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Everything posted by 9erssteve

  1. I never said it was a reason to buy one, just that it was the reason for it and the trades existence. They're two very different things. I personally go with option two and have no problem with it at all, but the issue with a grat many of the other options you list is that they involve waiting, and lack of patience is another reason the counterfiet trade exists. The vast majority of fans could probably over time save up and get a genuine authentic, but with player turnover in sports at an all time high, will the player you want still be on the team by the time you've saved the cash? Not how I'd go but that's how some justify it I'm sure. I agree about the speed with which "hot" players jerseys become avaiable, it's essentially what I was saying about patience, but still believe if you could get a Nike Limited jersey for $90 instead of $120 a lot of people would be more inclined to go for that than a poorly made authentic for $60 especially when you see how inaccurate some are. Again it's about moving people to legit product not getting them to invest in the highest level of the legit product right away. That might help, but the ideal solution would have been not setting up shop in a part of the world that has a total disregard for ANY form of copyright law. China has a fake WHITE HOUSE for crying out loud, they've ripped off ENTIRE DISTRICTS from countries ALL OVER THE WORLD and when it was pointed out to them in court that architecture is also protected the court system over there essentially said, we're China we can do what we like. If they're like that with famous buildings from around the world how the hell are you supposed to stop them copying what are essentially over priced t-shirts? 9erssteve
  2. Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made? What's more, companies can be pressured into improving the conditions of their factories and the integrity of their supply chain. Nike has not exactly turned their factories into day-spas... but they have done a lot more than you can expect of counterfeiters. That would be a neat trick as a large portion of the counterfiet good on the market (and I mean all fake good not just football and hockey jerseys) are made in exaclty the same factories as the real thing. Do some reading on the fake trade the evidence is all there. 9erssteve
  3. No I DID NOT suggest they deserve it. All I did was point out there is a tipping point, you push the price to high you leave yourself open to it happening. The fact it's gotten easier to copy work is just another factor in that tipping point. The fact that graphics software adn knowledge is now more prevelant has it's bonuses as well as it's down sides, this forum being a bonus. If creating graphics hadn't become so much easier in recent years 95% of the people on this forum wouldn't be here and wouldn't have an interest in the subject. Sadly with the ease of creation comes the ease of theft, again not condoning it just pointing out it's the flip side to reason why we're all here and love and enjoy the subject matter this site is dedicated to. But all of this BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION comes down to the fact that people are unwilling to pay what Nike or other manufacturers want for their top end products. The reason they dont want pay is because people KNOW how much these things cost to produce and the mark ups arre frankly obscene. There's blame to be had on both sides if we look hard enough for it, if Nike kept production in the US where IP laws are more stringently followed producing counterfiet goods would be harder, but in order to maximise profit they took all the manufacturing work out to Asia where it's well known they have ZERO regard for copyright law. You seem to be acting as if the manufacturers are blamless in all this, they're not. They KNEW the region's disregard for copyright law when they set up their factories there but DID IT ANYWAY. Sleep with dogs you'll get fleas. At the end of the day a price cut would and will solve the issue faster than trying to go the legal route, price the crap knock-off out the market by making the real deal more affordable and problem solved. It's pretty much fact, and it wouldn't take a HUGE cut either that's the sad thing here. The truth is as things stand the amount of money being lost to the counterfieters must be within Nike or anyone elses tolerance levels otherwise we'd have far more drastic action from them than we've seen up until this point, including amoung other things price realignments.
