than raising your arms or baseball players don't start running the bases a second after they blast a 450 ft bomb to center. Killjoys.

Well, in that example, it would be one thing if Manning's current off-field demeanor is unauthentic (plus, the two are friends so it's highly unlikely that would happen). I've never seen anything to suggest that Manning isn't genuine, so he's probably a bad example. I really don't care how the players act and whether they want to talk trash and act like Sherman or show a little more respect for opponents, like Peyton Manning, but I do tend to think the approach of someone like Peyton Manning has less chance of coming back and biting them in the ass.

Just curious from those into the advanced stats, where does Sherman actually rank amongst the leagues corner backs? He's clearly one of the league's best, but there's certainly value in playing with the talent that Seattle has surrounded him with.

Well, I don't have PFF premium information because I'm cheap and dirt poor, but from one column I read, it doesn't indicate that his PFF grade is all that great. But there's a flip side to that, I would have to think, in that you can't really be graded for passes that don't come your way, correct? Also, kind of like UZR/Total Zone/whatever that tries to measure a player's defensive abilities in baseball (and along the lines of what you're insinuating), I would think your grade can be hampered by the superb abilities of someone around you. Having an All-Pro safety like Earl Thomas can probably take some of the grade off Richard Sherman. Again, I would think this is the case. PFF's grading system is well regarded so I'm not in any way trying to discredit them.

(for easy referencing, since he's in that cluster there - just look beneath Russell Wilson and Tony McDaniel to find Sherman's name. X axis is salary, Y axis is the grade scale. The author had his reasons for not including the figures on the graph.)

(Footballperspective.com)

(Final edit: Also remember that grades are not analogous across positions; PFF stresses this. A +30.0 or something grade for a linebacker is not the same as a +30.0 grade for a safety. So on and so forth. The author's original intent there was only to provide a rough reference of salary vs. production, with the obvious caveat that you will take the relative "inefficiency" of the Broncos and Patriots if it means Tom Brady or Peyton Manning is your QB.)

[C's]

Why do people get off on complaining about how pro sports players don't have enough "class?" Get the sand out of your vaginas.

[See Red]

This is a good take on Richard Sherman that validates my opinion, so I'm sharing it:

This. For what it's worth, I'd so much rather watch an excited player than more Peyton Manning stoicism; as if faux-sportsmanship is what the world needs more of. How much better would have been if Peyton had been giddy after the game and been like: "Screw Brady... I'm the best quarterback in the game and all time. Did you watch the clinic I just put on?"

But hey, these are the same people who don't like it when NHL goal celebrations consist of anything more than raising your arms or baseball players don't start running the bases a second after they blast a 450 ft bomb to center. Killjoys.

Well, in that example, it would be one thing if Manning's current off-field demeanor is unauthentic (plus, the two are friends so it's highly unlikely that would happen). I've never seen anything to suggest that Manning isn't genuine, so he's probably a bad example. I really don't care how the players act and whether they want to talk trash and act like Sherman or show a little more respect for opponents, like Peyton Manning, but I do tend to think the approach of someone like Peyton Manning has less chance of coming back and biting them in the ass.

Just curious from those into the advanced stats, where does Sherman actually rank amongst the leagues corner backs? He's clearly one of the league's best, but there's certainly value in playing with the talent that Seattle has surrounded him with.

Well, I don't have PFF premium information because I'm cheap and dirt poor, but from one column I read, it doesn't indicate that his PFF grade is all that great. But there's a flip side to that, I would have to think, in that you can't really be graded for passes that don't come your way, correct? Also, kind of like UZR/Total Zone/whatever that tries to measure a player's defensive abilities in baseball (and along the lines of what you're insinuating), I would think your grade can be hampered by the superb abilities of someone around you. Having an All-Pro safety like Earl Thomas can probably take some of the grade off Richard Sherman. Again, I would think this is the case. PFF's grading system is well regarded so I'm not in any way trying to discredit them.

I think there's some stats that account for that. I used to be into advanced stats in baseball, but I thought they were a lot easier to get into, understand, and find than the ones in football, so I never really bothered getting into them in football, so I'm really not certain.

Certainly having an elite safety over the top affects how you can cover a WR.

One factor for Sherman is that he plays almost entirely on the left side, where-as somebody like Revis will stay matched up against a teams elite WR regardless of whether he lines up on the left or right side.

