NFL '13 SEASON THREAD

[Xist2inspire]

When it comes to Peyton, I really hope this puts to rest all of the "Greatest QB ever" talk. Now is he one of the greatest QBs ever? Of course, he's far from a scrub. But he's in a class with Marino, Favre, and to a much lesser extent, Romo. He can put up points and chew up yards like nobody's business, he's exciting, his talents are incredible...but when the chips are down, when the lights are on, he usually underperforms. Somehow, some way, he comes out on the losing end. That's not a mark of the "Greatest of All Time." We should make note of and respect Peyton's amazing skills, but to put him in a class with not just great QBs, but great winners, let alone calling him the best? That kind of praise is a bit too high.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Basically, whichever team plays better and scores more points is probably going to win.

Nailed it.

[Seadragon76]

You know, if you take away the picks, Peyton didn't have that bad of a game.

But, the proverbial snowball began rolling the moment his center threw it away and the Seahawks got a safety from it. Even great QB's know that when the snowball starts rolling, there's not much that can stop it.

[rams80]

When it comes to Peyton, I really hope this puts to rest all of the "Greatest QB ever" talk. Now is he one of the greatest QBs ever? Of course, he's far from a scrub. But he's in a class with Marino, Favre, and to a much lesser extent, Romo. He can put up points and chew up yards like nobody's business, he's exciting, his talents are incredible...but when the chips are down, when the lights are on, he usually underperforms. Somehow, some way, he comes out on the losing end. That's not a mark of the "Greatest of All Time." We should make note of and respect Peyton's amazing skills, but to put him in a class with not just great QBs, but great winners? That kind of praise is a bit too high.

"Now that Joe Flacco fellah..."

[dbadefense1990]

Basically, whichever team plays better and scores more points is probably going to win.

Nailed it.

Congrats, McCarver.

[Lights Out]

They still beat the Chargers pretty handily (SD needed an onside kick recovery just to make it competitive)... I'll take getting to the Super Bowl versus my team lucking their way into the playoffs.

That Chargers team you're disparaging held your "greatest offense ever" below 30 points three times. Just saying.

[See Red]

When it comes to Peyton, I really hope this puts to rest all of the "Greatest QB ever" talk. Now is he one of the greatest QBs ever? Of course, he's far from a scrub. But he's in a class with Marino, Favre, and to a much lesser extent, Romo. He can put up points and chew up yards like nobody's business, he's exciting, his talents are incredible...but when the chips are down, when the lights are on, he usually underperforms. Somehow, some way, he comes out on the losing end. That's not a mark of the "Greatest of All Time." We should make note of and respect Peyton's amazing skills, but to put him in a class with not just great QBs, but great winners, let alone calling him the best? That kind of praise is a bit too high.

Peyton's post season stats are comparable to any of the "clutch, play-off winning" QBs, and aren't that far off of his regular season numbers. So this argument is ridiculous.

[infrared41]

Just to be a strawman dick, I'm getting the impression that Tom Brady, by sheer virtue of being Tom Brady, would've posted a MUCH better night against that brutal Seahawks D, right?

Not that Peyton was particularly good tonight, because he wasn't. Neither was anybody else wearing orange tonight. So, even though I know it's asking too much because football fans are the biggest meatheads in North American sports (I'm speaking in general, not CCSLC-specific), let's really not try to once again drag this into some Tom Brady/Peyton Manning dick-waving contest again. Put Tom Brady under center tonight, the Broncos still get creamed.

Exactly. Of course the post game narrative will be all about Manning failing in the "big one" yet again, blah blah blah, ad nauseam. Manning didn't play a great game tonight but it's not because he choked or can't win the big games or whatever. Seattle's defense is why Manning didn't play well tonight. Period. The Seahawks delivered a good ol' down home ass-kicking tonight. They beat Denver at every position and in every aspect of the game. I'm not sure that in their prime Montana, Rice, and Craig would have helped Denver in this game.

That's not to say that Manning doesn't deserve any blame, but anyone placing all the blame on him doesn't know about football. If there's a team in the NFL that could have beaten Seattle tonight, I haven't seen it.

