Mizzou's Michael Sam comes out

[Jimmy!]

I'm Christian/Catholic and I look at it this way...it doesn't matter if it is a sin because our job is to build up and support. Our job isn't to judge, I believe that is God's job.

The problem is that neo-Christian radical leaders (Westboro Baptist, Hispanics, Bible Belt Southeast U.S., etc) tend to believe that God went all Joan-of-Arc on them, and told those leaders to harass, torture, humiliate and make it as painful as possible for homosexual people to live freely in this world, and to pass these insights of hate to their parishioners.

Yup, that's exactly right. I know I'm taking this way too personal, but as a Southern Baptist living in the South it's really frustrating to have my views lumped in with Westboro all the time. They are lunatics in every sense of the word.

It seems as if many of you are unaware of why some Christians are anti-gay. It comes from Genesis 19, when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed after men demanded to have sex with two of Lot's guests - so basically a gang rape. Long story short, Lot says no, they rape the guests anyways. An angel comes to Lot and says to get out of there because the city was going to be destroyed for their many sins. The city gets burned to a crisp.

Not to further derail this, but there was no biblical gang rape in Genesis 19. The offenders in question were struck with blindness and S and G was torched before the offense could take place. You may be thinking of Judges 19.

Sorry. But if you're gonna use scripture, use it right.

[dbadefense1990]

In a sense, you've condridicted yourself. You say Hispanics are all the way you've described your friends parents. But then you said that most 1st Gen Latinos are open. So what you mean is some are against gays.

The problem is that their clergy leaders are older and hold on to more traditional "family values." The parents (i.e. Immigrants) are then told, by these leaders, to irrationalize gays and to spread those beliefs to the kids. Of course, your parents are the biggest influencer of how you judge others in the future, and for some of these people's offspring, they tend to follow their parent's suit of being anti-gay. But Gen X, Millennial and Gen Z Latino-Americans, as are most youth, are mostly open to gays being given the same civil rights as other people. Give it a generation or two to see if Catholic leaders will begin to tolerate the rally cries of gays, or at least denounce all forms of harassment of pro-gay supporters.

This makes the current Pope the big exception to the rule. Other leaders before him (especially Pope Benedict XVI) would put forth the effort in quashing such pro-gay movements, and embarrassing same sex proponents. Pope Francis, however, does disagree with their positioning (understandable), but respects those opinions and will allow pro-gay supporters to voice their cause, even to the face of Catholic leaders.

https://www.catholicvote.org/did-pope-francis-say-homosexual-behavior-is-ok/

[Eye]

In a sense, you've condridicted yourself. You say Hispanics are all the way you've described your friends parents. But then you said that most 1st Gen Latinos are open. So what you mean is some are against gays.

The problem is that their clergy leaders are older and hold on to more traditional "family values." The parents (i.e. Immigrants) are then told, by these leaders, to irrationalize gays and to spread those beliefs to the kids. Of course, your parents are the biggest influencer of how you judge others in the future, and for some of these people's offspring, they tend to follow their parent's suit of being anti-gay. But Gen X, Millennial and Gen Z Latino-Americans, as are most youth, are mostly open to gays being given the same civil rights as other people. Give it a generation or two to see if Catholic leaders will begin to tolerate the rally cries of gays, or at least denounce all forms of harassment of pro-gay supporters.

This makes the current Pope the big exception to the rule. Other leaders before him (especially Pope Benedict XVI) would put forth the effort in quashing such pro-gay movements, and embarrassing same sex proponents. Pope Francis, however, does disagree with their positioning (understandable), but respects those opinions and will allow pro-gay supporters to voice their cause, even to the face of Catholic leaders.

https://www.catholicvote.org/did-pope-francis-say-homosexual-behavior-is-ok/

Well, the Pope says that you have to be a believer and you're A-ok. He sure doesn't appear to care about gays who aren't believers. There are probably better examples of people who accept everyone who is gay, not just those who share the same religion (many of us on this board, including me, would come to mind.)

Good people are good people with or without their religion, and it's nice to see that many of us feel that gays should have equal rights, regardless of religious beliefs.

