Mizzou's Michael Sam comes out

[Needschat]

And frankly, I think the "religion" excuse is just that (an excuse) 90% of the time. A lame excuse used by people that don't want to truly address their own fears and insecurities (and hatred, which I feel is rooted in the aforementioned fears and insecurities).

Exactly. We all know Rob Ford, the coked up alcoholic mayor of Toronto, right? Well he recently outed himself as a homophobe. Toronto is, along with many other cities across Canada, raising the rainbow flag at city hall as a sign of protest against Russia's recent string of homophobic legislation. Rob Ford and his brother Doug (who is a city councilman) both tried to have the flag removed, to no avail. I'm sure, if really pressed on the issue, both would inevitably fall back to the "it's against our Christian upbringing" excuse. Well does Rob Ford strike you as the religious type? He's a homophobe because he finds homosexuality gross. That's the root of it, really. It's a personal problem his small mind has to overcome. Not one imposed on him by faith, because I doubt the man's darkened a church's doorstep in 20 years.

And that's how many male homophobes are: They find male homosexual sex gross. They don't realize that some gay men find straight and lesbian sex gross, too. Do you think they obsess about it, like Ford or Phil Robertson, or any tv evangelical "preacher" do? No.

[-kj]

For true, I have no idea* what y'all do with the lady parts. But you seem to enjoy yourselves, so more power to ya.

[*= well, ok, I know how hetero sex works... it's just... ewwww...]

[FiddySicks]

Is it dramatic to point out what someone else said?

Again, let me be Christian voice of reason. I'm against bigotry, period. My religion, at its root, is against bigotry. My God, that everyone tries so damned hard to paint as evil, is loving and fully 100% against bigotry.

That road goes two ways, though. To preach tolerance while hoping for others to die is, inherently, a bigoted mindset. What I'm striving to do is keep it in perspective. It's wrong either way, and no matter who it's coming from.

I like you vicfurth, partially because you often are one of the reasonable Christian voices here. Your faith deserves better then to be represented by the likes of nuordr.

That being said...no. Tolerance is often a two way street, but not always. Again, would you expect a black man to respect the opinions of a Klansman? I should hope not. So why should I, or any other member of the LGBT community, respect what a bigot like nuordr has to say about us?

I too believe in G-d, the same G-d you do. And I believe that he put all of us here to co-exist and work to make the world a better place. That doesn't happen if we give hateful people like nuordr and OldRamsFan their time in the sun. Like the Klan, like the Nazi Party, like countless groups before them dedicated to hate and bigotry, they need to be shoved aside and their opinions recognized as the hurtful garbage they are.

I understand where you're coming from. My point is that saying a Christian should die is as bad as if I said "I hate you" because someone is gay. Both statements are rooted in hating the other, valid reasons or not.

We can all agree to disagree and still like each other at the end of the day. That was my point in saying tolerance is two-way.

Yeah but the thing religious conservatives don't seem to realize is just how critical their "tolerance" is to the every day lives of homosexuals. If a gay person doesn't have much tolerance for you, what does it really matter? I bet it's not going to effect how you live your life. If religious conservatives don't have tolerance for homosexuals, they can really :censored: up how they live their lives in accordance to the law.

As much as you'd like to believe it, tolerance isn't a "two way street", because homosexuals aren't going out in droves to vote against granting straight people basic civil rights.

[JackieMoon]

Good for him. It's definitely not my cup of tea, but if that's what a person wants to do, then whatever. There are far worse problems going on around the world.

[nuordr]

I sincerely hope that people like Nuodr end up having gay children, or find out that whoever they love most in the world is gay, and find out how silly their beliefs are. Those "beliefs" are built on FEAR and nothing else.

Frankly Nuodr, this world would be a better place for everyone if you and those who share your beliefs were not a part of it. You have no idea how you and people like you hurt and divide people, and quite frankly I find a little pity in side me for you, since you live in so much fear. I think it's great that because of people like Michael Sam and others, we're getting to a point where within a few generations, people who's views are like yours will have mostly died off, and your kids may be a little more enlightened than their parents and grandparents.

You do your entire religion a disservice when you post thigns like you do here, because there are plenty of christians who don't have as much fear and hate in them, but unfortunately people like you cast a negative light on everyone. I live in a very diverse part of the city, and do a ton of volunteer work with inner-city high school kids. I see the challenges that they face every day, most of which people like you could never fathom. It's a shame that because of people like you, in addition to dealing with the things that they deal with, 1 in 10 of them also feels the need to hide who they are because of the backlash they'll get from their "christian brothers".

