Mizzou's Michael Sam comes out

[NJTank]

Maybe they just see Big Government as evil and know that Democrats just want to use them.

[Xist2inspire]

Those who think that homosexuality is not by birth see it not as a "fundamental part of his being" but as actions or a lifestyle.

And we have a name for those people - Wrong.

This is what bugs me about situations like this, and it's something I've experienced growing up as a black person, and a Christian: There's always a line in the sand on both sides. Either you subscribe completely to one theory or another. Only a certain kind of tolerance is permitted, which isn't tolerance at all.

"Tolerance" doesn't mean all opinions are equal. Never has. We don't have to be "tolerant" towards Flat Earthers when writing geography textbooks.

I also think you're conflating homosexuality with transvestism. They are in no way the same thing - plenty of cross-dressers are straight as an arrow.

Personally, I'd also think that bisexuality explains a lot of what you see as a "choice". People can be hard-wired in lots of different ways - Kinsey had a scale from "totally straight" to "exclusively homosexual" and few people exist on the poles.

Trust me, I know the difference between transvestism and homosexuality.

And yes, bisexuality does explain some of the "gray area" in my mind. But I still think there are some gray areas that get glossed over. For example, what would you say I am? Based upon what I have told you, if I were eventually to become homo- or bisexual, would you say that I did not make a choice, when before I had lived and believed myself to be "straight"? I just find it odd that this issue specifically is the one where people want to completely eliminate the free will factor, and if you think otherwise, no matter your experiences, you're considered "wrong."

ah well, agree to disagree, I suppose.

[IceCap]

The thing about bisexuality is...well...you're attracted to both. You've said that you're attracted to women. Now if you would come out tomorrow and say "well I'm attracted to men" I'd say you're bi. Not only would I say you're bi I'd say you've always been bi. You don't just wake up one day, never having been attracted to men before, and go "I like guys now, too."

ah well, agree to disagree, I suppose.

I'm not willing to play the "we can all agree to disagree " game. Not when the idea that homosexuality is a choice is often used to justify outright discrimination.

It's a foolish statement to make, and it doesn't deserve anyone's "tolerance." Things that are just wrong aren't worthy of tolerance.

Maybe they just see Big Government as evil and know that Democrats just want to use them.

Well that's super. Hopefully one day there will be a mainstream conservative party in the United States that doesn't openly discriminate against homosexuals. Be it a reformed GOP or someone else.

As for the Dems "using" homosexuals? There's some truth to that (I point you all to the NDP's shameless rainbow garb in Parliament for a Canadian example) but let's be honest here. EVERY demographic is being used. Even the straight, white, Christian male demographic. That's part of what makes politics so dirty. Everyone's being pandered to in some way by people who are, at the very least, not being 100% sincere.

[OnWis97]

The thing about bisexuality is...well...you're attracted to both. You've said that you're attracted to women. Now if you would come out tomorrow and say "well I'm attracted to men" I'd say you're bi. Not only would I say you're bi I'd say you've always been bi. You don't just wake up one day, never having been attracted to men before, and go "I like guys now, too."

I wish more people understood this. It would really cut into the insecurity that drives some of the hate/bigotry/discrimination/etc.

[IceCap]

It's a hard idea for me to wrap my head around honestly, because it seems so stupid. If you've never felt even the slightest bit of attraction to the same sex then it's not something that will suddenly happen to you. Just like guys who have been gay their whole lives won't wake up one day wanting to go to a wet t-shirt contest at a titty bar.

Yet at the same time I know there are people out there worried about "catching teh gay" and I can only conclude that, despite landing a man on the moon and breaking the sound barrier, we are still a very stupid, stupid species.

[infrared41]

Sure they do. And they deserve better than a political party that wants them to shut up and go away.

We all deserve better than what we're getting with our political parties.

#firmgraspoftheobvious

[IceCap]

Sure they do. And they deserve better than a political party that wants them to shut up and go away.