[Kramerica Industries]

I think if you can marry advanced statistics to an intuitive understanding of how the sport works, who is supposed to be doing what, etc., then they can make a whole of sense. I definitely agree that baseball advanced stats are much more "obvious", if you will, than football ones are. I'm pretty new to this approach to football, and it's a bitch and a half to understand what many of these stats mean, and what their application is. This is where dfwabel is actually very valuable around here.

[The_Admiral]

I'm mostly fine with the whole Richard Sherman thing, but I find the "wah wah wah but when WHITE people do it" brigade even more annoying than both the people pissed with Sherman and Richard Sherman himself.

[GFB]

This is a good take on Richard Sherman that validates my opinion, so I'm sharing it:

This. For what it's worth, I'd so much rather watch an excited player than more Peyton Manning stoicism; as if faux-sportsmanship is what the world needs more of. How much better would have been if Peyton had been giddy after the game and been like: "Screw Brady... I'm the best quarterback in the game and all time. Did you watch the clinic I just put on?"

But hey, these are the same people who don't like it when NHL goal celebrations consist of anything more than raising your arms or baseball players don't start running the bases a second after they blast a 450 ft bomb to center. Killjoys.

Well, in that example, it would be one thing if Manning's current off-field demeanor is unauthentic (plus, the two are friends so it's highly unlikely that would happen). I've never seen anything to suggest that Manning isn't genuine, so he's probably a bad example. I really don't care how the players act and whether they want to talk trash and act like Sherman or show a little more respect for opponents, like Peyton Manning, but I do tend to think the approach of someone like Peyton Manning has less chance of coming back and biting them in the ass.

Just curious from those into the advanced stats, where does Sherman actually rank amongst the leagues corner backs? He's clearly one of the league's best, but there's certainly value in playing with the talent that Seattle has surrounded him with.

Maybe Manning is a bad example, but it's less of a specific complaint as it is a complaint with the global expectation of "acting like you've been there before," when you haven't.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I'm mostly fine with the whole Richard Sherman thing, but I find the "wah wah wah but when WHITE people do it" brigade even more annoying than both the people pissed with Sherman and Richard Sherman himself.

In this case, I'm not sure where what then the allowable opinion to have is, other than detached coolness.

[The_Admiral]

"Haha, that was pretty cool. Reminds me of Bart Scott and CAN'T WAIT. Moving on..."

[See Red]

On a completely unrelated note, I'm watching Pro Football Talk on NBC Sports and holy crap! Former Bucs QB Shaun King got fat. I thought he was a former lineman at first.

edit: Changed it to a smaller photo.

[quietdealings]

Sports talk radio avoided it for as long as possible (about 23 hours) but the question is being thrown around now. Will this be the final game we ever watch Peyton Manning play? Also touching on possibility of John Fox's final game.

What do you guys think?

[IceCap]

Richard Sherman actually showed some emotion. We need more of that in sports. The bland "act like you've been there"/stoic "just playing the game the right way" nonsense has sucked some of the life from the proceedings. Do we need everyone screaming about how they're the best? No, but it's a welcomed break from the norm.

Sports talk radio avoided it for as long as possible (about 23 hours) but the question is being thrown around now. Will this be the final game we ever watch Peyton Manning play? Also touching on possibility of John Fox's final game.

What do you guys think?

Apparently the Bronocs will asses Manning's health in the offseason. If he's healthy enough to play then he'll be back. If the Broncos don't like what they see then they'll cut him loose. Should the latter be the case then whether or not he comes back seems to hinge on the Super Bowl. If he wins he'll probably retire in the event that the Broncos cut him. If he doesn't win I could see him pulling a mini Favre.

[The_Admiral]

I'm mostly fine with the whole Richard Sherman thing, but I find the "wah wah wah but when WHITE people do it" brigade even more annoying than both the people pissed with Sherman and Richard Sherman himself.

In this case, I'm not sure where what then the allowable opinion to have is, other than detached coolness.

