North American Pro Soccer 2014

[VictoriaGooner]

You don't have to limit yourself to 20 clubs if you go to a single table format. You could go to s maximum of 24 or 26. Yes I know promotion and relegation is something we probably won't see in the next 20-30 years unless a second and third division gets created under the MLS umbrella. But who knows by then NASL and USL PRO are pulled into the mix. As for the Canadian clubs withering and dying, all three clubs are more financially stable than half the US based clubs.

[gosioux76]

If I were an investor looking to own a professional soccer franchise, I'd never consider it if promotion/relegation were on the table. One bad season and the value of your investment tanks. U.S. fans won't pay major league prices for a minor league product, even if they have the chance of becoming major league again.

[rams80]

You don't have to limit yourself to 20 clubs if you go to a single table format. You could go to s maximum of 24 or 26. Yes I know promotion and relegation is something we probably won't see in the next 20-30 years unless a second and third division gets created under the MLS umbrella. But who knows by then NASL and USL PRO are pulled into the mix. As for the Canadian clubs withering and dying, all three clubs are more financially stable than half the US based clubs.

Good for them.

You can't run a league with 3 teams-it'd be the financial instability of teams 4-10/12/14/16/whatever that destroys the "Canadian Premier League"

[Gothamite]

If I were an investor looking to own a professional soccer franchise, I'd never consider it if promotion/relegation were on the table. One bad season and the value of your investment tanks. U.S. fans won't pay major league prices for a minor league product, even if they have the chance of becoming major league again.

And few cities will pony up for a 25.000 seat stadium if it might be hosting a minor-league club by the time it opens.

[DS729]

You don't have to limit yourself to 20 clubs if you go to a single table format. You could go to s maximum of 24 or 26. Yes I know promotion and relegation is something we probably won't see in the next 20-30 years unless a second and third division gets created under the MLS umbrella. But who knows by then NASL and USL PRO are pulled into the mix. As for the Canadian clubs withering and dying, all three clubs are more financially stable than half the US based clubs.

You're delusional. The MLS is not striving to be a European league, they're striving to be a North American Soccer League, and conferences and playoffs are American things, and the happen to also make loads of money. The MLS is not trying to follow the structure of the major European leagues, they're following the North American way of sports, which is already on display in Mexico. Your dreams of a European-ized MLS are impossible and unrealistic, no single table, no promotion/relegation is ever going to exist.

[Gothamite]

Exactly.

No North American league is going to forego playoffs. It's a non-starter.

[Corvus]

Look, wanting the MLS to function the way any of the European domestic leagues function is just ignorant of the factors that effect MLS. I mean, have you looked at a map lately?

MLS is different, but it is appropriate to the environment that it operates in.

[VictoriaGooner]

I have nothing against play-offs, and yes it's "American sports" way but why does every sport in the US has to break the mold from a working formula. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the calibre of play in the MLS as it's getting better each year. Especially with the signing of established European players as designed players. I am just hoping Don Garber and MLS doesn't change too much in the coming years that will dilute the talent pool of players wanting to play in North America

[rams80]

OK, I'll say it.

From a standings perspective, European soccer is boring. The same, richest teams, win every year. La Liga has only had 5 champions in the last 30 years (and 26 of those titles are shared by two teams.) Ligue 1 is more spread out, but please note Olympique Lyonnais' run of dominance. The Premiership has had 5 champions in its existence, and one of those is a WTF Blackburn Rovers team early in the league's run, Bundesliga has 6 with a few WTF champions, Serie A has had 7 champs since 1990, but 4 of those are of the 1 win only model.

That mold doesn't work unless you cheer for one of the rich teams. At least playoffs add uncertainty and parity.

[Gothamite]

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

The best thing about promotion and relegation is how exciting it makes the last seasons of the year. Teams which would have nothing to play for in MLS are fighting for their very lives. Plus good-but-not-great teams are competing for slots in one of the European competitions. It's amazing.

That having been said, the model wouldn't work in the US. So we have our own way of making the end of the season relevant.

[VictoriaGooner]

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

The best thing about promotion and relegation is how exciting it makes the last seasons of the year. Teams which would have nothing to play for in MLS are fighting for their very lives. Plus good-but-not-great teams are competing for slots in one of the European competitions. It's amazing.

That having been said, the model wouldn't work in the US. So we have our own way of making the end of the season relevant.

Those are things that I enjoy about the European model as well. I know it would be hard to emulate it over here in North America. All I'm saying is that I would like to see a single table model sometime in the future but it will probably nevver happen

[Gothamite]

There are just too many reasons not to do it.