We all deserve better than what we're getting with our political parties.

That's a truthfact.

[DS729]

I'm Christian/Catholic and I look at it this way...it doesn't matter if it is a sin because our job is to build up and support. Our job isn't to judge, I believe that is God's job.

The problem is that neo-Christian radical leaders (Westboro Baptist, Hispanics, Bible Belt Southeast U.S., etc) tend to believe that God went all Joan-of-Arc on them, and told those leaders to harass, torture, humiliate and make it as painful as possible for homosexual people to live freely in this world, and to pass these insights of hate to their parishioners.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding to this. You know you're effectively, by throwing people(including me) under the bus like that, you're doing the exact thing you're condemning. Now, please respond, as you didn't in the Gear Grinder thread when I called you out before.

Personal experience with my friend's parents (friends were 1st-gen Latino-Americans while parents were true immigrants) would say otherwise. The way I see religion being preached by immigrants, especially in such a heavily-concentrated area such as Southern California, make me tend to believe that those parents are in-root with opposing any rights for gays because of the whole "marriage is between a man and woman and Jesus will hate you if you think otherwise" thing. At least 1st-gen Latinos and beyond are embracing gays and lean towards religious tolerance for all, but not necessarily their parents.

As for the Southeast, I don't know that much information on them, but they tend to hold on to more traditional religious identities than, say, someone from the west coast or New England.

Now the Westboro Baptists...

Exactly.

You're throwing a massive group of people under the bus with no real legitimate points to bring to the table. You're taking a complete shot in the dark on something you know hardly anything about. If you were to call out with some facts, that's one thing, but too stereotype with no prior knowledge really is starting to drive everyone crazy. Of course, I'm not speaking for the community, that's just my opinion.

I'm not even going to attempt to defend his generalization of Hispanics (although I think I sort-of understand what he's trying to get at), but the point about the Southeast is valid. Is everyone from the Southeast a bible-thumping fundie? No... but enough people sure are that it can be objectively stated that faith-based conservatism shapes the culture of the Southeast like no other region of America.

Here's an article written by an agnostic woman about her dating experiences in Nashville that helps illustrate my point. Mind you, Nashville is one of the more cosmopolitan places in the Southeast, and yet her lack of religiosity was apparently still a problem.

Well...yeah. You're correct illwauk, but that wasn't exactly the main point of my post (it may have seemed like it, it might have just been poor wording on my part). Are there right-wing, homophobic, nut-jobs that refuse to change in the Southeast? Yeah, there are, but not everyone is like that here, so he's basically stereotyping while also admitting he doesn't really know what he's talking about. If you're going to stereotype a group and throw everyone under the bus then at least have some supporting details and what-not. You can't just come out firing from the hip when you're throwing a whole bunch of people under the bus. You're bound to piss someone off and get called-out in front of the whole community. But dba just seems to be a whole mess of crazy, and that probably can't get through his skull either.

And there are several cities in the South that have adapted to 21st century culture, Charlotte, Richmond perhaps, and Southern Florida seems like a really southern part of New York sometimes, we're not all a bunch'a twisted, homophobes.

[-kj]

The thing about bisexuality is...well...you're attracted to both. You've said that you're attracted to women. Now if you would come out tomorrow and say "well I'm attracted to men" I'd say you're bi. Not only would I say you're bi I'd say you've always been bi. You don't just wake up one day, never having been attracted to men before, and go "I like guys now, too."

I wish more people understood this. It would really cut into the insecurity that drives some of the hate/bigotry/discrimination/etc.

But how do you explain this?

(Figured we could use some humor around here.)

[Gothamite]

Sure they do. And they deserve better than a political party that wants them to shut up and go away.

We all deserve better than what we're getting with our political parties.

#firmgraspoftheobvious

First of all, we need a second political party. At the moment, we have one party (capable of both good and ill) interested in governance, and one loose collection of grievances and nihilism that leverages racial resentment and bigotry to keep whatever hold on power it can manage.

