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Everything posted by 9erssteve

  1. Ok I've been living under a rock for a while now... actually I've got 7 week old son so the internet has become a rare treat for me, but am I the only one who thinks what the 9ers did with their new uni's is in fact one of the most remarkably innovative things a uniform manufacturer has ever done? I mean they just flipped the bird at the folk in china who've been ripping them off and making those horrendous black "fashion" football jerseys for years by ripping them off right back and making the jersey OFFICIAL! It's flip-copyright theft #Genius! Obviously I'm being sarcastic, the jerseys are pretty much an abomination, but the second I saw them they reminded me of those nasty fake jerseys and that was honestly the only reason I could come up with for them doing it, because to claim it was a design decision is an affront to decisions.
  2. GFB nailed it with the feedback and I cant help feeling you've missed a trick here. The last hand drawn sketch you posted was by far the best incarnation of the logo. There was subtle variation in the scales that make up the shell and it gave the logo character, when you went to vector you just divided up the shell with pen tool and suddenly all that character and individuality was gone, leaving the logo a little soulless in comparison to the sketch. Don't get me wrong what you're left with is a good logo, but I cant help feeling it could have been so much better if you'd been true to your drawing at the vector stage. 9erssteve
  3. Being hard on yourself when it comes to getting results is great. I'm never going to rip on someone who's trying to improve, and if I can across that way I'm sorry. With regards the logo, I think it's ok. It's not a show stopper but it's certainly a lot better than some I've seen both here and on other logo forums so dont put yourself down. You're right finding a photo of a dolphin shaped as a C is gonna be pretty tough to find but a google search for "dolphin doing a somersault" turn up this little gem which could be of use if you dont have it already... https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2043/2330581005_8022207650_z.jpg?zz=1 I think it's great you want to improve your drawing skills, sadly it's not something a lot of beginners especially here are keen to do. They seem to think that all design work should be done on the computer, and as a result their designs tend to look pretty stayed and never really progress beyond a certain level. So with that in mind I'd recommend looking at a series of books on drawing called "Force" in particular the one on drawing animals. All are available on amazon, or I'm sure if you dig deep enough on the internet you'll find pdf versions available somewhere, although I'd never condone that sort of thing. The series if primarily for animators and explains how to get movement into your characters but the principles are perfect for sports logo design as it's all about imparting life and excitement into your animal drawings which is exactly how a good sports logo should be. Also look at books on drawing comic art, for similar reasons, Drawing comics the marvel way was always a favourite of mine. It's getting a bit dated now, hell I got my copy nearly 20 years ago and it was a little behind the cutting edge then but the principles are still as tue today even if comic characters have evolved to super-superhuman proportions since it was written. With regards the fins holding the stick, I'd have to say imo adding fingers would be a bad idea, it would be to much anthropomorphism and could just end up looking goofy or confusing the viewer. If you're looking for a great example of how a dolphin would hold something, the previous version of the Miami Dolphins logo had an alternate version where rather than jumping through the hoop the dolphin was on a plain background carrying a football. I'd say check that out and take your cues from there as to how to make an animal with no hands look like its holding something without going to far. Kudos to you for wanting to improve and push yourself as best you can I think it's great and I'm sure you'll learn loads and have a ton of fun doing it, and if there is anything I can do to help out just shout. 9erssteve
  4. I really love this logo, and I'll be honest I don't have a single issue with the underside being completely devoid of detail. In fact it makes perfect sense to me, all the light would be coming from above the turtle so the underside would be in darkness. In saying that though I would like to see the shell highlights continue a little beyond the front flipper. It would help add a little interest beyond that point while still making sense when it comes to natural lighting. They wouldn't have to go all the way to the back, but it would help separate the top part of the shell from the belly, which is a pretty distinct feature on trutles. 9erssteve
  5. Yeah it was little used as the league bombed the idea after it was discovered a neo-Nazi group had a very similar logo! Design wise not bad, but in the real world it would be a bad idea... a REALLY bad idea. 9erssteve