[Gothamite]

But go ahead and say you're so enlightened while marginalizing my point of view and lifestyle, which is no different than people marginalizing people who just happen to love someone who has the same chromosome structure.

No.

No, no, no, no.

Can you be fired just because your boss doesn't like those beliefs? Are you prohibited from marrying in any state? Are there states with laws preventing you from adopting children?

I'm very sorry, but unless you can answer "yes" to every one of those questions, your situation is very different.

I appreciate your remarks about baby mommas, though. Most NFL teams have a sliding scale of what they're willing to accept - we'll see how deep the fear of a gay player really runs.

[OnWis97]

But go ahead and say you're so enlightened while marginalizing my point of view and lifestyle, which is no different than people marginalizing people who just happen to love someone who has the same chromosome structure.

No.

No, no, no, no.

Can you be fired just because your boss doesn't like those beliefs? Are you prohibited from marrying in any state? Are there states with laws preventing you from adopting children?

I'm very sorry, but unless you can answer "yes" to every one of those questions, your situation is very different.

I appreciate your remarks about baby mommas, though. Most NFL teams have a sliding scale of what they're willing to accept - we'll see how deep the fear of a gay player really runs.

The "D" word is being thrown around by those predicting a slide in his draft status. The "Distraction" boogeyman gets them pretty far.

Jon Stewart had a great take at the end of his Michael Sam segment:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-10-2014/friday-night-rights

[nuordr]

You can't make that statement because you do not know all the theories out there. It's not just "by birth" vs. "by choice". I know of at least one more theory, but it would be scoffed at here, so I I'm not going to explain it.

You just had someone who's a member of the LGBT community tell you that, based on personal experience, it is not a choice. What more do you need?

And what other choices are there besides "birth" or "choice"? Alien mind probes? Fluoride in the drinking water? Hypnotism via Bravo?

You say he's against a fundamental part of Mockba's being, because you believe homosexuality is by birth. Those who think that homosexuality is not by birth see it not as a "fundamental part of his being" but as actions or a lifestyle.

Those people will henceforth be referred to as "idiots."

Fake EDIT- Goth beat me to it, with a much more restrained word, but I make no apologies.

We could talk all day about whether homosexuality is by birth, but that's not the point here.

Oh, it's very much the point here. See, it's no longer acceptable to discriminate based on innate traits such as skin colour. By claiming that homosexuality is a choice they can justify their bigotry because in their minds they're not hating someone based on an innate trait.

Now as for it being a choice vs it being something you're born with? I'll spell it out very clearly for you OldRamsFan. It is not choice. I didn't choose to be attracted to men as well as women. It's just what happened when I hit puberty. If the first person account of someone in the LGBT community isn't enough for you, then you're a lost, hopeless soul.

The only choice I made was to deny half of who I was to appease people like you and nuordr. It's honestly the biggest regret of my life.

Whoa, hold the phone. You need to stop assuming. Have I said even once in these forums whether I believe homosexuality is by birth or by choice?

People who have accepted the fact that homosexuality is something you're born with generally do not defend the actions of the uninformed who claim it's a choice, as you have with nuordr.

Why so angry? I don't have anything against you and I never asked you to appease me.

I said "people like you."

EDIT- You're right, I have been making a lot of assumption regarding your opinions here. Thing is, I'm just basing those assumptions on what you've written. If myself (and others) are off base you'd do yourself a lot of favours in this discussion by explaining what you believe.

And as for being angry? I tend to get angry when people say they hate me. I'm not overly fond of National Socialists either.

I am simply asking the people who preach tolerance to be a little tolerant of differing opinions themselves..

Again, I ask you this question (it would be nice if I could get an answer). Do you believe that a black man should respect the opinions of a Klansman? No. So why should a member of the LGBT community respect the opinions of a homophobe? I'm not intolerant of Christianity or religion. Lord knows I've spent enough time defending faith on these forums in spite of the truly idiotic who claim to be faithful.

What I'm intolerant of is the one thing it is ok to be intolerant of. Intolerance. I don't care what colour your skin is, what sex you identify as, who you're attracted to, what your gender is, or what deity you pray to, if you even pray to one at all. I don't care if you're a liberal or a conservative, a socialist or a libertarian, what your income is, or what job you have. If you're a bigot though? I have no use for you.