#formerrepublican

[Kevin W.]

We have two sides of the same coin bitching at each other in Congress. Nothing more.

[Xist2inspire]

The thing about bisexuality is...well...you're attracted to both. You've said that you're attracted to women. Now if you would come out tomorrow and say "well I'm attracted to men" I'd say you're bi. Not only would I say you're bi I'd say you've always been bi. You don't just wake up one day, never having been attracted to men before, and go "I like guys now, too."

ah well, agree to disagree, I suppose.

I'm not willing to play the "we can all agree to disagree " game. Not when the idea that homosexuality is a choice is often used to justify outright discrimination.

It's a foolish statement to make, and it doesn't deserve anyone's "tolerance." Things that are just wrong aren't worthy of tolerance.

On your first statement, thank you for your response. I'd then say it was still my choice to act and follow through upon my true nature, but to each his own.

On your second statement...well, that kind of goes back to what I was getting at earlier. I did not mean "agree to disagree" in any condescending manner. I did not use it as an excuse for hatred or discrimination. My opinion of you as a fine poster on this forum, which is all I have to go by, has not changed, and will not change, based on your sexual orientation. If anything, I put "agree to disagree" as an apology for any unintentional offense my comments and viewpoints may have caused. Yet you skipped all of that and went straight for the "racial discrimination" and "foolish statement" points. Yes, there are many people who use the "homosexuality is a choice" train of thought as a shield for their bigotry. But I do not, and so I fail to see how an honest attempt to understand both your and others' situation and mindset is not worthy of even making an attempt to discuss it without throwing things like that in there. Very few positive things have been achieved by simply saying "that's wrong, and you're foolish for even thinking that," and leaving things as-is.

It's things like this that have always put me off and made me back away from legitimately trying to understand the opposing viewpoint in certain situations. What you did (whether intentional or unintentional) was little different from my parents automatically assuming that nearly every negative thing done to them or us by a white person is evidence of some hidden racism, and pounding into my head that I can only trust white people so much, as people will almost always stick with those who look like them in times of crisis (ignoring the fact that my best friend is white). And even when I tried to point out that thinking like that all the time really doesn't do much good, they shot me down, and basically gave me a "you'll learn" speech. They just told me that I can't trust my best friend, and they weren't even willing to help me understand why. While they (and you) have just cause to think and feel that way, there is no excuse for responding negatively to something without knowing the context first. It undermines positive conversation and hinders real progress.

As for Michael Sam, the subject of this thread, good for him. I may not fully agree with his lifestyle, but he's a darn good player from what I've seen. I sincerely hope he gets his fair shot in the NFL, and that as much positivity as possible comes from his decision to publicly come out.

Again, if anything I've said has legitimately offended someone, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. I'm just trying to make better sense of mine and others' viewpoints.

[Norva]

As for Michael Sam, the subject of this thread, good for him. I may not fully agree with his lifestyle, but he's a darn good player from what I've seen. I sincerely hope he gets his fair shot in the NFL, and that as much positivity as possible comes from his decision to publicly come out.

Can someone explain to me what exactly a "gay lifestyle" even is? They have a partner of the same sex, beyond that nothing about their lifestyle is any different than a straight person. They go to work, eat dinner, do their laundry etc.

There is no special gay lifestyle.

[IceCap]

As for Michael Sam, the subject of this thread, good for him. I may not fully agree with his lifestyle, but he's a darn good player from what I've seen. I sincerely hope he gets his fair shot in the NFL, and that as much positivity as possible comes from his decision to publicly come out.

Can someone explain to me what exactly a "gay lifestyle" even is? They have a partner of the same sex, beyond that nothing about their lifestyle is any different than a straight person. They go to work, eat dinner, do their laundry etc.

There is no special gay lifestyle.

There really isn't. Michael Sam will live the "NFL lifestyle."

[Gothamite]

Yeah, the "NFL lifestyle" is the only one he'll be living. The mythical "gay lifestyle" has nothing to do with it.