  6. Ok I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a few assumptions about the way you designed your dolphin logo, and why you're not as happy with the finished article as you'd hoped you be. You can then let me know if I'm right, and then we'll see if we cant get you over the "mediocrity" hump you talked about. When you started the logo the first thing you did was pick up your pencil and start drawing your logo right? You got your first draft down on paper as quick as you could and then started tweaking it from there. But no matter how many things you tweaked it just never felt quite right did it? Am I anywhere close? I'm not a betting man, but I'd be willing to stake a few quid that I am. If I am you've done a pretty good job considering but you're never gonna get results you're truly happy with working that way. And I'll tell you why... You're missing a VITAL stage of the process out! Right now it appears you're drawing what you THINK a dolphin looks like then simplifying it to create a logo. What you need to do is study what dolphins ACTUALLY look like and simplify from there! RESEARCH is the key to ANY top quality piece of design be it logo, product or otherwise. That's ESPECIALLY true with animal logos and even more so if you're going for the minor league cartoon style. You have to know what makes a dolphin a dolphin (or whatever your subject is) before you can caricature it, or distil it down to it's simplest forms. Why? Because what YOU THINK makes a dolphin in your mind may vary DRAMATICALLY to what I or someone else pictures a dolphin as in their mind. But if you work from real references to begin with you'll get a much clearer idea of what the essential elements are and what parts to emphasize and what parts to down play. An artist wouldn't try to do a caricature of a famous actor without reference material, say a photo or if they're really lucky having the person there to model for them. Why would you try to do the same thing with an animal but do it without reference material? It's the same process and uses exactly the same principles. Research, it's not sexy, sometimes it's not a ton of fun when all you want to do is draw your logos, but it's 100% NECESSARY and will improve your work 10 fold! If you, or anyone really wants to improve their logo work it's the MOST important thing you can do. Study photos of your subject, collect other logos of the same subject so you can see what you think works and MORE IMPORTANTLY what you'd do DIFFERENTLY. If someone else has already made a mistake it saves you the time of making it yourself, learn from other peoples, but most importantly LEARN about what you're drawing. If you do that you'll be able to communicate the subtleties of your subject that really capture it's character and THAT Is what makes for first class design. 9erssteve
  7. The problem is Redskins IS NOT a term native americans (which I believe is another one) used to describle THEMSELVES. If it was there would be no issue, or perhaps less of an issue. But it's not a term that was in their lexicon and it only came about in the white mans vocabulary as a derogatory slur. But if you're confident in your logic go pitch the LA N***ers as the new expansion team and see how you get on. That's also a word that was popular with white settlers at the time and one African Americans never used to descibe themselves (until recently, and misguidedly if you ask me). Chief and Brave while toeing the line can at least with a relatively clear conscience be considered as respectful tips of the hat to the tribes people who came before, warriors too. Using an actual tribe name, with permission, is genuine tribute but a 200 odd year old slur, I'm sorry I dont care what the intent is, it's continued use is misguided to say the least.
  8. I never said it was a reason to buy one, just that it was the reason for it and the trades existence. They're two very different things. I personally go with option two and have no problem with it at all, but the issue with a grat many of the other options you list is that they involve waiting, and lack of patience is another reason the counterfiet trade exists. The vast majority of fans could probably over time save up and get a genuine authentic, but with player turnover in sports at an all time high, will the player you want still be on the team by the time you've saved the cash? Not how I'd go but that's how some justify it I'm sure. I agree about the speed with which "hot" players jerseys become avaiable, it's essentially what I was saying about patience, but still believe if you could get a Nike Limited jersey for $90 instead of $120 a lot of people would be more inclined to go for that than a poorly made authentic for $60 especially when you see how inaccurate some are. Again it's about moving people to legit product not getting them to invest in the highest level of the legit product right away. That might help, but the ideal solution would have been not setting up shop in a part of the world that has a total disregard for ANY form of copyright law. China has a fake WHITE HOUSE for crying out loud, they've ripped off ENTIRE DISTRICTS from countries ALL OVER THE WORLD and when it was pointed out to them in court that architecture is also protected the court system over there essentially said, we're China we can do what we like. If they're like that with famous buildings from around the world how the hell are you supposed to stop them copying what are essentially over priced t-shirts? 9erssteve