It's sad that none of this message board debating matters, nothing that is shown on the news matters, no argument that any reasonable person can put forward will matter, and the only way to change opinions like yours is to wait for you and your kind to die off.

First off, you don't know my past, you don't know my heart and you definitely don't know my life. I have NEVER said I hate the LGBT people! I have never said I am afraid of these people! I have never once said they were all going to hell because I am not their judge! I have never wished someone or a group of like-minded people to die and that was really harsh on your behalf, but that is fine, as you chose not to accept what I believe and that is your opinion. But I would like to encourage you to not get me mixed up with Westboro Baptist Church nutjobs as they hate everyone and that is definitely not me.

We all believe in different things and I respect that about people. In my past I once did a presentation in my freshman year of college supporting gay marriage as one of my older cousins had been with his partners for over 20 years and I felt sorry for him. I was a diehard left-winger at the time and I was all about pro-choice, no to the death penatly, save the environment and all that. Heck, I have seen things that you could only imagine and I done things that I am completely ashamed of, but like I said in my first sentence, you don't know me! Just like I do not know you!

I do not hate anyone! I do my best to LOVE my neighbors as that is one of the greatest commandments. I am not perfect! I am a sinner that constantly asks for forgiveness daily. I have repented of my sins and I am just thankful to believe in a higher power that forgives me for my wrongdoeings. As far as my step-brother, he made his choice and that was his decision, no one pressured him into being gay (Before I get ridculed, I believe some people are born gay and some choose to be gay) Just like no one forced me to do stupid things as a young adult. We all have choices to make in life and it is up to each individual person to make their own choice. For me, the older I have become the more conservative I have became. I am a shell of my old self and I have changed my views on life and politics and I believe that is because I have became a better Christian man. Like I said earlier, I am not perfect, I try to love my neighbor and I miss the mark everyday.

[OnWis97]

I sincerely hope that people like Nuodr end up having gay children, or find out that whoever they love most in the world is gay, and find out how silly their beliefs are. Those "beliefs" are built on FEAR and nothing else.

Frankly Nuodr, this world would be a better place for everyone if you and those who share your beliefs were not a part of it. You have no idea how you and people like you hurt and divide people, and quite frankly I find a little pity in side me for you, since you live in so much fear. I think it's great that because of people like Michael Sam and others, we're getting to a point where within a few generations, people who's views are like yours will have mostly died off, and your kids may be a little more enlightened than their parents and grandparents.

You do your entire religion a disservice when you post thigns like you do here, because there are plenty of christians who don't have as much fear and hate in them, but unfortunately people like you cast a negative light on everyone. I live in a very diverse part of the city, and do a ton of volunteer work with inner-city high school kids. I see the challenges that they face every day, most of which people like you could never fathom. It's a shame that because of people like you, in addition to dealing with the things that they deal with, 1 in 10 of them also feels the need to hide who they are because of the backlash they'll get from their "christian brothers".

It's sad that none of this message board debating matters, nothing that is shown on the news matters, no argument that any reasonable person can put forward will matter, and the only way to change opinions like yours is to wait for you and your kind to die off.

First off, you don't know my past, you don't know my heart and you definitely don't know my life. I have NEVER said I hate the LGBT people! I have never said I am afraid of these people! I have never once said they were all going to hell because I am not their judge! I have never wished someone or a group of like-minded people to die and that was really harsh on your behalf, but that is fine, as you chose not to accept what I believe and that is your opinion. But I would like to encourage you to not get me mixed up with Westboro Baptist Church nutjobs as they hate everyone and that is definitely not me.

We all believe in different things and I respect that about people. In my past I once did a presentation in my freshman year of college supporting gay marriage as one of my older cousins had been with his partners for over 20 years and I felt sorry for him. I was a diehard left-winger at the time and I was all about pro-choice, no to the death penatly, save the environment and all that. Heck, I have seen things that you could only imagine and I done things that I am completely ashamed of, but like I said in my first sentence, you don't know me! Just like I do not know you!

