Art and or Vandalism

[-kj]

This is an interesting piece, dealing with the gray area between "street art" and "vandalism".

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Myself? This is all vandalism. If you aren't invited to alter someone else's property, you're vandalizing it. It feels that many of the street artists feel an entitlement that everything is their canvas to do with as they wish, regardless of who actually owns what.

[IceCap]

Yeah, I have to agree. If the person who owns the property tells you it's ok, then have at it. If you don't have that permission then it's vandalism, regardless of how much work and and skill went into it.

[OMMF]

This is an interesting piece, dealing with the gray area between "street art" and "vandalism".

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Myself? This is all vandalism. If you aren't invited to alter someone else's property, you're vandalizing it. It feels that many of the street artists feel an entitlement that everything is their canvas to do with as they wish, regardless of who actually owns what.

I think when it comes to sidewalk art, I'm down with it as long as it's with a non-permanent medium. Walls and such certainly need the permission of the property owner.

[oldschoolvikings]

Over the years I've had quite a few students who did this sort of after hours work. In Detroit the "code" was pretty straight forward. If it was public property (bridges, overpasses, etc.) or abandoned property (in Detroit, not hard to find) it was fair game. If you tagged private property, you'd quickly find yourself an outlaw among outlaws.

As for whether its art or vandalism, that's easy... ask a cop. Its definitely vandalism. But that doesn't mean it can't also be art. So my answer is, sometimes its both.

[Jezus_Ghoti]

Art and vandalism are not mutually exclusive.

[GeauxColonels]

But that doesn't mean it can't also be art. So my answer is, sometimes its both.

Exactly. Just because it's vandalism doesn't mean that it can't also be art. I've seen some beautiful vandalism. Some very high quality stuff.

[Gothamite]

True, but I'd say that it's vandalism that also happens to be art, not the other way around.

In Detroit the "code" was pretty straight forward. If it was public property (bridges, overpasses, etc.) or abandoned property (in Detroit, not hard to find) it was fair game. If you tagged private property, you'd quickly find yourself an outlaw among outlaws.

Public property deserves every bit the respect that private property does. More, even.

[El Scorcho]

If whoever owns or looks after the property doesn't want it there, graffiti is always vandalism.

That's not to say graffiti artists can't do incredible things.

[pcgd]

I'm impressed by what some graffiti artists do, and I think it can add to the culture and landscape of a urban neighborhood. However that doesn't mean it's not illegal and property rights of private and public spaces must be respected. I have very mixed feelings on the early work on Banksy or Shepard Fairy (and non famous artists) because some of the work they did was incredible, but it was still vandalism and wrong to me.

Tagging is stupid in every form however. I can't think of any value it adds. It's equivalent to pissing everywhere to mark your territory.

[MEANS]

Bomb the city

[BrandMooreArt]

very good topic Mockba

the stencil M in my logo is a nod to street art, so i probably have a biased opinion. if you're doing work on property that doesn't belong to you, yes it's vandalism. you're taking a risk in doing it. you dont have the legal right to do it. . . that said, i don't have any issues with doing it. I'm a huge fans of Banksy's and i think he has said it better than i can . . .

“Imagine a city where graffiti wasn't illegal, a city where everybody could draw whatever they liked. Where every street was awash with a million colours and little phrases. Where standing at a bus stop was never boring. A city that felt like a party where everyone was invited, not just the estate agents and barons of big business. Imagine a city like that and stop leaning against the wall - it's wet.” - Banksy

"Graffiti is one of the few tools you have if you have almost nothing. And even if you don't come up with a picture to cure world poverty you can make someone smile while they're having a piss." - Banksy

“The greatest crimes in the world are not committed by people breaking the rules but by people following the rules. It's people who follow orders that drop bombs and massacre villages.” - Banksy

i also agree 100% with PCGD, if you're just writing your stupid tag on something you aren't contributing anything.

[MEANS]

So You Want to Write on Walls (from ESPO's book-the art of getting over)

I found the following transcript at The Graffiti Writers Local 132 Union Hall. At first, it`s size and format made me think it was a religious tract. Upon closer inspection I realized it`s purpose was to instruct on another level. I submit it to you without any edits, so read carefully, you saps.

There are a few things you must do before in order to make your presence a welcome one. First; know the history. Second; Know the rules of the game. Third; Work hard at being good, or ar least competent. Fourth; Snitches, and :censored: talkers get stitches and need walkers. Fifth; You`re good, but you`re not that good. Keep your fat head to a reasonable swell and get back to work. These are the five fingers of your left hand. Study them well. Soon, you`ll be able to get a grip on your self esteem and we`ll all be better for it.

FIRST: HISTORY

Cavemen did it, so did Romans and Egyptians. The Incas did it, so did Greeks and Native Americans. There was graffiti on the New York subway a year after it was built. There`s graffiti on the moon. If graffiti is vandalism, and vandalism is graffiti, then man has left his mark with garbage at the farthest reaches of the universe. So you with your pathetic desire to be remembered are in good company. I could spend a ream of paper telling you about the development of modern graffiti, but we`ve got other ground to cover. It`s important that you know it, so ask your local expert (or DJ Deadly Budda in Pittsburg if you don`t have one) and he`ll tell you his version.