[rams80]

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

The best thing about promotion and relegation is how exciting it makes the last seasons of the year. Teams which would have nothing to play for in MLS are fighting for their very lives. Plus good-but-not-great teams are competing for slots in one of the European competitions. It's amazing.

That having been said, the model wouldn't work in the US. So we have our own way of making the end of the season relevant.

At the end of the day the fight to survive is irrelevant unless you like to gawk at trainwrecks. If teams like Man U or Olympique or Milan or Bayern Munchen or Barca would ever be threatened with dropping down it might be different, but no, the league title comes down to the same 3 or 4 teams every year, 8 teams are trying to avoid the trainwreck, and most of the remaining 8 are filling out the schedule.

Hell, even promotion and relegation typically just concerns the same cluster of 10 teams. The most exciting thing is when you see a team pull a Leeds and fall when they are financially overextended.

[Nyk33]

I have nothing against play-offs, and yes it's "American sports" way but why does every sport in the US has to break the mold from a working formula. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the calibre of play in the MLS as it's getting better each year. Especially with the signing of established European players as designed players. I am just hoping Don Garber and MLS doesn't change too much in the coming years that will dilute the talent pool of players wanting to play in North America

The reason why the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL don't adopt a "working formula" is because they know what works and doesn't work in the United States and Canada.

The NFL is one of the most financially stable sports league on the planet because it knows what people in the North American market want to most. The working formula in North America is different from the working formulas in Europe and Latin America.

[NJTank]

The problem with relegation is a major market like Toronto with a soccer specific stadium, would never see the MLS again. Toronto FC is so bad they would be relegated to a Pee Wee league.

[Still MIGHTY]

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

The best thing about promotion and relegation is how exciting it makes the last seasons of the year. Teams which would have nothing to play for in MLS are fighting for their very lives. Plus good-but-not-great teams are competing for slots in one of the European competitions. It's amazing.

That having been said, the model wouldn't work in the US. So we have our own way of making the end of the season relevant.

Amazing is a stretch.

As much as I like the EPL, I'm with Rams. Maybe that's because I chose Manchester United as my club (NOTE: I had no idea about Man U's history or rep at the time of decision.), but I see it how he does. It's the Big 4 plus the occasional Tottenham in the title race (and almost always in the Champions League), then it's the QPR/Swansea's of the world that float back and forth on the promotion/relegation line, and then there's the oh-so-blah middle of the Sunderlands/Blackburn/Fulhams/Aston Villas of the world. And sure some of those mid-table teams are playing for the Europa League, but, c'mon... the Europa League?

I know we have plenty of fans of those mid-table teams (many because they didn't want to join the Big 4/5 conglomerate, and I respect that), but it's not something I could ever invest myself in. There's a few in there that I'll support like Everton or Fulham (mostly because of Tim Howard's, Landon Donovan's, and Clint Dempsey's time there) and want to see them do well, but it's not something I could commit to full time.

[VictoriaGooner]

I have plenty of friends here in North America and in England who support mid table teams in different divisions throughout England. They enjoy the exposure they have with their club board of directors, management and players than say the big club in the BPL. Plus when a mid table team makes a cup final, it means more to them an event.

[crashcarson15]

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

The best thing about promotion and relegation is how exciting it makes the last seasons of the year. Teams which would have nothing to play for in MLS are fighting for their very lives. Plus good-but-not-great teams are competing for slots in one of the European competitions. It's amazing.

That having been said, the model wouldn't work in the US. So we have our own way of making the end of the season relevant.

Amazing is a stretch.

As much as I like the EPL, I'm with Rams. Maybe that's because I chose Manchester United as my club (NOTE: I had no idea about Man U's history or rep at the time of decision.), but I see it how he does. It's the Big 4 plus the occasional Tottenham in the title race (and almost always in the Champions League), then it's the QPR/Swansea's of the world that float back and forth on the promotion/relegation line, and then there's the oh-so-blah middle of the Sunderlands/Blackburn/Fulhams/Aston Villas of the world. And sure some of those mid-table teams are playing for the Europa League, but, c'mon... the Europa League?

I know we have plenty of fans of those mid-table teams (many because they didn't want to join the Big 4/5 conglomerate, and I respect that), but it's not something I could ever invest myself in. There's a few in there that I'll support like Everton or Fulham (mostly because of Tim Howard's, Landon Donovan's, and Clint Dempsey's time there) and want to see them do well, but it's not something I could commit to full time.

The Europa League things becomes a little more legitimate next year when the champions of the tournament gain entry to the Champions League. It's a slightly more attainable route for a club like Southampton to somehow break into the Champions League.

Being an Aston Villa fan is... I don't know a little frustrating? We've never been relegated from the Premier League (knock on wood) and the last four seasons have been pretty :censored:ty—but it's pretty normal for the club to spend a few years languishing lower mid table only to bounce back with a few years pushing the top four (but never breaking it).