I do not hate anyone! I do my best to LOVE my neighbors as that is one of the greatest commandments. I am not perfect! I am a sinner that constantly asks for forgiveness daily. I have repented of my sins and I am just thankful to believe in a higher power that forgives me for my wrongdoeings. As far as my step-brother, he made his choice and that was his decision, no one pressured him into being gay. Just like no one forced me to do stupid things as a young adult. We all have choices to make in life and it is up to each individual person to make their own choice. For me, the older I have become the more conservative I have became. I am a shell of my old self and I have changed my views on life and politics and I believe that is because I have became a better Christian man. Like I said earlier, I am not perfect, I try to love my neighbor and I miss the mark everyday.

I don't want to get in the middle of what BBVT said and the reactions. It was insensitive but I don't want it to derail the thread and be used to deflect.

It's the bold that concerns me. What choice did he make? To be attracted to men? Not that it should matter (but it's important with the borderline haters), but I don't think he did. I guess he chose to act on those feelings. To not pretend to be straight; to not bring some poor woman into a loveless relationship in the name of appearances or to cherry-pick what part of the bible he adheres that strictly to.

And I will totally admit that it's a struggle I have; how to react to religious people that say "I don't hate anyone but that's a sin." You can forgive someone who stole a car five years ago and has straightened their life out, but you step brother will never stop being gay. It's who he is. I guess it's up to you to say you hate what he does but not who he is. It strikes me as a tough tightrope to walk and quite conducive to bigotry/discrimination/whatever. If that makes me intolerant, so be it. But I am not anti-Christian. I am anti-homophobe.

[nuordr]

I sincerely hope that people like Nuodr end up having gay children, or find out that whoever they love most in the world is gay, and find out how silly their beliefs are. Those "beliefs" are built on FEAR and nothing else.

Frankly Nuodr, this world would be a better place for everyone if you and those who share your beliefs were not a part of it. You have no idea how you and people like you hurt and divide people, and quite frankly I find a little pity in side me for you, since you live in so much fear. I think it's great that because of people like Michael Sam and others, we're getting to a point where within a few generations, people who's views are like yours will have mostly died off, and your kids may be a little more enlightened than their parents and grandparents.

You do your entire religion a disservice when you post thigns like you do here, because there are plenty of christians who don't have as much fear and hate in them, but unfortunately people like you cast a negative light on everyone. I live in a very diverse part of the city, and do a ton of volunteer work with inner-city high school kids. I see the challenges that they face every day, most of which people like you could never fathom. It's a shame that because of people like you, in addition to dealing with the things that they deal with, 1 in 10 of them also feels the need to hide who they are because of the backlash they'll get from their "christian brothers".

It's sad that none of this message board debating matters, nothing that is shown on the news matters, no argument that any reasonable person can put forward will matter, and the only way to change opinions like yours is to wait for you and your kind to die off.

First off, you don't know my past, you don't know my heart and you definitely don't know my life. I have NEVER said I hate the LGBT people! I have never said I am afraid of these people! I have never once said they were all going to hell because I am not their judge! I have never wished someone or a group of like-minded people to die and that was really harsh on your behalf, but that is fine, as you chose not to accept what I believe and that is your opinion. But I would like to encourage you to not get me mixed up with Westboro Baptist Church nutjobs as they hate everyone and that is definitely not me.

We all believe in different things and I respect that about people. In my past I once did a presentation in my freshman year of college supporting gay marriage as one of my older cousins had been with his partners for over 20 years and I felt sorry for him. I was a diehard left-winger at the time and I was all about pro-choice, no to the death penatly, save the environment and all that. Heck, I have seen things that you could only imagine and I done things that I am completely ashamed of, but like I said in my first sentence, you don't know me! Just like I do not know you!

I do not hate anyone! I do my best to LOVE my neighbors as that is one of the greatest commandments. I am not perfect! I am a sinner that constantly asks for forgiveness daily. I have repented of my sins and I am just thankful to believe in a higher power that forgives me for my wrongdoeings. As far as my step-brother, he made his choice and that was his decision, no one pressured him into being gay. Just like no one forced me to do stupid things as a young adult. (Before I get ridculed, I believe some people are born gay and some choose to be gay) We all have choices to make in life and it is up to each individual person to make their own choice. For me, the older I have become the more conservative I have became. I am a shell of my old self and I have changed my views on life and politics and I believe that is because I have became a better Christian man. Like I said earlier, I am not perfect, I try to love my neighbor and I miss the mark everyday.

I don't want to get in the middle of what BBVT said and the reactions. It was insensitive but I don't want it to derail the thread and be used to deflect.