Ice_Cap - Since your throwing my name around about birth or choice, let me jump in and tell you my thought on it.

Everyday babies are born into this world and I personally (unlike a lot of my Christian friends) think a child can be born gay. I know for a fact that babies born with extra genes are 70-80% (according to my personal doctor) more likely to be gay (47,XXY, XXY - Klinefelter's Syndrome) because they see the world as both male and female. I also believe that babies are born as alcohlics and druggies because their mothers did not care for thier body and baby during pregnancy. However, I believe that just because the odds are against a person, they can overcome such odds and in my case be a straight man.

Now, I do believe that people can be do depressed with their life that they can choose to try a different path in life. I once knew a man that lost everything in life, his wife and house because of stupid decisions he made. He fell into a deep depression and when one of his friends (who happened to be gay) pulled him out of that funk, they ended up having a relationship for about a year. Now, this same man has remarried and has one kid with his wife. There are a lot of people that like to experiement and I believe a lot of people have experimented with homosexuality and never tried it again. I once dated this woman (one month because she was psycho) that wanted to try everything once, whether it was sexually related or drugs, she said she wanted to know every possible feeling before she died.

In addition, we are born into *Sin (scriptures below) and I believe all sin (lying, fornication, homosexuality, murder, adultry, and much, much more) all started with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. I blame Adam for standing next to Eve and watching her take from the forbidden tree and I blame Eve for not following God's command. This was the creation of sin as we know it today, and no matter what you believe about me, I believe like God that no sin is greater than any other. But there are a lot of Religions throughout the world that believe homosexuality is the worst and they could not be more mistaken in my opinion. As I believe you can seek forgiveness through repentness for sin, but if you take your life, then you lose the chance to seek forgiveness and that is a much higher sin than the rest.

*Psalm 51:5 / Psalm 58:3 / 1 Corinthians 15:22

[SuperLeafsFan]

Good for him. I hope that his draft stock doesn't fall, and he continues to have a good NFL career. Hopefully this gets rid of some bias some people still have today. Stereotypes are just plain stupid. Can't we all just treat eachother how you want to be treated? Imagine that your best friend or a colleague was gay, and they came out to you 1st because they trusted you. What would you do then?

[monkeypower]

You can't make that statement because you do not know all the theories out there. It's not just "by birth" vs. "by choice". I know of at least one more theory, but it would be scoffed at here, so I I'm not going to explain it.

You just had someone who's a member of the LGBT community tell you that, based on personal experience, it is not a choice. What more do you need?

And what other choices are there besides "birth" or "choice"? Alien mind probes? Fluoride in the drinking water? Hypnotism via Bravo?

You say he's against a fundamental part of Mockba's being, because you believe homosexuality is by birth. Those who think that homosexuality is not by birth see it not as a "fundamental part of his being" but as actions or a lifestyle.

Those people will henceforth be referred to as "idiots."

Fake EDIT- Goth beat me to it, with a much more restrained word, but I make no apologies.

We could talk all day about whether homosexuality is by birth, but that's not the point here.

Oh, it's very much the point here. See, it's no longer acceptable to discriminate based on innate traits such as skin colour. By claiming that homosexuality is a choice they can justify their bigotry because in their minds they're not hating someone based on an innate trait.

Now as for it being a choice vs it being something you're born with? I'll spell it out very clearly for you OldRamsFan. It is not choice. I didn't choose to be attracted to men as well as women. It's just what happened when I hit puberty. If the first person account of someone in the LGBT community isn't enough for you, then you're a lost, hopeless soul.

The only choice I made was to deny half of who I was to appease people like you and nuordr. It's honestly the biggest regret of my life.

Whoa, hold the phone. You need to stop assuming. Have I said even once in these forums whether I believe homosexuality is by birth or by choice?

People who have accepted the fact that homosexuality is something you're born with generally do not defend the actions of the uninformed who claim it's a choice, as you have with nuordr.

Why so angry? I don't have anything against you and I never asked you to appease me.