SECOND: THE RULES

1 You suck until further notice

2 It`s gonna take a long time before we even acknowledge your existence, even longer before we can bear to look at that foul scribble you call your name. To speed the process of acceptance you can (A) Choose a clever name that defies the norm of simpleminded slang. An example of a good name is "ARGUE." It looks good when written, sounds cool when spoken, and conveys a combative attitude. On the other hand, "ENEMA" (actual name) looks, sounds, and conveys a :censored:ty attitude. BE CHOOSY. ( Use paint, gain knowledge of nozzles, be bold, learn a style of writing for every occassion, :censored: permission walls, write your name bigger everytime you go out, don`t use stickers, and resist the urge to write in dirt.

3 Jealousy is a disease for the weak.

4 Your heart is your greatest posession, don`t let it get taken from you.

5 Don`t write on houses of worship, people`s houses in general, other writers names and tombstones. Writing on memorial walls and cars is death.These are the five fingers of your right hand. Study them well. Give soul claps, firm handshakes, and throw smooth bolo punches.

THIRD: DEVELOPING STYLE

Although being a toy seems undesirable, you should enjoy it while you can. At this stage you can bite all you want with no remorse. All your elders will say is "Aw isn`t that sweet, kootchie kootchie koo." So steal that dope connection, rob that color scheme, and loot whole letter forms. Don`t worry about giving any credit, weÕll pat ourselves on the back and brag how weÕre influencing the next generation. However style isn`t a crutch or a schtick. It is understanding why the connection you bit flows, or why the color scheme you boosted bumps. Style is the process to an appealling end. Once you got it down to a science you can reinvent letterforms to suit yourself. This growth will amaze old and yound alike. Pretty soon someone will steal your secret sauce and the cycle will be renewed. If this happens to you, don`t bitch about getting your due. Graffiti is the language of the ignored. If your style is stolen, someone heard you speaking. You got what you wanted from the beginning, some attention, you big baby.

FOURTH: THE LAW

It must be noted that the vandal squad loves graffiti. Their job requires them to fiend for graff as much as you do. When you wreck enough walls, they`ll want to meet you. Just like jock swingers, they`ll recite every spot you hit, the difference being you`ll also hear the Miranda warning. To postpone this, solo as much as possible. Don`t write with anybody that wouldn`t fight for you. DonÕt be paranoid. If you avoid writing on pristine properties, youÕll stay in misdemeanor territory and you won`t divert the cop`s attention from catching and beating speeding motorists. (Consult local laws to be sure) Remember, if they didn`t see you do it, it is almost impossible for them to win a conviction without your own damning testimony. Shut up, Shut Up, SHUT UP! Giving a cop info on another writer will doom you to a life of ridicule, from cops and kids alike, with no parole.

FIFTH: EGO TRIPPIN'

There`s nothing wrong with knowing youÕre the :censored: as long as you are. But once you reach that conclusion you`re on the verge of falling off. Don`t look down, fathead, that swollen ego will trip you over the edge. T-Kid is writer who`s been creating dope murals for 20 years, and he keeps getting better. Your posing and fronting looks retarded next to the likes of him. Get back to work you tired slouch.

In conclusion, graffiti is free, impresses chicks, appears heroic to anybody who leads a dull life, will provide you with a million stories to tell your dull friends, is immortal, larger than life, and a sure cure to the inner city blues. So get going, fame awaits the fly among you - Mark Surface

[IceCap]

very good topic Mockba

the stencil M in my logo is a nod to street art, so i probably have a biased opinion. if you're doing work on property that doesn't belong to you, yes it's vandalism. you're taking a risk in doing it. you dont have the legal right to do it. . . that said, i don't have any issues with doing it. I'm a huge fans of Banksy's and i think he has said it better than i can

See, it's because it's vandalism that I have a problem with it. If you get permission from the property owner, great. If it's your own property, even better. Doing it without permission though? That's criminal. Regardless of how well it's done.

[Cosmic]

I'm surprised we actually have people on the side of the graffiti artists. Some of that stuff is awesomely beautiful, but it just doesn't belong unless the owner tells you to put it there. Even public property... public property doesn't belong to "you"; it belongs to everybody.

[IceCap]

“Imagine a city where graffiti wasn't illegal, a city where everybody could draw whatever they liked...

Oh, I can...

Now look, I'm sure this Bansky guy (first time I've heard of him) would say this isn't the same thing as graffiti that's legitimately art, and he's right. Thing is, he didn't say anything about making a distinction. He talked about a place where everybody could draw whatever they liked. His words. His exact words. And it is the height of naivety to assume that everyone would just use that freedom to create true art. You give everyone the right to spray paint whatever they want? The bigots of the world are going to abuse that freedom. If it means limited Bansky's freedom or making sure people can sleep soundly knowing it's illegal to desecrate the resting place of their loved ones I'm going to go with the latter.