It's the bold that concerns me. What choice did he make? To be attracted to men? Not that it should matter (but it's important with the borderline haters), but I don't think he did. I guess he chose to act on those feelings. To not pretend to be straight; to not bring some poor woman into a loveless relationship in the name of appearances or to cherry-pick what part of the bible he adheres that strictly to.

And I will totally admit that it's a struggle I have; how to react to religious people that say "I don't hate anyone but that's a sin." You can forgive someone who stole a car five years ago and has straightened their life out, but you step brother will never stop being gay. It's who he is. I guess it's up to you to say you hate what he does but not who he is. It strikes me as a tough tightrope to walk and quite conducive to bigotry/discrimination/whatever. If that makes me intolerant, so be it. But I am not anti-Christian. I am anti-homophobe.

I inserted my edited sentence because I knew people were gonna jump on that sentence. I disagree with the bolded blue because I have met people that once were gay and they are not now. My older step-sister from my mother's second marriage left her husband for another woman and that relationship lasted for 2 years and that was in 1992. Well, 22 years later, she has been married to another man for 19 years and could not be more happy. People can always change!

[BBTV]

I feel even stronger about my post after reading your follow-ups.

You are so clueless that it's scary. [edited]

[infrared41]

For true, I have no idea* what y'all do with the lady parts. But you seem to enjoy yourselves, so more power to ya.

[*= well, ok, I know how hetero sex works... it's just... ewwww...]

You and 90% of the males on these here boards.

[BBTV]

For true, I have no idea* what y'all do with the lady parts. But you seem to enjoy yourselves, so more power to ya.

[*= well, ok, I know how hetero sex works... it's just... ewwww...]

You and 90% of the males on these here boards.

Or at least the ones that were addicted to the babe of the week thread.

[infrared41]

For true, I have no idea* what y'all do with the lady parts. But you seem to enjoy yourselves, so more power to ya.

[*= well, ok, I know how hetero sex works... it's just... ewwww...]

You and 90% of the males on these here boards.

Or at least the ones that were addicted to the babe of the week thread.

Optimist. I was being generous with 90%.

[Gothamite]

People can always change!

No, they really can't. Ask Exodus International or Evergreen International.

Bisexuals can pair up with a partner of the opposite sex, but that doesn't stop them being attracted to their own. And gay people don't even have that option. Even the ones who wish it were so.

The "you can change" bit is, unfortunately, an odious lie perpetuated by desperate groups who need it to be true to make their own bigotry palatable. Please don't fall for it.

[illwauk]

No you're not. It's pretty obvious that you already assumed I was against it, when I have never said I was. What you asked was if my views had changed, which insinuated that you believed I was against it beforehand. So why am I defensive? Because you're creating a false, negative subtext of my comments based on my views that you clearly thought you knew but actually didn't. When Gothamite commented on the subject of subtext, he didn't assume my intent like you did. He spoke objectively.

Did you not say in another thread that you thought the legal recognition of same-sex partnerships should be limited to civil unions? That was almost three years ago already, IIRC, so I might be mistaking you for someone else. But either way, there's a very easy way for you to debunk any ill presumption you think I might be making, and skirting around it the way you have is making you look even more suspect.

[Braden]

People can always change!

No, they really can't. Ask Exodus International or Evergreen International

Bisexuals can pair up with a partner of the opposite sex, but that doesn't stop them being attracted to their own. And gay people don't even have that option.

The "you can change" bit is, unfortunately, an odious lie perpetuated by desperate groups who need it to be true to make their own bigotry palatable. Please don't fall for it.

We're all in a room talking.

All of a sudden, a hot girl and a hot guy walk in the room at the same time.

You guys would be awkwardly staring at the girl.

I would be awkwardly staring at the guy.

We can't change that.

That's just how we're wired.

Deal with it.

[Gothamite]

The fact that there remains such a great deal of misinformation about gay people is precisely why it's good for public figures to come out.

Hiding in the closet only feeds misperceptions and misunderstandings. We can best dispel those through visibility.

[Chicageaux]

People can always change!

Nuorder, you have to realize where people might find that statement offensive and take issue with it. The fact is, people can't change. In that sense are you saying that tomorrow you might wake up and be homosexual? The fact is it's part of who they are just like you're heterosexual. They're no different from you and me except they look at different porn . Unfortunately, there's people in society who don't understand that and they make people ashamed for not "changing," but thankfully it's changing.