  9. Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made? What's more, companies can be pressured into improving the conditions of their factories and the integrity of their supply chain. Nike has not exactly turned their factories into day-spas... but they have done a lot more than you can expect of counterfeiters. That would be a neat trick as a large portion of the counterfiet good on the market (and I mean all fake good not just football and hockey jerseys) are made in exaclty the same factories as the real thing. Do some reading on the fake trade the evidence is all there. 9erssteve
  10. No I DID NOT suggest they deserve it. All I did was point out there is a tipping point, you push the price to high you leave yourself open to it happening. The fact it's gotten easier to copy work is just another factor in that tipping point. The fact that graphics software adn knowledge is now more prevelant has it's bonuses as well as it's down sides, this forum being a bonus. If creating graphics hadn't become so much easier in recent years 95% of the people on this forum wouldn't be here and wouldn't have an interest in the subject. Sadly with the ease of creation comes the ease of theft, again not condoning it just pointing out it's the flip side to reason why we're all here and love and enjoy the subject matter this site is dedicated to. But all of this BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION comes down to the fact that people are unwilling to pay what Nike or other manufacturers want for their top end products. The reason they dont want pay is because people KNOW how much these things cost to produce and the mark ups arre frankly obscene. There's blame to be had on both sides if we look hard enough for it, if Nike kept production in the US where IP laws are more stringently followed producing counterfiet goods would be harder, but in order to maximise profit they took all the manufacturing work out to Asia where it's well known they have ZERO regard for copyright law. You seem to be acting as if the manufacturers are blamless in all this, they're not. They KNEW the region's disregard for copyright law when they set up their factories there but DID IT ANYWAY. Sleep with dogs you'll get fleas. At the end of the day a price cut would and will solve the issue faster than trying to go the legal route, price the crap knock-off out the market by making the real deal more affordable and problem solved. It's pretty much fact, and it wouldn't take a HUGE cut either that's the sad thing here. The truth is as things stand the amount of money being lost to the counterfieters must be within Nike or anyone elses tolerance levels otherwise we'd have far more drastic action from them than we've seen up until this point, including amoung other things price realignments.
  11. Maybe maybe not. But that's not really important. There are a lot of items I'd like to have and I wish the producers would lower the price. I absolutely fail to see how a price that is perceived as too high (and, FWIW I agree) justifies IP theft. Yeah, they are overpriced. Fortunately, they are also a luxury item that I really do not need to have in order to 1) survive and 2) be happy. I am sending a message to the leagues by not buying their over-priced items. If they were more appropriately priced, I may buy one occasionally. But I don't guy buy some goofy-looking (or, in some cases, pretty decent looking) knock off to "send a message" (that's not the reason anyone buys them...it's to save a buck). There is a process. A creative design effort, etc. It absolutely drives me nuts that people just wait around for someone to do the work and then essentially "photocopy" that work and make money off of it. How someone finds that anything other than "wrong" truly escapes me. Yes, I agree that the prices are too high. But it does not justify the support of IP theft. Greed? Is there no greed involved when leaches copy someone else's work and sell it as their own. The buyer is rewarding laziness and greed. As for "blaming themselves", so the manufacturers are essentially like the woman that gets raped...she was on her own and was wearing a short skirt, so we blame the victim (and please think this through...I am not equating IP theft with rape...but I am pointing out that the IP owner is the victim of counterfeiting and blaming the victim is pretty lazy) What the !!!! Did you just try to compare RAPE VICTIMS and IP theft? Even with the caveat "I'm not equating" thrown in there as an after thought you ARE equating them as YOU brought them up in the same bloody sentence. The two are not even close and NOWHERE did I even insinuate anything close to that you cretin. NOWHERE did I CONDONE IP theft. NOWHERE. I gave the REASON for it's existence and a solution that would work FAR QUICKER than trying to shut down factories in China where they have ZERO REGARD FOR IP LAWS OF ANY KIND. I DID NOT say that purchasing a counterfiet jersey was ok because the price is high, I just pointed out why the opportunity for counterfieting exists. If you cant see that counterfieting exists because people are priced out the market that's your issue, but clearly it's one amoung MANY FAR MORE SERIOUS ISSUES if you think for one second what I said and your ill thought through metaphor have ANY bearing on one another! Authentic Jersey's are a luxury item, and as such will have a higher price tag... but push that tag to high and you leave yourself open to being ripped off. Is it right? No... BUT it's something the IP owners CAN AND DO CONTROL. You're analouge is frankly disgusting and if anyone needs to THINK THIS THROUGH it's yourself.
