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  1. Ok I've been living under a rock for a while now... actually I've got 7 week old son so the internet has become a rare treat for me, but am I the only one who thinks what the 9ers did with their new uni's is in fact one of the most remarkably innovative things a uniform manufacturer has ever done? I mean they just flipped the bird at the folk in china who've been ripping them off and making those horrendous black "fashion" football jerseys for years by ripping them off right back and making the jersey OFFICIAL! It's flip-copyright theft #Genius! Obviously I'm being sarcastic, the jerseys are pretty much an abomination, but the second I saw them they reminded me of those nasty fake jerseys and that was honestly the only reason I could come up with for them doing it, because to claim it was a design decision is an affront to decisions.
  2. GFB nailed it with the feedback and I cant help feeling you've missed a trick here. The last hand drawn sketch you posted was by far the best incarnation of the logo. There was subtle variation in the scales that make up the shell and it gave the logo character, when you went to vector you just divided up the shell with pen tool and suddenly all that character and individuality was gone, leaving the logo a little soulless in comparison to the sketch. Don't get me wrong what you're left with is a good logo, but I cant help feeling it could have been so much better if you'd been true to your drawing at the vector stage. 9erssteve
  3. Being hard on yourself when it comes to getting results is great. I'm never going to rip on someone who's trying to improve, and if I can across that way I'm sorry. With regards the logo, I think it's ok. It's not a show stopper but it's certainly a lot better than some I've seen both here and on other logo forums so dont put yourself down. You're right finding a photo of a dolphin shaped as a C is gonna be pretty tough to find but a google search for "dolphin doing a somersault" turn up this little gem which could be of use if you dont have it already... https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2043/2330581005_8022207650_z.jpg?zz=1 I think it's great you want to improve your drawing skills, sadly it's not something a lot of beginners especially here are keen to do. They seem to think that all design work should be done on the computer, and as a result their designs tend to look pretty stayed and never really progress beyond a certain level. So with that in mind I'd recommend looking at a series of books on drawing called "Force" in particular the one on drawing animals. All are available on amazon, or I'm sure if you dig deep enough on the internet you'll find pdf versions available somewhere, although I'd never condone that sort of thing. The series if primarily for animators and explains how to get movement into your characters but the principles are perfect for sports logo design as it's all about imparting life and excitement into your animal drawings which is exactly how a good sports logo should be. Also look at books on drawing comic art, for similar reasons, Drawing comics the marvel way was always a favourite of mine. It's getting a bit dated now, hell I got my copy nearly 20 years ago and it was a little behind the cutting edge then but the principles are still as tue today even if comic characters have evolved to super-superhuman proportions since it was written. With regards the fins holding the stick, I'd have to say imo adding fingers would be a bad idea, it would be to much anthropomorphism and could just end up looking goofy or confusing the viewer. If you're looking for a great example of how a dolphin would hold something, the previous version of the Miami Dolphins logo had an alternate version where rather than jumping through the hoop the dolphin was on a plain background carrying a football. I'd say check that out and take your cues from there as to how to make an animal with no hands look like its holding something without going to far. Kudos to you for wanting to improve and push yourself as best you can I think it's great and I'm sure you'll learn loads and have a ton of fun doing it, and if there is anything I can do to help out just shout. 9erssteve
