charger77

The Big Ol' Counterfeit Jersey Thread

Recommended Posts

Media is an experience. You watch the movie, play the video game, read the book, listen to the music. The only reason to have the disc (or purchase the iTunes license) is as a vehicle for acquiring the media. Copies of that media are functionally the same no matter how that copy is acquired. An iTunes mp3 is exactly the same as a ripped mp3 from a CD. There's no loss of authenticity when you copy it (because all versions of a CD/DVD are simply copies anyway).

That is simple not true. There can be massive differences between one mp3 and another. Every time you copy or convert an audio file you loose quality. There are even differences from the audio file that is recorded (the master files) and the one that is put on the cd, simply because of the transfer from one medium to the other. And then when you upload the file to hosting sites and download them, the quality gets diminished even more.

No mp3 is exactly the same as another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You really should try some critical thinking. I knew the rape analogy would stick out to those who react in a knee jerk way so I even pointed out that I was not equating the crimes.

The analogy is "blaming the victim", that is all. It's most prevalent in rape. At no point do I imply the crimes are similar. I am not equating the crimes, but the "blame the victim" mentality. That's all. Really though, it's my fault. I know there are all kinds of people on the internet.

Much of what you say about counterfeiting is true. Counterfeiting is prevalent because of prices. "I can see" that, so it's not "my issue." Yes there are far more serious issues, but since this is a thread about counterfeiting...

But you seem to be suggesting (and correct me if I am wrong because you sure as hell missed the mark on the analogy) that this means that on some level they deserve it and that's just not so. The ease of the stealing and the difficulty of enforcement are also key in why this is so prevalent. In any case, if you do not blame the IP owners, your presentation sure seems to imply it.

As for my analogy, calm down. Rape is the most noteworthy "victim blaming" crime. That's the analogy and one should really be able to not just assume I am equating the two crimes.

Fine, here's a better one...

As for "blaming themselves", so the manufacturers are essentially like the the guy who gets his car radio stolen...his car was parked for too long in a sketchy neighborhood and the doors were unlocked, so we blame the victim. Better? The analogy works. Yeah, the dude could have locked his car and made it more difficult, but let's not forget that the crook is a crook and focus the blame on him.

No I DID NOT suggest they deserve it.

All I did was point out there is a tipping point, you push the price to high you leave yourself open to it happening. The fact it's gotten easier to copy work is just another factor in that tipping point. The fact that graphics software adn knowledge is now more prevelant has it's bonuses as well as it's down sides, this forum being a bonus. If creating graphics hadn't become so much easier in recent years 95% of the people on this forum wouldn't be here and wouldn't have an interest in the subject. Sadly with the ease of creation comes the ease of theft, again not condoning it just pointing out it's the flip side to reason why we're all here and love and enjoy the subject matter this site is dedicated to.

But all of this BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION comes down to the fact that people are unwilling to pay what Nike or other manufacturers want for their top end products. The reason they dont want pay is because people KNOW how much these things cost to produce and the mark ups arre frankly obscene. There's blame to be had on both sides if we look hard enough for it, if Nike kept production in the US where IP laws are more stringently followed producing counterfiet goods would be harder, but in order to maximise profit they took all the manufacturing work out to Asia where it's well known they have ZERO regard for copyright law.

You seem to be acting as if the manufacturers are blamless in all this, they're not. They KNEW the region's disregard for copyright law when they set up their factories there but DID IT ANYWAY. Sleep with dogs you'll get fleas.

At the end of the day a price cut would and will solve the issue faster than trying to go the legal route, price the crap knock-off out the market by making the real deal more affordable and problem solved. It's pretty much fact, and it wouldn't take a HUGE cut either that's the sad thing here.

The truth is as things stand the amount of money being lost to the counterfieters must be within Nike or anyone elses tolerance levels otherwise we'd have far more drastic action from them than we've seen up until this point, including amoung other things price realignments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing you say (with the exceptions of some wording I may tweak) is untrue. But I find your focus to be a little too much on the IP owners and not enough on the actual perpetrators. Inflated prices may "lead" to this, but they are not an excuse. The bottom line is that I don't have a right to a jersey and some "business" does not have the right to sell something created by someone else. They have that right no more than I have the right to make cola and sell it as "Pepsi."

The main beef I have with this post is "There's blame to be had on both sides". I don't agree. The owners could protect themselves more, but the burden should not be on them

In any case, since we've moved on from "analogygate" there's not much more to say that has not been said in the previous 117 pages....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing you say (with the exceptions of some wording I may tweak) is untrue. But I find your focus to be a little too much on the IP owners and not enough on the actual perpetrators. Inflated prices may "lead" to this, but they are not an excuse. The bottom line is that I don't have a right to a jersey and some "business" does not have the right to sell something created by someone else. They have that right no more than I have the right to make cola and sell it as "Pepsi."