[WSU151]

All I see is a lot of excuses. You'd figure the "greatest QB of all-time" could muster more than 8 points.

Pretty much, yeah.

The guy who, I'm sure is your candidate for best QB ever, didn't fare a whole lot better two weeks ago against a much weaker defense.

He managed to rack up more then eight points, and also has a much more impressive post-season resume then the other guy.

The 16 points were garbage time points against a defense that was generally regarded as falling somewhere between bad and absolutely terrible throughout the better part of the season (and gave up 48 to the Cowboys). And Brady's postseason resume of late really isn't that great, and the early successes were largely due to New England having an elite defense (I'll remind you that Manning has never had anything that resembled one of these).

Again, I'm not trying to be a whiney Broncos fan because sports really don't mean that much to me anymore to be hung up over this game -- but the Broncos problems in that game went faaaaaar beyond Peyton.

Peyton, when he had time, wasn't his normal Peyton. He missed way more throws than he should have, and he had no accuracy on the deep ball. That's his fault. There were plenty of times when I watched the game and I thought "That's a bad throw, Peyton."

If you're going to nail Brady for getting 16 points "in garbage time"...well, Peyton couldn't even get 8 more points in "garbage" time tonight.

Brady hasn't had an elite defense either recently, so I guess that's not his fault when he loses if you don't want to put the blame on Manning for not having an elite defense. By the way, the 2007 Colts defense was elite, and the 2002 and 2005 Indy defenses were pretty damn good. Look it up.

[Xist2inspire]

When it comes to Peyton, I really hope this puts to rest all of the "Greatest QB ever" talk. Now is he one of the greatest QBs ever? Of course, he's far from a scrub. But he's in a class with Marino, Favre, and to a much lesser extent, Romo. He can put up points and chew up yards like nobody's business, he's exciting, his talents are incredible...but when the chips are down, when the lights are on, he usually underperforms. Somehow, some way, he comes out on the losing end. That's not a mark of the "Greatest of All Time." We should make note of and respect Peyton's amazing skills, but to put him in a class with not just great QBs, but great winners? That kind of praise is a bit too high.

"Now that Joe Flacco fellah..."

Lol, I've been a Ravens fan for years, and I was terrified that if the Ravens beat the 49ers, Flacco would win MVP, and they'd overpay the hell out of him. And lo and behold, that's exactly what happened. I like Joe, he's probably the best QB the Ravens have ever had (which isn't saying much), but making him THE face of the franchise? Noooo, he's not that good.

[IceCap]

And Brady's postseason resume of late really isn't that great...

Neither has Peyton's. Peyton's lone Super Bowl victory came two years after Brady's third. Since then both have been to two, and both have lost two. And Brady never looked as outmatched as Manning did tonight. He also never threw away a Super Bowl like Manning did. So both have had less then stellar postseason success recently. The difference was that Brady had success early on with three Super Bowl rings and Manning struggled, finally getting one.

...and the early successes were largely due to New England having an elite defense (I'll remind you that Manning has never had anything that resembled one of these).

Football is, at the end of the day, a team game. Now this is, rightfully, pointed out to remind us that you can't judge quarterback greatness on rings alone. Which is true. Yet I think we tend to overemphasis that point and go to far in the other direction at times. No, rings are not the be-all-end-all of a quarterback's legacy. Yet they cannot be discounted either. As stellar as Dan Marino's career was he will never escape the fact that he never won a Super Bowl. Manning has one, yes, but he should have a few more given his stellar regular season numbers. No, his defences were never that great, but he still managed to get them to the playoffs year in and year out, posting 10+ win seasons in the process. So at a certain point we have to address the fact that something happens with Manning where he, more often then not, falls apart in the postseason.

This was supposed to be the year he changed that. It was a foregone conclusion he would solidify his legacy, yet he helmed an offence that suffered a complete meltdown. That will, rightfully, count against him.