I said "people like you."

EDIT- You're right, I have been making a lot of assumption regarding your opinions here. Thing is, I'm just basing those assumptions on what you've written. If myself (and others) are off base you'd do yourself a lot of favours in this discussion by explaining what you believe.

And as for being angry? I tend to get angry when people say they hate me. I'm not overly fond of National Socialists either.

I am simply asking the people who preach tolerance to be a little tolerant of differing opinions themselves..

Again, I ask you this question (it would be nice if I could get an answer). Do you believe that a black man should respect the opinions of a Klansman? No. So why should a member of the LGBT community respect the opinions of a homophobe? I'm not intolerant of Christianity or religion. Lord knows I've spent enough time defending faith on these forums in spite of the truly idiotic who claim to be faithful.

What I'm intolerant of is the one thing it is ok to be intolerant of. Intolerance. I don't care what colour your skin is, what sex you identify as, who you're attracted to, what your gender is, or what deity you pray to, if you even pray to one at all. I don't care if you're a liberal or a conservative, a socialist or a libertarian, what your income is, or what job you have. If you're a bigot though? I have no use for you.

Ice_Cap - Since your throwing my name around about birth or choice, let me jump in and tell you my thought on it.

Everyday babies are born into this world and I personally (unlike a lot of my Christian friends) think a child can be born gay. I know for a fact that babies born with extra genes are 70-80% (according to my personal doctor) more likely to be gay (47,XXY, XXY - Klinefelter's Syndrome) because they see the world as both male and female. I also believe that babies are born as alcohlics and druggies because their mothers did not care for thier body and baby during pregnancy. However, I believe that just because the odds are against a person, they can overcome such odds and in my case be a straight man.

Now, I do believe that people can be do depressed with their life that they can choose to try a different path in life. I once knew a man that lost everything in life, his wife and house because of stupid decisions he made. He fell into a deep depression and when one of his friends (who happened to be gay) pulled him out of that funk, they ended up having a relationship for about a year. Now, this same man has remarried and has one kid with his wife. There are a lot of people that like to experiement and I believe a lot of people have experimented with homosexuality and never tried it again. I once dated this woman (one month because she was psycho) that wanted to try everything once, whether it was sexually related or drugs, she said she wanted to know every possible feeling before she died.

In addition, we are born into *Sin (scriptures below) and I believe all sin (lying, fornication, homosexuality, murder, adultry, and much, much more) all started with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. I blame Adam for standing next to Eve and watching her take from the forbidden tree and I blame Eve for not following God's command. This was the creation of sin as we know it today, and no matter what you believe about me, I believe like God that no sin is greater than any other. But there are a lot of Religions throughout the world that believe homosexuality is the worst and they could not be more mistaken in my opinion. As I believe you can seek forgiveness through repentness for sin, but if you take your life, then you lose the chance to seek forgiveness and that is a much higher sin than the rest.

*Psalm 51:5 / Psalm 58:3 / 1 Corinthians 15:22

Chances are Adam and Eve weren't real people.

[Gothamite]

I agree, but for the purposes of his own life it doesn't matter:

In addition, we are born into *Sin (scriptures below) and I believe all sin (lying, fornication, homosexuality, murder, adultry, and much, much more) all started with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden.

I accept and respect your belief in the existence of sin and its source.

The problem comes when people with such religious beliefs (not saying you) decide that they can codify them into law so that we are all bound by them. That's when I stop respecting it, and that's when we start to fight it tooth and nail.

People of strong conservative religious faith don't have to like gay people. They do have to respect gay people far enough to extend them the civil rights of all citizens, though. That's the beauty of living in a pluralistic society.

[Sport]

"When I found out I had to leave Denny's and go to Applebee's for drinks"

- Michael Sam Sr.

[-kj]

Nuordr: There's a world of difference between fully heterosexual and fully homosexual. (The Kinsey scale is a reasonable representation of this.) Having a relationship with someone of a particular gender then having a relationship with someone from a different gender doesn't mean they've "changed" from one to the other.

Just throwing this in here... http://www.logcabin.org/

Can we throw them back out? I can't stand the Log Cabin Republicans. They keep going back to the party that hurts them.