  4. Maybe maybe not. But that's not really important. There are a lot of items I'd like to have and I wish the producers would lower the price. I absolutely fail to see how a price that is perceived as too high (and, FWIW I agree) justifies IP theft. Yeah, they are overpriced. Fortunately, they are also a luxury item that I really do not need to have in order to 1) survive and 2) be happy. I am sending a message to the leagues by not buying their over-priced items. If they were more appropriately priced, I may buy one occasionally. But I don't guy buy some goofy-looking (or, in some cases, pretty decent looking) knock off to "send a message" (that's not the reason anyone buys them...it's to save a buck). There is a process. A creative design effort, etc. It absolutely drives me nuts that people just wait around for someone to do the work and then essentially "photocopy" that work and make money off of it. How someone finds that anything other than "wrong" truly escapes me. Yes, I agree that the prices are too high. But it does not justify the support of IP theft. Greed? Is there no greed involved when leaches copy someone else's work and sell it as their own. The buyer is rewarding laziness and greed. As for "blaming themselves", so the manufacturers are essentially like the woman that gets raped...she was on her own and was wearing a short skirt, so we blame the victim (and please think this through...I am not equating IP theft with rape...but I am pointing out that the IP owner is the victim of counterfeiting and blaming the victim is pretty lazy) What the !!!! Did you just try to compare RAPE VICTIMS and IP theft? Even with the caveat "I'm not equating" thrown in there as an after thought you ARE equating them as YOU brought them up in the same bloody sentence. The two are not even close and NOWHERE did I even insinuate anything close to that you cretin. NOWHERE did I CONDONE IP theft. NOWHERE. I gave the REASON for it's existence and a solution that would work FAR QUICKER than trying to shut down factories in China where they have ZERO REGARD FOR IP LAWS OF ANY KIND. I DID NOT say that purchasing a counterfiet jersey was ok because the price is high, I just pointed out why the opportunity for counterfieting exists. If you cant see that counterfieting exists because people are priced out the market that's your issue, but clearly it's one amoung MANY FAR MORE SERIOUS ISSUES if you think for one second what I said and your ill thought through metaphor have ANY bearing on one another! Authentic Jersey's are a luxury item, and as such will have a higher price tag... but push that tag to high and you leave yourself open to being ripped off. Is it right? No... BUT it's something the IP owners CAN AND DO CONTROL. You're analouge is frankly disgusting and if anyone needs to THINK THIS THROUGH it's yourself.
  5. This whole thread/argument could be put to bed in one fell swoop if the MANUFACTURERS would do ONE simple thing... LOWER THE PRICE. As has been stated on this page $300 for a freaking shirt is practically unjustifiable. I dont care how much "innovation" or "technology" is involved at the end of the day it's a mesh jersey with some numbers stitched on, it's NOT worth $300+. That right there is WHY counterfiets exist. No other reason. If AUTHENTICS cost $150 or less MORE would be sold, and there would be less of a market for counterfiet jerseys. It's simple greed that's fueling the whole cycle. I'd be really interested to know just how much more expesive it is to produce a Nike Limited jersey over a Gameday Replica, and likewise how much more expensive it is to produce an Elite over a Limited, cos I'll bet a $ to pinch of Snuff it's PENNIES difference yet the difference in retail price is MASSIVE. If Nike, or any other manufacturer wanted to shut down counterfieting over night lowering their costs is all they'd have to do. I firmly believe it wouldn't even affect their bottom line as the increase in sales brought about by people who could now easily afford to buy more would more than ensure that their profits stayed healthy. Yes counterfeiting is illegal, but manufacturers have made the rod for thier own backs by ramping up the price of merchandise ludacrously in the last 10 to 15 years so they've no one to blame but themselves. They cant in clear conscience effectively ripp off the paying customer then cry foul when someone does it to them, that's the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.
  6. I think it's actually the opposite of cheap. From what I've read about the Texans and other teams (so I'm assuming it's true of them all) players have at least two helmets, one for practice and a game day helmet which is reconditioned WEEKLY! It's striped and re-decaled every week in order to prevent the helmets looking knackered by week 16. If you for want of a better word, imprint or sublimate a graphic onto the helmet there's no way to improve it's appearance once damaged. You can remove a torn or damaged decal and refresh the helmet easy enough from one week to the next but a player isn't going to want to break in a new helmet every week. But I'm with you on the fact that gloss decals on matte helmets looks naff to say the least, although of all the instances I've seen this Viking helemt appears to be the least worst, if that makes sense.