The main beef I have with this post is "There's blame to be had on both sides". I don't agree. The owners could protect themselves more, but the burden should not be on them

In any case, since we've moved on from "analogygate" there's not much more to say that has not been said in the previous 117 pages....

Actually I disagree somewhat having dealt with this issue first hand. A couple of points.

  • We can all agree that counterfeiting is IP theft and illegal in the US.
  • Purchasing all counterfeit goods is also illegal but rarely enforced.
  • IP owners can often unintentionally create a market for counterfeits by pricing out or restricting supply to segments of their customer base.
  • It's often up to the IP owners to enforce their own anti-counterfeiting measures due to lack of law enforcement resources.
  • IP owners need to factor the cost of counterfeiting/lost sales/damage to the brand when bringing their product to market.

In a nutshell, counterfeiting is illegal but also a cost of doing business if you are an IP owner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

High costs are an excellent reason not to buy authentic jersey... but they are not a reason to buy fake jerseys. There are a plethora of options available for those reasonable enough not to spend $300 on a shirt.

1. Buy jerseys on sale. This doesn't help MUCH (10-20% usually) but there it is. Personally, I was able to get the new Marlins jerseys at 40% off about half-way through 2012.

2. Buy lower tier jerseys. It is an infinitely more authentic statement of fandom to wear a legitimate replica than a fake "authentic." I still have and wear some of my replicas.

3. Buy closeouts and second-hand jerseys. When teams trade players, change manufacturers or update their jerseys, they liquidate their existing backstock... which allows fans to get legitimate jerseys are more reasonable prices (I have a silver Patriots Alt that I paid ~$85 for). Authentic blank baseball jerseys can be had for ~$30.

4. Buy game used jerseys. If you're talking about jerseys from non-star players, you can actually get them cheaper than retail authentics (again, this is especially true in baseball).

Would lowering the price of jerseys cut down on counterfeiting? Probably not. Any feasible reduction would not likely attract any more customers who would otherwise buy fakes for ~$60. What would address some of the problems is making the process more dexterous. The NFL did not have Tim Tebow jerseys in 2011, so when his popularity peaked at the end of the 2011 season... every Bronco fan wore a fake because that's all that was available. The same is true of Colin Kaepernick in 2012.

I think that the ideal solution to counterfeiting would be re-introducing competition in the market. Let teams determine their own manufacturers (maybe restrict it to 2-3 authorized vendors)... so that you can have the manufacturers compete for your dollars. If Nike cannot make a Colin Kaepernick jersey before Adidas, then they lose out on that business. If Reebok's quality cannot match Nike's, they lose out on sales. If Adidas jerseys cost too much, then they lose out on sales to others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your 4th point is especially true. Last year I picked up a game worn Christian Hanson Leafs jersey for $200 and a Lyle Overbay Jays jersey for $50.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at the Cleveland Indians team store last year and they had game worn and game issued jerseys of unknown players for like $50, I'm still kicking myself for not picking one up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got an Eric Gunderson Blue Jays jersey from the late '90s for $50 last year. The team sells game-worn jerseys of no-namers from last year for $150, compared to $220 for a blank authentic.

I also got a Tebow Jets jersey for $30 off the NFL website a few months ago. Great deals on jerseys are actually relatively easy to find, if you know where to look.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wear my $50 Travis Schlichting jersey with pride. Plus, they have the in between (42, 46, etc) sizes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

this has nothing to do with high and mighty...I'm not justifying the price point but you're completely ignoring the cost of shipping, overstock distribution not to mention the multiple entities that get a share of the margin...what you are seeing with many types of products in the marketplace is a trend toward raising the price points which prices some consumers out of the market but allows for higher margins at the expense of loyal consumers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

this has nothing to do with high and mighty...I'm not justifying the price point but you're completely ignoring the cost of shipping, overstock distribution not to mention the multiple entities that get a share of the margin...what you are seeing with many types of products in the marketplace is a trend toward raising the price points which prices some consumers out of the market but allows for higher margins at the expense of loyal consumers.

Right, but that's not really what I meant. I understand that there's a cost to doing business. My main point isn't so much about the final cost of the product, it's about the final cost coupled with labor costs. If you're going to charge so much, you should at least pay your labor force. And since you mentioned shipping costs, it's a lot cheaper to ship a jersey from a factory in Missouri than from China.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but a jersey factory in Missouri would require employees to be paid $7.35 an hour, as opposed to $0.73 a day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made?

Hint: it's not in Germany

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made?

Hint: it's not in Germany

What's more, companies can be pressured into improving the conditions of their factories and the integrity of their supply chain. Nike has not exactly turned their factories into day-spas... but they have done a lot more than you can expect of counterfeiters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

this has nothing to do with high and mighty...I'm not justifying the price point but you're completely ignoring the cost of shipping, overstock distribution not to mention the multiple entities that get a share of the margin...what you are seeing with many types of products in the marketplace is a trend toward raising the price points which prices some consumers out of the market but allows for higher margins at the expense of loyal consumers.