I guess the reason to support a club like Villa is the enjoyment of the chase and the dream. If you root for the rich clubs (like I've found myself doing inadvertently with PSG in Ligue 1), I just don't get how it's enjoyable. I mean, hell, if you're a Manchester United supporter and the club wins 25 matches but finishes second, it's considered a failure of a season. How is that enjoyable?

If Villa get back into the top four, it'd be crazy. That's what's fun about it I guess?

[VictoriaGooner]

Oh, I wouldn't say that.

The best thing about promotion and relegation is how exciting it makes the last seasons of the year. Teams which would have nothing to play for in MLS are fighting for their very lives. Plus good-but-not-great teams are competing for slots in one of the European competitions. It's amazing.

That having been said, the model wouldn't work in the US. So we have our own way of making the end of the season relevant.

Amazing is a stretch.

As much as I like the EPL, I'm with Rams. Maybe that's because I chose Manchester United as my club (NOTE: I had no idea about Man U's history or rep at the time of decision.), but I see it how he does. It's the Big 4 plus the occasional Tottenham in the title race (and almost always in the Champions League), then it's the QPR/Swansea's of the world that float back and forth on the promotion/relegation line, and then there's the oh-so-blah middle of the Sunderlands/Blackburn/Fulhams/Aston Villas of the world. And sure some of those mid-table teams are playing for the Europa League, but, c'mon... the Europa League?

I know we have plenty of fans of those mid-table teams (many because they didn't want to join the Big 4/5 conglomerate, and I respect that), but it's not something I could ever invest myself in. There's a few in there that I'll support like Everton or Fulham (mostly because of Tim Howard's, Landon Donovan's, and Clint Dempsey's time there) and want to see them do well, but it's not something I could commit to full time.

The Europa League things becomes a little more legitimate next year when the champions of the tournament gain entry to the Champions League. It's a slightly more attainable route for a club like Southampton to somehow break into the Champions League.

Being an Aston Villa fan is... I don't know a little frustrating? We've never been relegated from the Premier League (knock on wood) and the last four seasons have been pretty :censored:ty—but it's pretty normal for the club to spend a few years languishing lower mid table only to bounce back with a few years pushing the top four (but never breaking it).

I guess the reason to support a club like Villa is the enjoyment of the chase and the dream. If you root for the rich clubs (like I've found myself doing inadvertently with PSG in Ligue 1), I just don't get how it's enjoyable. I mean, hell, if you're a Manchester United supporter and the club wins 25 matches but finishes second, it's considered a failure of a season. How is that enjoyable?

If Villa get back into the top four, it'd be crazy. That's what's fun about it I guess?

Spot on mate...

[Still MIGHTY]

I see your points, but you also acknowledge that it's frustrating and you'll probably never see Aston Villa win an EPL/UCL title. For me, that's not enjoyable. Cheering for the hope that your team makes it to 8th place one season to get into the 2nd tier European competition the next season for the hope of maybe winning the whole thing to just qualify for the Champions League the season after that just doesn't thrill me.

At the very least, in American sports, you can be a division champion or a conference champion even if you're not winning the whole thing. But also, even if you just get into 8th place, you at least get the shot at winning the whole thing in the NHL or NBA (one more so than the other, obviously), and even those aren't straight up 8th place like it would be in a single table.

And regarding the Manchester United 2nd = failure thing, I mean that's how any perennial championship fan base feels. Specifically me as a Laker fan, we don't have division or conference banners at Staples Center, and the talk on radio or in the media isn't when are they going to be good enough for the playoffs, it's always championship or bust. I'm sure it's the same if you're a Yankee fan or a Red Wings fan or a Celtics fan or a Bayern Munich/Real Madrid/Barcelona/AC Milan/Inter Milan/Arsenal/Chelsea/etc fan. Even in MLS, the LA Galaxy aren't just hoping to make the playoffs or just get to the MLS Cup, they want to win the whole thing.

I also think the single table championships tend to be a little anti-climatic. You don't always get instances like you had a couple years ago with Man City vs QPR to clinch over Man United. Most times, you'll win the title with two or three or maybe more games left in the season, and when you do, it's pretty much a formality. There's not the same "drive to the championship" like a playoff provides.

Basically back to the whole point of this discussion, the European model of competition just wouldn't fit the North American mindset. Promotion/Relegation wouldn't work because of numerous other reasons, but the general American fan probably wouldn't take to it or to the single table standings. It's just not how we're trained by following our other sports. I'd probably also wager that the same general American fan probably doesn't give a moment of thought to things like the US Open Cup or CCL, because those out of season competitions are also foreign to the traditional North American set up.