Well thank you. But come on, you can't poke fun at one team without it being mentioned that they're considerably better than your team, regardless of whether you admit it or not. No?

Oh, you can mention it. You're completely right too (though Lights Out is right, they did hold the league's best offence to less then 30 points three times) Doesn't change the outcome of the game we're talking about.

[infrared41]

Basically, whichever team plays better and scores more points is probably going to win.

Nailed it.

You did indeed. And...

Super Bowl Stat of the Day: the team with the most points at the end of the game has won the past 47 Super Bowls.

Make that all 48 Super Bowls.

[infrared41]

All I see is a lot of excuses. You'd figure the "greatest QB of all-time" could muster more than 8 points.

The greatest QB of all-time hung 55 on the Broncos in Super Bowl XXIV.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Basically, whichever team plays better and scores more points is probably going to win.

Nailed it.

You did indeed. And...

Super Bowl Stat of the Day: the team with the most points at the end of the game has won the past 47 Super Bowls.

Make that all 48 Super Bowls.

It just goes to show that if you score touchdowns off of offensive, defensive, and special teams -- and score more of them than the other team -- you put yourself in a good position to win the football game.

[IceCap]

That's not to say that Manning doesn't deserve any blame, but anyone placing all the blame on him doesn't know about football.

Now Greg, we've got a podcast in two days. So I don't want to waste any back and forth here. I just want to address two points. The first one's here. I never said Manning deserved all of the blame for what happened tonight. I said he deserved part of the blame. Which I maintain is a fair statement.

As for the second point...

If there's a team in the NFL that could have beaten Seattle tonight, I haven't seen it.

[See Red]

All I see is a lot of excuses. You'd figure the "greatest QB of all-time" could muster more than 8 points.

Pretty much, yeah.

The guy who, I'm sure is your candidate for best QB ever, didn't fare a whole lot better two weeks ago against a much weaker defense.

He managed to rack up more then eight points, and also has a much more impressive post-season resume then the other guy.

The 16 points were garbage time points against a defense that was generally regarded as falling somewhere between bad and absolutely terrible throughout the better part of the season (and gave up 48 to the Cowboys). And Brady's postseason resume of late really isn't that great, and the early successes were largely due to New England having an elite defense (I'll remind you that Manning has never had anything that resembled one of these).

Again, I'm not trying to be a whiney Broncos fan because sports really don't mean that much to me anymore to be hung up over this game -- but the Broncos problems in that game went faaaaaar beyond Peyton.

Peyton, when he had time, wasn't his normal Peyton. He missed way more throws than he should have, and he had no accuracy on the deep ball. That's his fault. There were plenty of times when I watched the game and I thought "That's a bad throw, Peyton."

If you're going to nail Brady for getting 16 points "in garbage time"...well, Peyton couldn't even get 8 more points in "garbage" time tonight.

Brady hasn't had an elite defense either recently, so I guess that's not his fault when he loses if you don't want to put the blame on Manning for not having an elite defense.

No, that's actually precisely the point I was making. When he's had to take on the role that Manning's had to take on his entire career, he hasn't gotten the results he did in the early portion of his career, when his defenses were consistently among the league's best.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

When is it not too soon to talk about this win in context of other dominant championship wins? It has to rate right near the top, right? No team had scored more points than the Broncos, and they were nearly blanked. That's pretty special.

[infrared41]

When is it not too soon to talk about this win in context of other dominant championship wins? It has to rate right near the top, right? No team had scored more points than the Broncos, and they were nearly blanked. That's pretty special.

It's gotta be right up there with the '85 Bears win over the Patriots. That's what it reminded me of anyway.

[ADW77]

One thing I want to point out. The defining play of the game, Seattle had absolutely nothing to do with.

[See Red]

When is it not too soon to talk about this win in context of other dominant championship wins? It has to rate right near the top, right? No team had scored more points than the Broncos, and they were nearly blanked. That's pretty special.

It is. It was an awesome win. I wish it wasn't against my favorite team so I could appreciate it more but they came to play. If nothing else, that's one thing you can say about this team -- that they came to play in their biggest games.