  12. This whole thread/argument could be put to bed in one fell swoop if the MANUFACTURERS would do ONE simple thing... LOWER THE PRICE. As has been stated on this page $300 for a freaking shirt is practically unjustifiable. I dont care how much "innovation" or "technology" is involved at the end of the day it's a mesh jersey with some numbers stitched on, it's NOT worth $300+. That right there is WHY counterfiets exist. No other reason. If AUTHENTICS cost $150 or less MORE would be sold, and there would be less of a market for counterfiet jerseys. It's simple greed that's fueling the whole cycle. I'd be really interested to know just how much more expesive it is to produce a Nike Limited jersey over a Gameday Replica, and likewise how much more expensive it is to produce an Elite over a Limited, cos I'll bet a $ to pinch of Snuff it's PENNIES difference yet the difference in retail price is MASSIVE. If Nike, or any other manufacturer wanted to shut down counterfieting over night lowering their costs is all they'd have to do. I firmly believe it wouldn't even affect their bottom line as the increase in sales brought about by people who could now easily afford to buy more would more than ensure that their profits stayed healthy. Yes counterfeiting is illegal, but manufacturers have made the rod for thier own backs by ramping up the price of merchandise ludacrously in the last 10 to 15 years so they've no one to blame but themselves. They cant in clear conscience effectively ripp off the paying customer then cry foul when someone does it to them, that's the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.
  13. I never said gold would have been my first choice... but at least it would have been a choice! And that's my biggest issue here. Right now it's like someone couldn't make up their mind said "I want both" and designers came up with the LEAST sucessful way they could think of to do that in order to put the client off. Only it's backfired horrendously and the Jags went for it! Gold would work, sure people would probably have said "why gold, black would have made more sense" but at least it wouldn't have been the horrific mess we currently have. If they really have to keep the fade then at least make the front gloss as well, the fact it's matte just looks terrible with the gloss decal and the natural refelction of the metalic gold, it's a clustercuss of compound clashes, I honestly dont think they could have created a more disjointed design had that been there intention from the beginning.
  14. This just reaffrims my long standing belief that there's no place for gradients in football! That might be "gradientist" or "gradiphobic" but I dont care so far I've NEVER seen a gradient look good on anything football related and I stick by that sentiment. Also you'd think they might have shown that graphic to the poor spray-monkey who painted the helmets cos not only do none of the helmets match, they also dont match the graphic which has the agle of the fade going completely the other way, by that I mean the point the fade stops on the graphic is around 11 o clock while on the actual helmets it's anywhere from 1 to 2 o clock depending on which helmet you see. If they'd just gone for one or the other, black OR gold, this set would have been a dramatic upgrade, but their indecision over which to go with looks like EXACTLY THAT, the helmets look half finished! IMO it doesn't look "cool" or "clever" or like the Jag is "stalking from the shadows" or whatever. It looks like they couldn't make up their mind and it's half done, especially with the front being matte! It looks like the primer is showing! Nearly a week on I still cant believe they screwed the pooch so badly with the helmet... still SMH.
  15. Upon first seeing this that was my reaction too! The whole thing reeks of clip art. Way to much finicky detail which will be murder to reproduce at smaller sizes, crazy variance in line weight with no real ryhme or reason. It looks like it was cobbled together from photos found on a google image search then bashed though live trace and finished off with pretty generic block serif text with as many outlines as it could physically handle plus one more to make it cool! All in all not a terribly impressive logo.
  16. I think it's actually the opposite of cheap. From what I've read about the Texans and other teams (so I'm assuming it's true of them all) players have at least two helmets, one for practice and a game day helmet which is reconditioned WEEKLY! It's striped and re-decaled every week in order to prevent the helmets looking knackered by week 16. If you for want of a better word, imprint or sublimate a graphic onto the helmet there's no way to improve it's appearance once damaged. You can remove a torn or damaged decal and refresh the helmet easy enough from one week to the next but a player isn't going to want to break in a new helmet every week. But I'm with you on the fact that gloss decals on matte helmets looks naff to say the least, although of all the instances I've seen this Viking helemt appears to be the least worst, if that makes sense.