We have two sides of the same coin bitching at each other in Congress. Nothing more.

Not even close, I'm afraid. Unless by "two sides" you mean that we have one party interested in governing and one only interested in making sure nothing gets done.

[IceCap]

On your first statement, thank you for your response. I'd then say it was still my choice to act and follow through upon my true nature, but to each his own.

First of all, you're welcome. Secondly, true, but it's up to the individual. Someone shouldn't have to face discrimination for being who they are.

On your second statement...well, that kind of goes back to what I was getting at earlier. I did not mean "agree to disagree" in any condescending manner. I did not use it as an excuse for hatred or discrimination. My opinion of you as a fine poster on this forum, which is all I have to go by, has not changed, and will not change, based on your sexual orientation.

That's very much appreciated. Thank you.

If anything, I put "agree to disagree" as an apology for any unintentional offense my comments and viewpoints may have caused. Yet you skipped all of that and went straight for the "racial discrimination" and "foolish statement" points. Yes, there are many people who use the "homosexuality is a choice" train of thought as a shield for their bigotry. But I do not, and so I fail to see how an honest attempt to understand both your and others' situation and mindset is not worthy of even making an attempt to discuss it without throwing things like that in there. Very few positive things have been achieved by simply saying "that's wrong, and you're foolish for even thinking that," and leaving things as-is.

I understand that, but there are some ideas we've collectively jettisoned because they're simply wrong. No one gives the flat earth or hollow earth theories a fair hearing anymore. No one's teaching alchemy at the university level or giving geocentricism a fair hearing in astronomy classes. We say to people who believe in these ideas "that's wrong, and you're foolish for even thinking that." We just need to get to the spot where we can say that about the notion that someone can just choose to be gay.

While they (and you) have just cause to think and feel that way, there is no excuse for responding negatively to something without knowing the context first. It undermines positive conversation and hinders real progress.

nuordr, in his first post in this thread, said...

Why? Why does anyone need to come out and say they are gay? I don't need to know your gay.

I'm sorry, but there's no context that doesn't make that hurtful and closed minded. I do not understand how there's positive discussion to be had when one person is saying garbage like this. Again, I go back to my earlier analogy. It's like telling a black man he has to be civil in a conversation with a Klansman.

[Kevin W.]

If you think that the Democrats aren't controlled by the corporations as much as the Republicans are, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. None of them want to help you. Nobody in Congress cares about you. They care about their wallets and their rich supporters.

[Cosmic]

I believe like God that no sin is greater than any other.

Does God really believe that? If so, He and I need to sit down and have a talk.

"Tolerance" doesn't mean all opinions are equal. Never has. We don't have to be "tolerant" towards Flat Earthers when writing geography textbooks.

You use that name like it's a real thing... tell me it's not a real thing! Tell me!

In-post edit: Holy #$(& some people really believe the Earth is flat. It's amazing how some humans are sending robots to Mars while others still believe the Earth is a disc.

[Gothamite]

I still think Flat Earthers can't possibly be serious, that it's all some elaborate performance art. Then again, I feel that way about the anti-gay movement sometimes. They can't possibly mean the things they say, it has to be some bizarre and cruel practical joke.

If you think that the Democrats aren't controlled by the corporations as much as the Republicans are, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. None of them want to help you. Nobody in Congress cares about you. They care about their wallets and their rich supporters.

That's not what I said.

Democrats might have corporate masters, but they occasionally do good as well. Even if by accident.

But my old Republican Party has been replaced by a coalition of bigotry and resentment masquerading as a political party, interested only in doing as little as possible and not caring if they burn the country down so long as the other side can't claim a victory. You can't begin to compare the two.

[rams80]

I believe like God that no sin is greater than any other.

Does God really believe that? If so, He and I need to sit down and have a talk.

I lied to my parents about going on that 12 county murder spree. Those sins have equal weight, right?