  7. Actually not true. If you work for a company that sells those jerseys and offers a bonus based on sales, then you are losing money based on someone buying a counterfeit instead of a legit jersey. Or a counterfeit instead of a t-shirt. Or supporting a bogus business and allowing it to exist. Yeah nice Hypothetical, but that's not how the NFL works. The NFL owns the rights to ALL the logos and licences them to Nike for the uniforms. The logo's are designed either in house by designers on a fixed wage, or by an outside agency who are paid a one off fee. Its not a hypothetical it happens at the manufactures. Designers work for the manufactures. Yeah you're right NIke probably does employ designers too. But if you think they're employed to design NFL uniforms EXCLUSIVELY, and that they receive any kind of "bonus" based on the sales of them then I think you're living in cloud cukoo land! 9erssteve
  8. Actually not true. If you work for a company that sells those jerseys and offers a bonus based on sales, then you are losing money based on someone buying a counterfeit instead of a legit jersey. Or a counterfeit instead of a t-shirt. Or supporting a bogus business and allowing it to exist. Yeah nice Hypothetical, but that's not how the NFL works. The NFL owns the rights to ALL the logos and licences them to Nike for the uniforms. The logo's are designed either in house by designers on a fixed wage, or by an outside agency who are paid a one off fee. Actually not true. If you work for a company that sells those jerseys and offers a bonus based on sales, then you are losing money based on someone buying a counterfeit instead of a legit jersey. Or a counterfeit instead of a t-shirt. Or supporting a bogus business and allowing it to exist. 9ersSteve, that's a really stupid post. Think about it - teams / leagues have a budget for designs, and a percentage of that budget is allocated to paying the artists or design firms for their work. If they're not selling as much legit stuff due to people buying fakes, then eventually the apparel and license deals go down, and all of a sudden the revenue generated by coming up with a redesign is lower, which means that the budget is lower, which means that the designer gets paid less. Honestly, to think that everyone involved in producing a design isn't affected by IP theft is ridiculous at best. In the long term yeah you're 100% correct, but people were talking in here like designers recieve a percentage of every jersey sold, in real time, and that's not the case. That was what I meant by that statement, sorry if I wasn't 100% clear on that. But with that said lets be honest here, Nike or whoever the manufacturer is would be likely to take DRASTIC action against counterfieters LONG before the trickle down in losses made a serious dent in what they pay designers, for two reasons. 1. they pay designers a MINISCULE amount compared with the profits they generate from the goods they sell with the designs on them, so 2. If they ever lost the kind of money required to reduce the amount profit they make to the point where budgets for design are slashed they'd have far bigger things to worry about than paying designers! The facts are, Authentic jerseys are priced high, in order to make them a luxury item, the result is that it leaves them open to having their goods counterfieted. It's NOT RIGHT, but that is the cause. Does it harm the design industry?YES. But I'd argue the harm it does affects smaller designers FAR more. Nike/Reebok/Addidas etc etc's INACTION with regards IP theft (because right now it's not hurting their balance books enough) means that counterfieters think it's OK to steal ANYONE'S work! Smaller designer's are losing out thru IP theft of their work and there's NOTHING THEY CAN DO, because if BIG COMPANIES let it slide then the courts dont take IP THEFT SERIOUSLY ENOUGH! As a result you end up with situations like Davidson posted about this morning where HIS designs are ripped off again! Now I dont want to speculate as to Davidson's financial situation but I bet he cant afford to lose out on the time and what should rightfully be his money in the way Nike can! Becuase (in this case) Nike dont (or wont) do anything about it, you can bet Davidson has little hope of stopping those using his work without permission, or seeing any money for his work if they do keep using it. If you ask me THAT is the real harm that's being done to the design industry in this. Intelectual Property is not being protected in the way it SHOULD, because it isn't affect big companies profit lines, and that is WRONG. This is something big corporations COULD do a number of things to stop, TOMORROW if they wanted to, but wont, because there's no real financial benefit in it for them and that's all they care about. At the end of the day they're screwing the designers of the world too, they're just doing it in different ways. 9erssteve