  4. I really love this logo, and I'll be honest I don't have a single issue with the underside being completely devoid of detail. In fact it makes perfect sense to me, all the light would be coming from above the turtle so the underside would be in darkness. In saying that though I would like to see the shell highlights continue a little beyond the front flipper. It would help add a little interest beyond that point while still making sense when it comes to natural lighting. They wouldn't have to go all the way to the back, but it would help separate the top part of the shell from the belly, which is a pretty distinct feature on trutles. 9erssteve
  5. Yeah it was little used as the league bombed the idea after it was discovered a neo-Nazi group had a very similar logo! Design wise not bad, but in the real world it would be a bad idea... a REALLY bad idea. 9erssteve
  6. Ok I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a few assumptions about the way you designed your dolphin logo, and why you're not as happy with the finished article as you'd hoped you be. You can then let me know if I'm right, and then we'll see if we cant get you over the "mediocrity" hump you talked about. When you started the logo the first thing you did was pick up your pencil and start drawing your logo right? You got your first draft down on paper as quick as you could and then started tweaking it from there. But no matter how many things you tweaked it just never felt quite right did it? Am I anywhere close? I'm not a betting man, but I'd be willing to stake a few quid that I am. If I am you've done a pretty good job considering but you're never gonna get results you're truly happy with working that way. And I'll tell you why... You're missing a VITAL stage of the process out! Right now it appears you're drawing what you THINK a dolphin looks like then simplifying it to create a logo. What you need to do is study what dolphins ACTUALLY look like and simplify from there! RESEARCH is the key to ANY top quality piece of design be it logo, product or otherwise. That's ESPECIALLY true with animal logos and even more so if you're going for the minor league cartoon style. You have to know what makes a dolphin a dolphin (or whatever your subject is) before you can caricature it, or distil it down to it's simplest forms. Why? Because what YOU THINK makes a dolphin in your mind may vary DRAMATICALLY to what I or someone else pictures a dolphin as in their mind. But if you work from real references to begin with you'll get a much clearer idea of what the essential elements are and what parts to emphasize and what parts to down play. An artist wouldn't try to do a caricature of a famous actor without reference material, say a photo or if they're really lucky having the person there to model for them. Why would you try to do the same thing with an animal but do it without reference material? It's the same process and uses exactly the same principles. Research, it's not sexy, sometimes it's not a ton of fun when all you want to do is draw your logos, but it's 100% NECESSARY and will improve your work 10 fold! If you, or anyone really wants to improve their logo work it's the MOST important thing you can do. Study photos of your subject, collect other logos of the same subject so you can see what you think works and MORE IMPORTANTLY what you'd do DIFFERENTLY. If someone else has already made a mistake it saves you the time of making it yourself, learn from other peoples, but most importantly LEARN about what you're drawing. If you do that you'll be able to communicate the subtleties of your subject that really capture it's character and THAT Is what makes for first class design. 9erssteve
  7. The problem is Redskins IS NOT a term native americans (which I believe is another one) used to describle THEMSELVES. If it was there would be no issue, or perhaps less of an issue. But it's not a term that was in their lexicon and it only came about in the white mans vocabulary as a derogatory slur. But if you're confident in your logic go pitch the LA N***ers as the new expansion team and see how you get on. That's also a word that was popular with white settlers at the time and one African Americans never used to descibe themselves (until recently, and misguidedly if you ask me). Chief and Brave while toeing the line can at least with a relatively clear conscience be considered as respectful tips of the hat to the tribes people who came before, warriors too. Using an actual tribe name, with permission, is genuine tribute but a 200 odd year old slur, I'm sorry I dont care what the intent is, it's continued use is misguided to say the least.