Back on topic, good for Michael Sam. I can't imagine feeling like I couldn't tell my family something that was such a major part of my life.

This. So much this. I'm very lucky that my family's been very accepting; to them it's just part of who I am.

Personal anecdote time:

When I was in college, my mom used to ask if I'd found a girlfriend. When I came out (after having dropped out of college; that's a loooong story), of course, she stopped asking. Within a few months, she started asking if I'd found a nice boyfriend yet. That's when I knew things were totally cool.

[IceCap]

However, I believe that just because the odds are against a person, they can overcome such odds and in my case be a straight man.

See, there's the rub. I don't feel the need to change who I am. I already did that, for a lot longer then I should have. You see homosexuality, even if you admit it's something innate, as something that needs to be overcome. I don't. I see it as no different from skin or eye colour. It's just part of who I am, and I feel no need to continue to appease people such as yourself by pretending otherwise.

Now, I do believe that people can be do depressed with their life that they can choose to try a different path in life. I once knew a man that lost everything in life, his wife and house because of stupid decisions he made. He fell into a deep depression and when one of his friends (who happened to be gay) pulled him out of that funk, they ended up having a relationship for about a year. Now, this same man has remarried and has one kid with his wife. There are a lot of people that like to experiement and I believe a lot of people have experimented with homosexuality and never tried it again. I once dated this woman (one month because she was psycho) that wanted to try everything once, whether it was sexually related or drugs, she said she wanted to know every possible feeling before she died.

Ever heard of bisexuality? It's what I am. I'm currently in a homosexual relationship, but I'm also attracted to women. If things with my boyfriend don't work out I may end up meeting a girl, falling in love, marrying her, and having a loving family. It doesn't mean I will have "changed." It just means I'm attracted to both sexes. It sounds that this the case with your friend and the girl you dated.

In addition, we are born into *Sin (scriptures below) and I believe all sin (lying, fornication, homosexuality, murder, adultry, and much, much more) all started with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. I blame Adam for standing next to Eve and watching her take from the forbidden tree and I blame Eve for not following God's command. This was the creation of sin as we know it today, and no matter what you believe about me, I believe like God that no sin is greater than any other. But there are a lot of Religions throughout the world that believe homosexuality is the worst and they could not be more mistaken in my opinion. As I believe you can seek forgiveness through repentness for sin, but if you take your life, then you lose the chance to seek forgiveness and that is a much higher sin than the rest.

First off, I believe in G-d. The same G-d you believe in, and we share much of the same scripture.

That being said I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. Just like I don't think eating pork and shellfish is a sin. I interpret any mention of homosexuality as a sin to be a holdover from ancient Israelite culture that long ago stopped being applicable to the world we live in. Just like the part that says that eating shellfish is bad.

I also find it incredibly insulting that you lump homosexuality in with lying, murder, and things that are actual, hurtful sins. If I hurt someone through my actions I believe that in addition to trying to make amends with them I can seek forgiveness through G-d. Yet I have never, ever felt the need to seek forgiveness from G-d for loving my boyfriend.

Just throwing this in here... http://www.logcabin.org/

Can we throw them back out? I can't stand the Log Cabin Republicans. They keep going back to the party that hurts them.

So long as the GOP insists on placating the Religious Right? I agree with you. The thing that grinds my gears is when someone says "you're LGBT? Oh, so you must be *insert political or religious affiliation here.*" As if who someone sleeps with affects what they think about regarding the tax rate or how they choose to view and understand the universe.

[illwauk]

I'm Christian/Catholic and I look at it this way...it doesn't matter if it is a sin because our job is to build up and support. Our job isn't to judge, I believe that is God's job.

The problem is that neo-Christian radical leaders (Westboro Baptist, Hispanics, Bible Belt Southeast U.S., etc) tend to believe that God went all Joan-of-Arc on them, and told those leaders to harass, torture, humiliate and make it as painful as possible for homosexual people to live freely in this world, and to pass these insights of hate to their parishioners.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding to this. You know you're effectively, by throwing people(including me) under the bus like that, you're doing the exact thing you're condemning. Now, please respond, as you didn't in the Gear Grinder thread when I called you out before.