Right, but that's not really what I meant. I understand that there's a cost to doing business. My main point isn't so much about the final cost of the product, it's about the final cost coupled with labor costs. If you're going to charge so much, you should at least pay your labor force. And since you mentioned shipping costs, it's a lot cheaper to ship a jersey from a factory in Missouri than from China.

I'm totally on board with fair trade. It's disgusting hearing about the labor conditions in some countries. Just look at what happened at that garment factory in Malaysia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made?

Hint: it's not in Germany

I'm aware of that. I already said that I don't support counterfeiters. However, and forgive my naïvety here, but it seems like the money would be a lot more evenly distributed in a counterfeit shop that doesn't have 1,000 employees in multiple countries.

Yes, but a jersey factory in Missouri would require employees to be paid $7.35 an hour, as opposed to $0.73 a day.

Exactly my point. What's the problem with that? The message here is that it's okay for companies to enjoy the luxuries that the United States provides, but it's okay to send jobs overseas that pay peanuts in order for your shareholders to gain an extra 5%. We're definitely not seeing any savings on the retail sticker. It's a morality issue, just the same as counterfeiting. That's why I don't support either side. I'm not going to lie...I have and DO buy jerseys from legit sources, never counterfeit, but I feel bad about supporting low working conditions every time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the takeaway is to build fakes in the US, right?

I'm only half-joking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made?

Hint: it's not in Germany

What's more, companies can be pressured into improving the conditions of their factories and the integrity of their supply chain. Nike has not exactly turned their factories into day-spas... but they have done a lot more than you can expect of counterfeiters.

That would be a neat trick as a large portion of the counterfiet good on the market (and I mean all fake good not just football and hockey jerseys) are made in exaclty the same factories as the real thing. Do some reading on the fake trade the evidence is all there.

9erssteve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

High costs are an excellent reason not to buy authentic jersey... but they are not a reason to buy fake jerseys. There are a plethora of options available for those reasonable enough not to spend $300 on a shirt.

I never said it was a reason to buy one, just that it was the reason for it and the trades existence. They're two very different things.

1. Buy jerseys on sale. This doesn't help MUCH (10-20% usually) but there it is. Personally, I was able to get the new Marlins jerseys at 40% off about half-way through 2012.

2. Buy lower tier jerseys. It is an infinitely more authentic statement of fandom to wear a legitimate replica than a fake "authentic." I still have and wear some of my replicas.

3. Buy closeouts and second-hand jerseys. When teams trade players, change manufacturers or update their jerseys, they liquidate their existing backstock... which allows fans to get legitimate jerseys are more reasonable prices (I have a silver Patriots Alt that I paid ~$85 for). Authentic blank baseball jerseys can be had for ~$30.

4. Buy game used jerseys. If you're talking about jerseys from non-star players, you can actually get them cheaper than retail authentics (again, this is especially true in baseball).

I personally go with option two and have no problem with it at all, but the issue with a grat many of the other options you list is that they involve waiting, and lack of patience is another reason the counterfiet trade exists. The vast majority of fans could probably over time save up and get a genuine authentic, but with player turnover in sports at an all time high, will the player you want still be on the team by the time you've saved the cash? Not how I'd go but that's how some justify it I'm sure.

Would lowering the price of jerseys cut down on counterfeiting? Probably not. Any feasible reduction would not likely attract any more customers who would otherwise buy fakes for ~$60. What would address some of the problems is making the process more dexterous. The NFL did not have Tim Tebow jerseys in 2011, so when his popularity peaked at the end of the 2011 season... every Bronco fan wore a fake because that's all that was available. The same is true of Colin Kaepernick in 2012.

I agree about the speed with which "hot" players jerseys become avaiable, it's essentially what I was saying about patience, but still believe if you could get a Nike Limited jersey for $90 instead of $120 a lot of people would be more inclined to go for that than a poorly made authentic for $60 especially when you see how inaccurate some are. Again it's about moving people to legit product not getting them to invest in the highest level of the legit product right away.

I think that the ideal solution to counterfeiting would be re-introducing competition in the market. Let teams determine their own manufacturers (maybe restrict it to 2-3 authorized vendors)... so that you can have the manufacturers compete for your dollars. If Nike cannot make a Colin Kaepernick jersey before Adidas, then they lose out on that business. If Reebok's quality cannot match Nike's, they lose out on sales. If Adidas jerseys cost too much, then they lose out on sales to others.

That might help, but the ideal solution would have been not setting up shop in a part of the world that has a total disregard for ANY form of copyright law. China has a fake WHITE HOUSE for crying out loud, they've ripped off ENTIRE DISTRICTS from countries ALL OVER THE WORLD and when it was pointed out to them in court that architecture is also protected the court system over there essentially said, we're China we can do what we like. If they're like that with famous buildings from around the world how the hell are you supposed to stop them copying what are essentially over priced t-shirts?

9erssteve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.