  8. I never said it was a reason to buy one, just that it was the reason for it and the trades existence. They're two very different things. I personally go with option two and have no problem with it at all, but the issue with a grat many of the other options you list is that they involve waiting, and lack of patience is another reason the counterfiet trade exists. The vast majority of fans could probably over time save up and get a genuine authentic, but with player turnover in sports at an all time high, will the player you want still be on the team by the time you've saved the cash? Not how I'd go but that's how some justify it I'm sure. I agree about the speed with which "hot" players jerseys become avaiable, it's essentially what I was saying about patience, but still believe if you could get a Nike Limited jersey for $90 instead of $120 a lot of people would be more inclined to go for that than a poorly made authentic for $60 especially when you see how inaccurate some are. Again it's about moving people to legit product not getting them to invest in the highest level of the legit product right away. That might help, but the ideal solution would have been not setting up shop in a part of the world that has a total disregard for ANY form of copyright law. China has a fake WHITE HOUSE for crying out loud, they've ripped off ENTIRE DISTRICTS from countries ALL OVER THE WORLD and when it was pointed out to them in court that architecture is also protected the court system over there essentially said, we're China we can do what we like. If they're like that with famous buildings from around the world how the hell are you supposed to stop them copying what are essentially over priced t-shirts? 9erssteve
  9. Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made? What's more, companies can be pressured into improving the conditions of their factories and the integrity of their supply chain. Nike has not exactly turned their factories into day-spas... but they have done a lot more than you can expect of counterfeiters. That would be a neat trick as a large portion of the counterfiet good on the market (and I mean all fake good not just football and hockey jerseys) are made in exaclty the same factories as the real thing. Do some reading on the fake trade the evidence is all there. 9erssteve
  10. No I DID NOT suggest they deserve it. All I did was point out there is a tipping point, you push the price to high you leave yourself open to it happening. The fact it's gotten easier to copy work is just another factor in that tipping point. The fact that graphics software adn knowledge is now more prevelant has it's bonuses as well as it's down sides, this forum being a bonus. If creating graphics hadn't become so much easier in recent years 95% of the people on this forum wouldn't be here and wouldn't have an interest in the subject. Sadly with the ease of creation comes the ease of theft, again not condoning it just pointing out it's the flip side to reason why we're all here and love and enjoy the subject matter this site is dedicated to. But all of this BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION comes down to the fact that people are unwilling to pay what Nike or other manufacturers want for their top end products. The reason they dont want pay is because people KNOW how much these things cost to produce and the mark ups arre frankly obscene. There's blame to be had on both sides if we look hard enough for it, if Nike kept production in the US where IP laws are more stringently followed producing counterfiet goods would be harder, but in order to maximise profit they took all the manufacturing work out to Asia where it's well known they have ZERO regard for copyright law. You seem to be acting as if the manufacturers are blamless in all this, they're not. They KNEW the region's disregard for copyright law when they set up their factories there but DID IT ANYWAY. Sleep with dogs you'll get fleas. At the end of the day a price cut would and will solve the issue faster than trying to go the legal route, price the crap knock-off out the market by making the real deal more affordable and problem solved. It's pretty much fact, and it wouldn't take a HUGE cut either that's the sad thing here. The truth is as things stand the amount of money being lost to the counterfieters must be within Nike or anyone elses tolerance levels otherwise we'd have far more drastic action from them than we've seen up until this point, including amoung other things price realignments.
  11. Maybe maybe not. But that's not really important. There are a lot of items I'd like to have and I wish the producers would lower the price. I absolutely fail to see how a price that is perceived as too high (and, FWIW I agree) justifies IP theft. Yeah, they are overpriced. Fortunately, they are also a luxury item that I really do not need to have in order to 1) survive and 2) be happy. I am sending a message to the leagues by not buying their over-priced items. If they were more appropriately priced, I may buy one occasionally. But I don't guy buy some goofy-looking (or, in some cases, pretty decent looking) knock off to "send a message" (that's not the reason anyone buys them...it's to save a buck). There is a process. A creative design effort, etc. It absolutely drives me nuts that people just wait around for someone to do the work and then essentially "photocopy" that work and make money off of it. How someone finds that anything other than "wrong" truly escapes me. Yes, I agree that the prices are too high. But it does not justify the support of IP theft. Greed? Is there no greed involved when leaches copy someone else's work and sell it as their own. The buyer is rewarding laziness and greed. As for "blaming themselves", so the manufacturers are essentially like the woman that gets raped...she was on her own and was wearing a short skirt, so we blame the victim (and please think this through...I am not equating IP theft with rape...but I am pointing out that the IP owner is the victim of counterfeiting and blaming the victim is pretty lazy) What the !!!! Did you just try to compare RAPE VICTIMS and IP theft? Even with the caveat "I'm not equating" thrown in there as an after thought you ARE equating them as YOU brought them up in the same bloody sentence. The two are not even close and NOWHERE did I even insinuate anything close to that you cretin. NOWHERE did I CONDONE IP theft. NOWHERE. I gave the REASON for it's existence and a solution that would work FAR QUICKER than trying to shut down factories in China where they have ZERO REGARD FOR IP LAWS OF ANY KIND. I DID NOT say that purchasing a counterfiet jersey was ok because the price is high, I just pointed out why the opportunity for counterfieting exists. If you cant see that counterfieting exists because people are priced out the market that's your issue, but clearly it's one amoung MANY FAR MORE SERIOUS ISSUES if you think for one second what I said and your ill thought through metaphor have ANY bearing on one another! Authentic Jersey's are a luxury item, and as such will have a higher price tag... but push that tag to high and you leave yourself open to being ripped off. Is it right? No... BUT it's something the IP owners CAN AND DO CONTROL. You're analouge is frankly disgusting and if anyone needs to THINK THIS THROUGH it's yourself.