Personal experience with my friend's parents (friends were 1st-gen Latino-Americans while parents were true immigrants) would say otherwise. The way I see religion being preached by immigrants, especially in such a heavily-concentrated area such as Southern California, make me tend to believe that those parents are in-root with opposing any rights for gays because of the whole "marriage is between a man and woman and Jesus will hate you if you think otherwise" thing. At least 1st-gen Latinos and beyond are embracing gays and lean towards religious tolerance for all, but not necessarily their parents.

As for the Southeast, I don't know that much information on them, but they tend to hold on to more traditional religious identities than, say, someone from the west coast or New England.

Now the Westboro Baptists...

Exactly.

You're throwing a massive group of people under the bus with no real legitimate points to bring to the table. You're taking a complete shot in the dark on something you know hardly anything about. If you were to call out with some facts, that's one thing, but too stereotype with no prior knowledge really is starting to drive everyone crazy. Of course, I'm not speaking for the community, that's just my opinion.

I'm not even going to attempt to defend his generalization of Hispanics (although I think I sort-of understand what he's trying to get at), but the point about the Southeast is valid. Is everyone from the Southeast a bible-thumping fundie? No... but enough people sure are that it can be objectively stated that faith-based conservatism shapes the culture of the Southeast like no other region of America.

Here's an article written by an agnostic woman about her dating experiences in Nashville that helps illustrate my point. Mind you, Nashville is one of the more cosmopolitan places in the Southeast, and yet her lack of religiosity was apparently still a problem.

[IceCap]

Nashville's not the Southeast if you ask Gary Bettman......

[/lameOTGDNHLjoke]

[NJTank]

Wow this thread hs got dizzying and hard to read.

#1 If being Gay was a choice I highly doubt many people would put up with this kind of bull :censored: the bullying and the taunts. There has to be somehing deep inside that nobody can control and must be something born into them. They have begun to study DNA and genes and there is enough proof to me that this is natural. I believe God does not mistakes, he has a reason behind everything and everybody and therefore gay people are part of that plan.

#2 The bible was written by humans. Humans have agendas and flaws and to take everything literal is a mistake.

#3 If being gay is a sin, than corrected me if I am wrong didn't somebody get nailed to a cross to forgive those sins.

#4 People are people and everybody deserves a chance, Michael Sam looks like a decent player and he should have a chance to succeed on the field. He came out and he should not be too much more detailed, but he should be allowed to be a football player who can live his life off the field.

#5 Michael Sam made a big mistake in the way he told his parents. This was something that should have been done in person, a text message is a bit odd, but his father's recation and words are quite disturbing.

#6 Parents like that are a big part of the problem. A big big part. If you get rejected by your parents there is nothing more scary or tragic.

[Xist2inspire]

Those who think that homosexuality is not by birth see it not as a "fundamental part of his being" but as actions or a lifestyle.

And we have a name for those people - Wrong.

This is what bugs me about situations like this, and it's something I've experienced growing up as a black person, and a Christian: There's always a line in the sand on both sides. Either you subscribe completely to one theory or another. Only a certain kind of tolerance is permitted, which isn't tolerance at all.

I personally believe that being a homosexual can be either by a choice or by birth, because of my personal experiences. I am aware of the fact that you can indeed be born gay, and if that's the case, then I really have no problem with you. But I also know of many people who were straight for years, until one day they decided to "switch sides." Now, some stayed, some didn't. But the mere fact that all of a sudden you can "switch" makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. Also, down here in the South, I've encountered countless people who claim gay (mostly male), but seem to use it as an excuse to act out and be excessively flamboyant. You rarely see them in the company of other gay men, and they act more like walking stereotypes than actual people. When I compare them to a Neil Patrick Harris, it really makes me wonder if they really are gay, or are they just living a false lifestyle, in much the same way as straight men who loudly and irritatingly proclaim and celebrate their "manhood" do.