  17. From the Nike Football FB page : "Claw marks highlight the shoulder and neckline" So the jaguar clawed itself? No but that's apparently how Jaguars take down their prey. They pounce over the shoulder and pull it down with their claws. You can explain it any way you want after the fact I reckon it was done because they could do it, wanted to do something with a new material so they did it. And for once I think I can live with it. My biggest issue with the jersey is the number of outlines and how elongated they get at the serifs by the time they reach the tip of the gold. That's the problem with outlining such a sharp font, the mitres become a pain in the ass. But other than that the jerseys are to me at least an upgrade over what they had before which I found pretty bland. The helmets though... jeezo I want them killed with the utmost violence possible. They offend just about every design sensibility I have. First off the stop... sorry I mean "fade" which doesn't seem to match on any two helmets shown so far. Then there's the fact that some genius thought it would be great idea to make the black matte, which only exacerbates the half finished look, because the front of the helmet ends up looking like exposed primer! Then to top all that off we have the crazy oversized GLOSS decal that clashes with the matte part of the helmet something chronic! That's an epic amount of fail on one helmet! As far as I'm concerned there's three real phases to any rebrand: The logo - Downgrade (unless you pull the 120% high by 100% wide trick then I can see at least a few positives to it, but would probably still just prefer the original. As it is the old one wins hands down for me). The Jersey - Upgrade, I wasn't to fussed with their last effort, this one I think could have been really pretty smart had they not insisted on the all the outlines on the numbers. Pick gold OR teal and go with a single outline and this jersey even with the "shiny" bits is a serious upgrade over what they had last year. The Helmet - Well I hated the teal/black flip paint job they used to have, and of all the Jags traditions they had to keep why did "worst helmet" in the NFL have to be it? There was a time when I thought the Jags helmet was perfect, then they messed with it, and like a dog going back to it's own vomit they've messed with it some more... only instead of having ONE helmet with TWO paint jobs what we have now is ONE helmet with HALF a paint job!!!!!!!!!! I honestly thought I couldn't hate a helmet change more than the one the Jags pulled last time... Oh boy was I wrong! SMH.
  18. I have to say I like the logo and think it's a big improvement over the previous one, but there is something I find a little odd about it. I might be wrong, as I haven't seen the tip-off images that were apparently posted by Fraser a while back, but I cant help but feel there's been more than one pair of hands at work on this one. The top half just doesn't seem to have the exact same style as the bottom half. The differences are subtle, but they're there. The top half seems to rely more on almost straight lines to create shapes. There is some curvature to many of the lines but many of the stronger shapes are made up with lines which feature only the subtlest of curves. Contrast that with the bottom half of the logo where you have some really eloquent flowing curves, for example in the way the lower teeth are rendered and hopefully you'll see what I mean. If I was to hazard a guess I'd say that someone has come along and made the top half ever so slightly more angular at a later stage, in order to make it look more aggressive. Like I said I might be wrong perhaps it's always been that way the difference is subtle but it's something I feel is there. Either way it's a big improvement on what came before. 9erssteve Here's a look at Fraser's original version. I managed to find this online (designspiration or pinterest, can't remember which) when the initial news of the change came out. It's not very helpful on the top half, but you can see a few alterations in the mouth area. Yeah they've tweaked the mouth a fair bit, and with regards the top half, I think I may have been right. Look at how much farther the dark triangular details on the sides of the head now come into the white, and how much longer the two dark spikes that frame the eyes are. I know Fraser likes to distort his images to protect them when he puts them online but surely that alone cant explain the differences. Looks like Fraser's leaked version might also have had a body or at least some sort of shoulders to it. Would be interesting to know if there's still a version like that in the final logo suite or not. 9erssteve Oh and what the hell did the nostrils do to upset Nike so much they nixed? Reminds me of the joke... My Huskie has no nose...
  19. I have to say I like the logo and think it's a big improvement over the previous one, but there is something I find a little odd about it. I might be wrong, as I haven't seen the tip-off images that were apparently posted by Fraser a while back, but I cant help but feel there's been more than one pair of hands at work on this one. The top half just doesn't seem to have the exact same style as the bottom half. The differences are subtle, but they're there. The top half seems to rely more on almost straight lines to create shapes. There is some curvature to many of the lines but many of the stronger shapes are made up with lines which feature only the subtlest of curves. Contrast that with the bottom half of the logo where you have some really eloquent flowing curves, for example in the way the lower teeth are rendered and hopefully you'll see what I mean. If I was to hazard a guess I'd say that someone has come along and made the top half ever so slightly more angular at a later stage, in order to make it look more aggressive. Like I said I might be wrong perhaps it's always been that way the difference is subtle but it's something I feel is there. Either way it's a big improvement on what came before. 9erssteve
  20. Bump. I know this kinda got lost in all the Jags overhaul outrage but really does no one have any feedback? 9erssteve