  9. I never said Nike was pricing itself out the market, I said it was pricing a percentage of potential consumers out the market. Big difference, yes people are still buying authentic jerseys and yes it must be profitable or else Nike wouldn't still be doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the price point that is the cause of the Fake trade. You're right an authentic jersey is a luxury item, but think about it this way, so is a Jaguar motor car. And as expensive as Jaguar motors are, the consumer does not pay more for his than a Pro Racing team that professionally develops, designs tests and races cars. So why is it that sports fans pay more for their jerseys than the teams do? Anyway that's slighty off point so back on track... it seems to me we actually agree on more than we disagree on. Yes a fair percentage of people buying fakes are not really cutting into Nike's (or Reebok's in the past) profits on authentic jersey sales as they probably wouldn't have bought one at the current price anyway, it doesn't make it right but it does explain why the fakes exist. They exist because people feel the prices are to high. The fix is lower the prices, but as we've both said right now the losses being made are clearly not big enough for Nike (this time round) to take that step. If prices were lower there wouldn't be a demand for fake products, I think that's a pretty indisputable fact, be it sports jerseys, watches, handbags etc etc. Again I dont encourage people to do it, I'm just trying to find a reason why the trade exists at all, and right now it's the only explaination I can come up with. 9erssteve
  10. As the Borg would say (TNG 25th anniversary and all) that's irrelevant. Designers probably aren't being effected by the sale of knockoffs, but the intellectual property is still owned by someone. Be it the league, team, or manufacturer. If you want a San Francisco 49ers jersey and have the money to spend on it, then the 49ers, NFL, and Nike deserve your money. You want a good that they own the rights to. Simple. By buying a fake you cheat the legit owners of the IP out of money they earned by building and marketing a brand you as a consumer wish to buy into. Now no doubt someone will say "oh, the league/team/manufacturer is a huge corporation, who cares if they lose money?" To which I respond "yeah, well theft is still theft." With regards IP theft you're right the whole designer angle is irrelevant. But when a person a couple of posts up claimed it was gonna hurt designers, it kinda ir relevant as it's not truly the case, because sadly designers very very rarely get a percentage from the logo's they produce once they're finished. Again with regards paying for IP, in this case football jerseys I'm in total agreement. If people want the product they should pay for the real deal. All I'm saying is that the fake trade exists because the price of the real thing is very high, and people cant or wont pay the prices. If Nike or whoever the manufacturer is wanted to end the trade in fakes the simplest and most effective solution would be to make the legitimate product more affordable, but right now they clearly feel the losses they are incurring at the hands of the fake trade are not that great or dont warrant that action. 9erssteve
  11. I own a fake or two as well, and another reason I do is that I dont live in the states and getting acces to LEGIT merchandise can be a TOTAL NIGHTMARE! Seriously, until VERY recently the NFL shop DID NOT ship outside the states, and even when it started doing so we didn't have access to the full range of stuff. Even THIS YEAR, the NFL made a big deal out of it's new NFL-UK shop, but so far each team has only REPLICA jerseys available and only for ONE PLAYER PER TEAM! Again at the end of the day it comes down to the NFL (or whichever league) making IT'S LEGITIMATE product more accessable. Price it right, and make it available everywhere (at the same price - ie exchange rate, NOT swapping dollars for local currency) which in this day and age IS NOT HARD and the demand for knock-offs will fall dramatically OVERNIGHT. For the record I'm not encouraging the trade in fakes for one second, as a designer I'm not about to encourage IP theft, I understand the consequences it has for the design industry only to well. But this issue exists BECAUSE of the way Sports leagues and apparell manufacturers CHOOSE to price and sell THEIR products. It's nothing to do with the designers! If the Leagues and Manufacturers made different decisions then CONSUMERS would too! But until THEY change how they operate the problem wont go away, and using the whole IP theft argument, or going after the consumer is the wrong way to go about solving it. Giving the consumer the real deal at a BETTER price solves the issue! It's simple supply and demand, if the legitimate producers wont provide a product at a price consumers feel is appropriate, and lets be honest here THEY DONT, $300 for an authentic jersey is CRAZY when you stop and think about it, they leave themselves open to being undercut by fakers. Clearly the NFL feels the losses they are sustaining at present to the fake jersey trade are negligible because lets be honest they could have come down MUCH harder on it before now, had they really wanted/needed to in oprder to protect their brand and profits. 9erssteve