As Gothamite just pointed out and by some of the comments from the other side here, there is still a disconnect and people don't understand. Hell, I'm understanding but as understanding and accepting as I am, I will never understand what a gay person has gone through and I don't want to act I'm in their shoes. But the more accepting we are, the easier it becomes for them and that's the most important thing.People can always change!

[illwauk]

I feel even stronger about my post after reading your follow-ups.

You are so clueless that it's scary. [edited]

I agree.

Say what you will, but LGBT people are subjected to violence on a regular basis because of the rehtoric spewed by people like Nuordr. You don't have to actively condone abuse to contribute to an abusive culture, which is what a lot of homophobes don't seem to grasp. Why should the lives and humanity of homophobes be respected when they can't extend that same respect to the LGBT community?

[McCall]

No you're not. It's pretty obvious that you already assumed I was against it, when I have never said I was. What you asked was if my views had changed, which insinuated that you believed I was against it beforehand. So why am I defensive? Because you're creating a false, negative subtext of my comments based on my views that you clearly thought you knew but actually didn't. When Gothamite commented on the subject of subtext, he didn't assume my intent like you did. He spoke objectively.

Did you not say in another thread that you thought the legal recognition of same-sex partnerships should be limited to civil unions? That was almost three years ago already, IIRC, so I might be mistaking you for someone else. But either way, there's a very easy way for you to debunk any ill presumption you think I might be making, and skirting around it the way you have is making you look even more suspect.

What am I skirting around? You said I was against homosexuality and that my comments had subtext. I stated I was not against it and that comments did not have any subtext and was basically to show that my path of support I choose to take is to treat them no differently, in any way, from any heterosexual person. The portion of my original comment you focused on was that I don't root for his love life because as a football player, that is not where my interest in him lies, but rather in his play, which I loved watching and rooting for while at Mizzou and will continue to do so in the NFL wherever he lands as I like to cheer on Mizzou alumns even if I don't like their teams. His love life is his private life and not my business. His coming out publicly is huge due to it being the first occasion of this situation, a potential active openly gay player. But when it comes down to it, I have made the choice to treat everyone in the way everyone hopes it'll be someday, like this is nothing, like he's just another football player I'm a fan of. The only difference be tween him and other football players I root for is that he's attracted to men instead of women. Nothing more, nothing less.

To you, it seems that my beliefs aren't "good enough" for you and therefore it's simply negative subtext to your preconceived belief of my views that were false and now you're trying to pin it on me to prove wrong when I have been repeatedly saying that I have no negative beliefs of homosexuals. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

[Sport]

The fact that there remains such a great deal of misinformation about gay people is precisely why it's good for public figures to come out.

Hiding in the closet only feeds misperceptions and misunderstandings. We can best dispel those through visibility.

Well put.

People can always change!

No, they really can't. Ask Exodus International or Evergreen International

Bisexuals can pair up with a partner of the opposite sex, but that doesn't stop them being attracted to their own. And gay people don't even have that option.

The "you can change" bit is, unfortunately, an odious lie perpetuated by desperate groups who need it to be true to make their own bigotry palatable. Please don't fall for it.

We're all in a room talking.

All of a sudden, a hot girl and a hot guy walk in the room at the same time.

You guys would be awkwardly staring at the girl.

I would be awkwardly staring at the guy.

We can't change that.

That's just how we're wired.

Deal with it.

Every gay person I know has said something to this effect. At this point anyone who believes that you choose your sexuality is being willfully obtuse.

To those saying "well why do they have to make such a big deal about it?" See Goth's post above.

"Why does he HAVE to come out?"

Truth be told, I had to come out as a straight guy. When I was younger I think my parents had their thoughts just because I was a quiet, thoughtful, fit, good looking kid who didn't have a lot of friends and didn't have a girlfriend. I never had a girlfriend in high school nor did I go to any of the school dances until my senior prom and that was with a friend. The actual reason for that was I was terrified of girls in high school and all the girls I went to high school with were unfairly hot. It was ridiculously intimidating at that age and I was incredibly awkward to begin with. I still am in a lot of ways.

I started dating a girl freshman year of college so when I told my parents about her it was a coming out of sorts, it was just much easier than the alternative because being straight is more socially accepted.

They would've been the best parents of a gay son in the world too, but unfortunately they're wasted on me and my sister.

[Gothamite]

NM - quote was fixed.