...Where every street was awash with a million colours and little phrases. Where standing at a bus stop was never boring. A city that felt like a party where everyone was invited, not just the estate agents and barons of big business. Imagine a city like that and stop leaning against the wall - it's wet.”

He mentioned big business! Boo them, right? BOOOOOOOO!

I'll be generous and grant B-dog here the benefit of the doubt and assume that such a city would would be full of thoughtful, creative people who would never abuse the freedom to spray paint whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. Such a place would be interesting, it wouldn't be boring...for about a week. The thing about humanity is that we have the ability to adapt rather quickly. Sure, that mural painted by the bus stop would be awesome to look at, that is until you just got used to seeing it. After that it just becomes part of the background and you'll stop noticing it. Or is he implying that people would constantly be painting over stuff that's been there a while to keep things fresh? If that's the case I have a hard time believing an artist who spent months, maybe even over a year, creating a mural would be ok with someone else coming and covering it up with something else in a few weeks. You know, as much as this Bansky fellow likes to preach about freedom and creativity he seems to have a rather weak grasp on human nature.

Also, what's wrong with leaning on walls? That's how I spent most of my high school years!

"Graffiti is one of the few tools you have if you have almost nothing. And even if you don't come up with a picture to cure world poverty you can make someone smile while they're having a piss."

Oh, good. Making someone smile while they're having a piss would certainly be the height of my aspirations if I had "almost nothing."

“The greatest crimes in the world are not committed by people breaking the rules but by people following the rules. It's people who follow orders that drop bombs and massacre villages.”

I get it! If I find some kids spray painting some graffiti on the side of the school I work at and I discipline and report them I'm no better then soldiers who drop bombs on villages!

[Gothamite]

Yeah, I think Banksy is presuming a lot. It's the libertarian myth writ large; that everyone would create something amazing if only freed from social constraints/legal repercussions/societal programming. Just like companies wouldn't ever pollute water if government would just get off their backs with those intrusive regulations.

Sounds nice in theory, but in reality you'd end up with streets covered in layers upon layers of ugly, oppressive, meaningless tags. Surrounded by a polluted river.

[BrandMooreArt]

Cap you've really never even heard of Banksy? Good god, man. Okay first of all, peep game: http://www.pinterest.com/brandmooreart/banksy/

Secondly, you and Gothamite could not have staw manned this into a more negative direction. Like Means posted, there are some "rules" to the game and taking the phrase "anyone can draw anywhere" to Nazi symbols on gravestones is about as low as it gets. Im sure that wasnt the idea when Banksy was talking about walls.

Sao Paulo, Madrid, and Barcelona have come to accept the street art scene or at least loosen the reigns. It has become a big tourism boost to those cities. The last thing those cities are, are boring. These things dont take years to make or even months. Most of these guys work over a night. Shepard Fairey does his huge peices in less than a week with his team. And yes there is usually a short life for street art. Weather, power washers, other artist all take their turns on it. But if thats all boring to you then i cant help ya.

Id love it if someone had a real reaction to one of my pieces. If its a chuckle from a funny phrase written on a bathroom wall then cool. I dont see whats wrong here. Lower your expectations maybe? Its the small things . . .

The 3rd quote is about a way of thinking. I dont know how you came to that conclusion but good artist are certainly rule breakers of all sorts. It was meant to seperate street artist from criminals, not compare you, law biding citizen, to murderers. Honestly man, i think you, and Goth too, see the very worst in everything.

[Cosmic]

What? There's a difference between seeing the worst in everything and being a realist. The argument for "unlicensed street art" sounds like a stereotypical stoner conversation: "Why do we have to work, man? Have jobs? If everyone could just work when they wanted, everything would still get done!" No, it wouldn't. That's beside the fact that a lot of the stuff on that Pinterest page is just dumb, I'm-smarter-than-you crap. Self-promotion and ego tripping by damaging other people's property. "Banksy wasn't here"... genius! This kind of stuff can't stay chained up in the artist's mind; it needs to be released! A dishveled, old Abraham Lincoln pushing a shopping cart... all of a sudden, that boarded up house is a community treasure! Thank you, Mr. Street Artist! Do you really not get why people might not want "F*** THE POLICE" spray painted onto their house, the anarchy symbol, etc.?

Edit: And if "The greatest crimes in the world are not committed by people breaking the rules but by people following the rules. It's people who follow orders that drop bombs and massacre villages.” isn't a straw man, I don't know what is. Other people do worse things, so graffiti is OK!

[lancealot]

The government is planing on painting over a mural on a wall of a local pub/club and I know that both the owner and some of the managers (and others who work there) are against it being painted over and have signed the petition (http://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/adelaide-city-council-save-the-mural-at-the-dog-duck?share_id=UeZyCVjyee&utm_campaign=share_button_mobile&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_Petition) what do you guys think.of the situation

[BBTV]

If I like it it's art, otherwise it's vandalism.