  12. I can agree with this. That's only true if the person purchasing the jersey has the money to afford a $300 jersey. The reason most people are drawn to knock-off jerseys in the first place is the fact they often come in at about TEN PERCENT the price of a real one! I genuinely dont think that people buy knock-offs to stop Nike getting their hard earned cash (well certainly not the majority anyway) it's purely a case of being priced out the market. Like you said you agree that the NFL (and other leagues) and the manufacturers have brought it upon themselves, so if they want to fix the problem all they need to do is LOWER the price of the genuine article. How can they justify $300 for a shirt anyway? It sure as hell doesn't cost anywhere NEAR that to produce, and the first person that gives me the "years of reasearch and development arguement will get laughed down", it's a shirt for pities sake not a super computer or a space probe! If they priced replica's around $50, Limiteds/Premiers around $80 and Authentics at about $100 I can pretty much guarantee they'd still make a profit and pretty much INSTANTLY kill off the knock-off market at the same time as those who buy knock-offs and put up with the flaws would buy the REAL THING, and be happy about it. It's would be win-win. As for the IP Theft issue, I can pretty much guanatee that ZERO DESIGNERS are being affected by the sale of knock-off jerseys, as I'll bet every designers that's worked on ANY of the logo's used in any sports league today will have been PAID ALREADY. They'll have recieved a one off fee for the entire project and then signed ownership of the logo OVER TO THE TEAM OR LEAGUE. So yeah IP theft has still occured but it wont have hit the designer in the pocket as he/she doesn't receive a percentage of the profits generated from their work anyway. The problem is easily fixable as I stated above, but large organisations often fail to see the fact that actually reducing costs to consumers and therefore selling more units is often a better way to increase profits than hiring bigger stars to do thier adverts and bumping up the prices of thier products and relying on those already loyal to their brand. 9erssteve
  13. I started one years ago, and keep adding to it when I have the chance. But every time I post a new concept that team gets shut down the next year, so for the sake of the league perhaps it's best if I dont continue! 9erssteve
  14. I just missed out on my white whale AGAIN at the weekend. A genuine '94 Wilson Steve Young 75th Anniversary Throwback 49ers jersey. Totally gutted it was on Ebay, checked it out was the real deal, from a UK collector so postage would have been reasonable too but got done by like £5! Although to be fair even then I'd extended myself over what I could actually afford. Why do these things only come up when cash is tight? ***pumps fist in the air and screams "Damn you god of unattainable football jerseys! Damn you to heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllll!!!*** 9erssteve
  15. Nice one, thanks for letting me know. I hope you have as much fun using it as I have your cap templates, which are awesome by the way! 9erssteve
  16. Okay as promised here's the folder with the PSD file for the jersey I posted above. Actually there are two PSD's in the folder one is the jersey itself the other is the displacement map you'll need if you want the numbers to conform to the folds in the material and not look like they are floating. http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=87cd44752063a4d96e7203eb873681290222c810472604ddd6f20ee4ff677d52 First time I've ever used a hosting thing like this so if someone could try downloading it and make sure it all works for them that would be great, any probs let me know they'll just be cos I'm a clueless newbie at this but I'll do my best to sort them asap if there are any. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the file and I look forward to seeing what folk do with it and what new additions they can come up with to push it beyond the basic template it is just now. 9erssteve
  17. Cool, I'll go sign up there and get the file upload asap. 9erssteve
  18. I got this if anyone's interested. Started it for my own use about a year ago and never really perfected it cos to be honest uni's aren't really something I do a lot of so if someone can make use of it they're welcome to it. PSD file is 8cm x 9cm @150 dpi, all panels are individually editable using hue and saturation. The cut is what you see, there are no extra panels or piping options if you want them you'll have to add them I'm afraid. It's based on the jersey the 49ers and Jags released last season so I'm pretty sure it's the most up to date Reebok style. If anyone is keen let me know where the best place to host it is, so it's easiest for everyone to get, and I'll put it there later today. 9erssteve
  19. They look awesome, last one maybe looks a little purplish but other than that they look outstanding. The only question I've got is what happened to the jaw pad on the inside? I'm sure your earlier versions all had it in there. 9erssteve
  20. Nice job on the iridescent look, but I have to say I didn't like the idea when they announced it and still dont like it now. What I loved about the Jags helmet was that the logo essentially had no outlines at all, the whole helmet became part of the logo. It was a ballsy move imo, no other NFL team used negative space in such a way and it really set them apart. Now with the teal iridescence that's lost and the outlines become visible completely undoing a brave move that made them unique, ah well that's "progress" I guess. Oh yeah watch how you're selecting the face mask you still have some green artifacts around some of the edges. 9erssteve