  21. Really? Black being "intimidating" is one of the most cliched and over used excuses for throwing black at a design that neither warrants nor needs it. If players are intimidated by the colour of the opposing teams shirts I suggest they go play tiddlywinks cos football isn't the sport for them. And for the record the only undefeated NFL team played most of that season in white shirts! It'sTEAMS that are intimidating not shirts, and adding black for blacks sake wont change that. Ever. As for white in a Canadian set being predictable, well that's kinda the point! That's why National teams tend to play in THEIR national colours. So that people will be able to identify them instantly. National uni's shouldn't be about "cool" or "intimidating" they should be about doing something creative with a country's colours to help envoke national pride and aid recognition. 9erssteve
  22. I've been following these on Dribble and I'm really impressed with them. The only issue I have is with the Canadian set. Right now I feel there's far to much black on there for a country that has no black anywhere in it's national flag. I'd love to see a version where the balck is all switched out for white, I just think it would feel more Canadian, but that's just my opinion. Keep up the great work, not usually into uni threads but this is one of the few that really interests me. 9erssteve
  23. Sorry I couldn't more strongly disagree. If you ask me what makes clip-art "clip-arty" is way too much detail! Look at any clip art site and you'll see illustrations with no variation in line weight, and way more detail/elements/lines and way more colours than are actually required. What makes a logo a logo is being able to depict something, in this case a jaguar, with the minimum of shapes and the minimum of colours. That way it will work well at very small sizes and very large ones, across all applications. This logo will lose all those tiney details when used at pretty much anything smaller than helmet decal size, and will lose even more when embroidered, which makes it an instant downgrade in my book as it's useability is reduced. And all of that is before I even consider the fact it looks like it's been done by two or more people, in two differing styles, the proportions are ALL WRONG, and the perspective on the nose is compeletly different to the rest of the head! Adding white was a nice idea, but that's about the only good thing I can say, because the execution of the added white is also flawed, it doesn't match on the top lip. One side holds all the whiskers the other doesn't! Could have been a success but I think to many cooks have spoiled this one, it genuinely looks like it's been designed by committee. 9erssteve
  24. That's because the old logos lasted far longer than they should have, as two of the worst logos in the league. Even with all their flaws, the new ones deserve to stand far longer. The Carolina one yes I can agree had started to look very dated, and I'm not sure that the changes made last year will or have done anything to add longevity to it, but it did need looking at. But I'm sorry I dont agree on the Jags logo. It was imo one of the most original and creative logo's in the NFL. It's bold use of negative space being the key reason I loved it so much. In recent years, through gimmicks and people not understanding what it was that made the mark strong to begin with, that was undermined. The logo made no sense as soon as the pearlescent effect was added to the helmet, and I'm glad all the talk and rumour I have seen has that dying the death it so rightly deserves. The original Jags logo could easily have stood another 5 years or more without being touched if the original plain black helmets were reinstated. I dont believe the same is true of this incarnation, infact I doubt it will last 5 years before it's tweaked again! Between it's extraneous golds, it's inconsistencies, it's fiddly little details which wont translate to the majority of uses it'll be required for and it's rediculous proportions! Seriously it looks like it's been enlarged out of pro, at around 140% width to 100% height, which results in it looking more like a female house cat than a wild cat of any description I think the Jags have taken a serious backward step. Not to mention that no matter how flawed their previous logo was, and it had some, to my eye they have created more problems for themselves with this logo than they ever had with their previous one, which utterly defeats the purpose of updating a logo or rebranding. 9erssteve
  25. The biggest issues I have with the new logo are, it's lack of consistencey, the amount of finiky and tiny extraneous detail, the fact the white areas on the top lip dont match, one side holds all the whiskers the other doesn't and worst of all the perspective on the nose doesn't seem to match the rest of the head. By lack of consistency I mean that various parts of the logo dont follow the same style. Take for example the lower jaw, bold sweeping lines, strong angles to suggest fur as with the previous logo. Then on the top of the head you have TINY thin cuts to create the fur effect, which will be a NIGHTMARE to reproduce at small sizes, on TV, when Embroidered etc. Personally I prefer the former style: bold, simplified, distilling things down to their essence. Explaining the item with as few lines and details as possible. That to me is logo design. With that said, if the ownership in Jacksonville wanted to go with what seems like the new trend and produce a logo like the Manitoba Moose one above then fine, go for it... but do it to the WHOLE LOGO, not just parts of it! Right now the whole thing reeks of a logo that someone else has tampered with. It doesn't have a complete feel to it. It's neither highly detailed, nor bold and simplified and as a result falls awkwardly between the two and imo fails as a strong logo. The change of angle doesn't bother me to much, the white on the lower jaw should actually help lift the logo, if as rumours suggest they're going back to a solid black helmet. The extra teal additions I quite like although they seem strange considering the team seems to be reducing it's teal usage everywhere else in it's branding package! While there are some things I like in this new version, all in all there are just to many inconsistencies and problem areas in this logo for me to consider it an overall up grade. 9erssteve