Just to finish my point here beyond a one-liner, I just wish we didn't have to do the whole "America is afraid of a strong black man" thing. I wish the racist idiots weren't out there to react so stupidly, I wish they didn't require public shaming on a level that overshadows the game itself, it's just all so exhausting and unnecessary and sad. I certainly don't remember anything this virulent when Bart Scott cut his wrestling promo three years ago. Maybe that's because people have come to expect a certain baseline of general weirdness from the Jets whereas the Seahawks have been wearing everyone's asses out since the day Pete Carroll came to town. And a lot of this is coming from Deadspin, whose gropes at social justice are more about profit than altruism, which we've talked about here many times.

Maybe I'm just a little touchy on the whole thing because just the other day, Jeb Lund -- who is usually terrific and just might be the best sportswriter, such as he is, going today -- did a piece on Kaepernick and Wilson for Sports On Earth where he totally just took a big sputtering crap, and it disappointed me. His thesis is basically "people call Kaepernick a thug because he's tattooed and confident and also black, and that's wrong. Also, people speak favorably about Russell Wilson because he is polite and humble and also black, and that's wrong too." It amplifies what must be the lunatic fringe of Kap-haters (must still be pissed about that Dolphins hat), because I always thought people were generally cool with how he came out of nowhere to get the Niners out of the perpetual Alex Smith wheel-spinning. Also, the Wilson side of it treads dangerously close to accusing him of race treason for growing up in a well-off Christian family:

With any other player, the fact that his father trained him to be a thought-robot would stand out as either crassly commercialized -- preschool for corporate stoogifying your own offspring -- or just annoying. We would aggressively make fun of it, maybe even come to define him by it, or at least always consider him insincere. But with Wilson, it gets subsumed by the narrative of his being a thoughtful young man -- as if you'd expect anything less from the son of a Dartmouth-educated lawyer and a legal nurse consultant, who went to a private preparatory school and then graduated college in three years with a B.A. in communications.

I mean, Russell Wilson does seem to be a pretty stand-up guy, especially amidst all the hopped-up spastics on his team. Not seeming like a jerk is remarkable for an NFL player, not for a black guy.

I don't know. I just think there's been too much of The Conversation About Sports And Race in the last two days and not enough of it has been substantive or intelligent, and so I just want everything to go away. Unfortunately, the next two weeks are just going to be even worse!

[quietdealings]

Richard Sherman actually showed some emotion. We need more of that in sports. The bland "act like you've been there"/stoic "just playing the game the right way" nonsense has sucked some of the life from the proceedings. Do we need everyone screaming about how they're the best? No, but it's a welcomed break from the norm.

Sports talk radio avoided it for as long as possible (about 23 hours) but the question is being thrown around now. Will this be the final game we ever watch Peyton Manning play? Also touching on possibility of John Fox's final game.

What do you guys think?

Apparently the Bronocs will asses Manning's health in the offseason. If he's healthy enough to play then he'll be back. If the Broncos don't like what they see then they'll cut him loose. Should the latter be the case then whether or not he comes back seems to hinge on the Super Bowl. If he wins he'll probably retire in the event that the Broncos cut him. If he doesn't win I could see him pulling a mini Favre.

So you're in the camp that believes Manning will play if he wants?

Personally I think he will walk off into the sunset this offseason after beating Seattle. Him, Champ, Wes, and John Fox.

[FiddySicks]

At the time I thought Sherman was a complete jackass in the interview but a couple of posters here made good points about him being jacked up after the win. Fair enough. But taunting Crabtree and getting in his face was classless and unnecessary. I kinda wish Sherman had tipped it to a 49er. Now that would have been an interesting post-game interview.

Kinda thought Crabtree should have stopped and at least fought for that ball. It's the season, man!

Felt bad for Bowman. Leg gets crushed but at least he makes an unbelievable play...which doesn't count because the officials miss it and it's not reviewable. Unbelievable.

For the SB, I hope Denver wins. I like Peyton and John Fox. That's a reversal from what I said before but there's just something about the Seahawks that rubs me the wrong way.

Interesting trivia from yesterday's game on CBS: the Broncos and Patriots played the first-ever AFL game on 9/9/60.

They rub me the wrong way too. I like their offense, I really like Marshawn Lynch (the handshake touchdown celebration is hilarious), and Ive always been an admirer or their name, logos, and helmets, but I think it's the way their defense acts after any play when the opposition fails to get a first down. Every team does that to an extent, but the Seahawks take it to another level.