  21. There was a tutorial for a basket ball shirt, believe it or not, on a hockey graphics site but I cant remember which one. I thought I had it bookmarked but cant seem to find it. I downloaded the PDFs though so if you wanna PM me with your email addy I can send those over for you. I used it to attempt a photo real football jersey and it worked really well. There was only one mistake in it and that was the keyboard shortcut for creating layer masks but once I'd got past that it' was really clear to understand and the results were fantastic. The one I started was nowhere near big enough for what you're after, it was only about 6 x 6.5 inches at 300ppi and weighed in at a hefty 116.5 meg so not sure how big your file will end up! I would send you mine and save you some time but sadly, like so many things real work got in the way, it was never finished and I moved onto something new, should really get it finished though. 9erssteve
  22. Briefly I can say that some water based decals have a border of clear decal material, with a slight shade or color shift from the color of the helmet below, surrounding the entire design. The type of decals as used on scale modeling. (dip in water and release) Used particularly on lower priced applications. Something for high school levels and below. Bubbles and slight blemishes and scratches can be added for realism. The next type of application would be the vinyl (peel & stick) self-adhesive decal. The outline would surely have a very subtle highlight and shadow based on light source due to the base material's thickness. These stickers scratch easily, rip, and oozing adhesive can build up on the rim which will catch dirt. Finally sharply cornered edges may peel a bit. The highest level of application (higher level colleges and pro teams) is using a very thin inked film that is applied similarly to the first example above, but applied with chemicals. This decal makes the design the most permanent and durable. To see this type of decal, check out the markings on a good quality, recent model bike or metal baseball bat. Try to scratch it with your fingernail. Look for thickness of material & ink. Check for a possible clear border. So with these high end decals, wear and tear would be minimal. davidson nailed to when his decal on the British Lion logo contained a subtle "bevel" applied. For all three of the above decals are most likely screen printing when produced, providing a slight thicker buildup of ink. That's my 2 cents, davidson may fill in on the "how to" in order to complete your desired results. If not, I can offline. Sorry davidson, I started this intended to be brief, but I then thought folks may want to consider the quality level of the decals based on the level of their team. I beg to differ, the vast majority of pro teams still use 2mm vinyl decals. If you check the Image (ignore bumper on back that's a photoshop mockup by me) there is clearly 3 or more mm of clear vinyl around the logo. There are exceptions, I believe the Rams and Bengals paint theirs due the size and resulting complex curves that the decals would have to form round, and the Raiders use white vinyl and cut it exactly to size. The reason you never see damage to NFL decals anymore is that the helmets are stripped down every week and the graphics reapplied so the helmets always look as close to new as possible, unlike in the 80's when decals were never changed and a player could get to the probowl and he'd be lucky if he had much of the graphics on his helmet intact depending on the position played. I have an article about the company that produces the decals for the NFL bookmarked somewhere, if anyone interested I'll try and find the link. The easiest way to achieve that look in photoshop would be to simply select your logo expand the selection by a few pixels, fill the expanded area the same colour as the shell colour then use a very subtle layer emboss. You could perhaps look at a VERY subtle plastic wrap or something like that to add some extra highlights, or try messing about with distorting the colour as if it's being viewed through the vinyl but having played with Davison's template already I think all the highlights etc that are already on the overlay layers are more than enough. 9erssteve
  23. Or if you're feeling brave you could always uses the envelope distort with mesh function, but it's trickier and will probably take you longer... much longer. There is also a distort with mesh function in Photoshop as well under the Edit menu > Transform > Warp for those who only have photoshop. And thanks for the renders I asked for Davidson, they are awesome! 9erssteve
  24. Thanks man! Much appreciated. 9erssteve
  25. Once again Davidson you have out done yourself on both the skill and the generosity fronts! Many thanks. If you would be kind enough to post something similar to this one which you used to display your Monarchs logo earlier in the week that would be awesome! I loved that angle and it was so close to a small crappy photo that i'd found and was trying to create a template from that it inspired me to have a go at making a decent template! So I've been trying to recreate it in Illustrator and while the shell is looking ok just now, I think trying to reproduce the face mask and the subsequent reflections they produce may well cause my head exploded in a similar manner to the poor victims in the movie Scanners! Here's what I have so far, I think for the sake of learning I'll try to continue with this templet but I think for the sake of better results your way will be much, much better. Thanks 9erssteve
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