Finally, I have my own experience. I'm not ashamed to admit that I have feminine qualities. Even my temperament and goals in life seem to lean more to the feminine side of things. As a preteen, I'd sneak away my mom's clothes and dress up in them at night, even stuff the bra with socks to give the appearance of breasts. To this day, I still have no idea what that was about, because I've always liked women. I have no shame in saying a dude looks good, but I like women. I never even went through the typical "eew, girls are icky" stage as a kid. I've questioned my sexuality many times, because of many things. I'm 22, and I've never come close to having a girlfriend. The first (and so far, only) time a young lady has complimented my looks is when she shot me down (you know, the dreaded "you're very handsome, but...." speech). I find a lot of typical "dude" activities as lame, pointless and not worth my time. I see no reason why I can't wear jewelry or bracelets without shame. Still, I've concluded that I'm not gay, I don't like other dudes in that way. If I ever switch, I doubt it'll be because I was born that way, it'll be because I want to see if my personality and interests will be more accepted on the other side.

Yet there are many people who would say I should be gay, based solely on some of the things that I've just said. And again, I know of other people with tendencies opposite to their sex, who had to face being told they were gay based on their tendencies, or based on the fact that no one of the opposite sex was interested in them. I know of people who were pressured to "go gay." If you don't think that peer pressure and society can play a role in a person deciding whether they're gay or not, then I don't know what to say to you.

My personal stance is this: I believe you can be born homosexual. I also believe that you can be born with traits opposite to your sex. Again, if you are born with an attraction to the opposite sex, or even both, I have no issue with you, because that's just who you are. But if you're born liking the opposite sex, yet have traits and tendencies that don't reflect that, then being gay is a a choice. Now I will not hate on or discriminate against you, because that is wrong and would also be hypocritical of me, but I do believe your choice is wrong, and if asked or prompted to, I will say so, and outline my reasons why. I would appreciate if I not be lumped in with the bigots, nor lumped in with those who are completely okay with homosexuality.

That's my main issue with conflicts such as these, both sides yell "deal with it," "you're wrong," and "you'll see who's right," without realizing that there is a very real group who's in the middle.

(I'm sorry if my continued use of the word "gay" offended anyone. I'm not certain if that's an offensive term or not.)

[Midway]

Intestesting for me to peruse through this thread. I used to be quite religious growing up with extensive experience in both the Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah's Witnesses denominations.

Naturally, I used to identify with those who used Biblical scriptures as an excuse to criticize and oppose gay people so I see where some of those sentiments are coming from. If you consider yourself to have strong faith, your mindset is always that you're simply going to have to support what you're taught the Bible says (though that is up to interpretation), and sometimes it's going to come out in a way that makes you look ignorant. And that's exactly what I was; ignorant. Over the years I eventually grew out of my religious shell and have started to look at life in general with a little more reason.

Now I'm a borderline atheist and am a major proponent of equal human rights. My support lies with people like Micheal Sam, people of action who take the big risks necessary to change the tides of social ideologies. I wish him the very best in his NFL career and that his example can encourage young people in the gay community to be more confident in who they are.

[Gothamite]

Those who think that homosexuality is not by birth see it not as a "fundamental part of his being" but as actions or a lifestyle.

And we have a name for those people - Wrong.

This is what bugs me about situations like this, and it's something I've experienced growing up as a black person, and a Christian: There's always a line in the sand on both sides. Either you subscribe completely to one theory or another. Only a certain kind of tolerance is permitted, which isn't tolerance at all.

"Tolerance" doesn't mean all opinions are equal. Never has. We don't have to be "tolerant" towards Flat Earthers when writing geography textbooks.

I also think you're conflating homosexuality with transvestism. They are in no way the same thing - plenty of cross-dressers are straight as an arrow.

Personally, I'd also think that bisexuality explains a lot of what you see as a "choice". People can be hard-wired in lots of different ways - Kinsey had a scale from "totally straight" to "exclusively homosexual" and few people exist on the poles.

[infrared41]

Just throwing this in here... http://www.logcabin.org/

Can we throw them back out? I can't stand the Log Cabin Republicans. They keep going back to the party that hurts them.

Just pointing out that conservative members of the LGBT community do exist.

[Gothamite]

Sure they do. And they deserve better than a political party that wants them to shut up and go away.