I will be pulling for the Broncos because Im tired of all the unfair labels that get thrown at Peyton Manning and because Itll suck to live in a world where his doofus younger brother has more rings than he does. If he wins this game you cant call him a playoff choke artist anymore. Plus, hell be the first QB to ever win a Super Bowl with two different teams.

Also I have a lot of family and friends in Denver who are big Broncos fans, I love the city, and I was this close to moving to Denver three years ago.

It's funny that both the 49ers and Patriots have been in the conference championship game the last three years and they haven't met in the Super Bowl in any of those years.

That's the thing that really bugs me about the Seahawks. There is so much to love about that team, but they make it SO HARD to like them.

I love Seattle. It's basically a more northern version of San Francisco in a lot of ways. It's beautiful, progressive, it's got cool weather, and damn near everyone I know from the area is truly welcoming and friendly. Seattle Sports fans are die hard and long suffering. It would be really nice to see them, especially the Hawks, get a championship after all this time. There are at least 20-25 teams they're ahead of when it comes to teams I'd like to see win a title.

Russell Wilson is a great quarterback

Marshawn Lynch is AWESOME, and I love the Skittles thing

Pete Carroll coached the most exciting college teams I've ever seen

But despite that, there a few things that really just annoy me. Richard Sherman is a great cornerback, but he really did show a huge lack of class yesterday. The way some fans act, such as the guy with the Super Bowl tattoo, has NO PLACE when you're rooting for a team that's NEVER won anything.

If the Hawks do win the Super Bowl I'll truly be very happy for them. But good lord, at least try to act like you've been there before.

[Kramerica Industries]

The only reason I would have a rooting interest in this Super Bowl is to build my Peyton arguments (which are stupid, but most sports fans are stupid). Otherwise, I could go either way on this, and its going to be so nice to have a Super Bowl where not only do I not have a team to hate, but both teams would be truly deserving champions. Both teams went 13-3. That's a record of a deserving champion.

[DS729]

I'm with Ice_Cap on Richard Sherman, hell the guy is good fun. He's not the overall classy guy, he's up their, cocky, in your face, and all that good stuff. Would I want him on my team? No. But he's good entertainment.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Why do we want professional athletes to be humble? Why should it matter if they talk big or small or whatever? I love the fact that middle America is scared of or angry with Richard Sherman. In the grand scheme of things, what we he did was so innocuous, so silly, and ultimately so inconsequential, yet there are so many people with legit hurt feelings about a 30-second promo.

The core concept of the NFL -- paying to watch someone else play a game -- is ridiculous. That the owners, players, merchandisers, networks, and everyone involved make so much money from it is ridiculous too. Professional football exposes some very ugly truths about our society, namely that rich folks get poor folks to subsidize their risks while sharing none of their success, but bombast shouldn't be one of them.

If we want to see the best play the best, we shouldn't be surprised when they declare themselves so. What should be shocking, however, is just how quickly and how many of the racists crawl out of the woodwork. This is where I see the value of sports and race journalism, and the anti-racist or anti-hurt feelings tut-tutting.

[Kramerica Industries]

I'm with Ice_Cap on Richard Sherman, hell the guy is good fun. He's not the overall classy guy, he's up their, cocky, in your face, and all that good stuff. Would I want him on my team? No. But he's good entertainment.

That's funny, because if given a chance to have one of, if not the best CB in the league, it would be awfully big of me to say "no thanks".

spoilering slightly related but not really related banter

FWIW, I still can believe in Darrelle Revis being the best, but only if the Bucs use him properly. Using an elite man-to-man corner in a pure zone defense is nothing more than a waste of his talent.

[See Red]

I would take Revis over Sherman with, as you said, the caveat that he's used correctly. Sherman will never touch what Revis did in his best season. Also, like I said earlier, he lines up wherever the teams elite season receiver does -- left, right, or slot.

Sherman should take notes from #24 on the other sideline. Sherman may or may not be the best in the game today but he will never be in the same class as Bailey was at his best, and Bailey never acted like such a jackass.

I sure hope Bailey gets a ring... he was one of the best to ever play the game. His 2006 season is the greatest season any CB's ever had. Only thrown at 35 times in 16 games and only allowed 4 receptions and had 10 picks. Even with only being thrown at 2 times per game, and having passes completed on him .25 time per game, he still had almost 100 tackles.