  12. This whole thread/argument could be put to bed in one fell swoop if the MANUFACTURERS would do ONE simple thing... LOWER THE PRICE. As has been stated on this page $300 for a freaking shirt is practically unjustifiable. I dont care how much "innovation" or "technology" is involved at the end of the day it's a mesh jersey with some numbers stitched on, it's NOT worth $300+. That right there is WHY counterfiets exist. No other reason. If AUTHENTICS cost $150 or less MORE would be sold, and there would be less of a market for counterfiet jerseys. It's simple greed that's fueling the whole cycle. I'd be really interested to know just how much more expesive it is to produce a Nike Limited jersey over a Gameday Replica, and likewise how much more expensive it is to produce an Elite over a Limited, cos I'll bet a $ to pinch of Snuff it's PENNIES difference yet the difference in retail price is MASSIVE. If Nike, or any other manufacturer wanted to shut down counterfieting over night lowering their costs is all they'd have to do. I firmly believe it wouldn't even affect their bottom line as the increase in sales brought about by people who could now easily afford to buy more would more than ensure that their profits stayed healthy. Yes counterfeiting is illegal, but manufacturers have made the rod for thier own backs by ramping up the price of merchandise ludacrously in the last 10 to 15 years so they've no one to blame but themselves. They cant in clear conscience effectively ripp off the paying customer then cry foul when someone does it to them, that's the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.
  13. I never said gold would have been my first choice... but at least it would have been a choice! And that's my biggest issue here. Right now it's like someone couldn't make up their mind said "I want both" and designers came up with the LEAST sucessful way they could think of to do that in order to put the client off. Only it's backfired horrendously and the Jags went for it! Gold would work, sure people would probably have said "why gold, black would have made more sense" but at least it wouldn't have been the horrific mess we currently have. If they really have to keep the fade then at least make the front gloss as well, the fact it's matte just looks terrible with the gloss decal and the natural refelction of the metalic gold, it's a clustercuss of compound clashes, I honestly dont think they could have created a more disjointed design had that been there intention from the beginning.
  14. This just reaffrims my long standing belief that there's no place for gradients in football! That might be "gradientist" or "gradiphobic" but I dont care so far I've NEVER seen a gradient look good on anything football related and I stick by that sentiment. Also you'd think they might have shown that graphic to the poor spray-monkey who painted the helmets cos not only do none of the helmets match, they also dont match the graphic which has the agle of the fade going completely the other way, by that I mean the point the fade stops on the graphic is around 11 o clock while on the actual helmets it's anywhere from 1 to 2 o clock depending on which helmet you see. If they'd just gone for one or the other, black OR gold, this set would have been a dramatic upgrade, but their indecision over which to go with looks like EXACTLY THAT, the helmets look half finished! IMO it doesn't look "cool" or "clever" or like the Jag is "stalking from the shadows" or whatever. It looks like they couldn't make up their mind and it's half done, especially with the front being matte! It looks like the primer is showing! Nearly a week on I still cant believe they screwed the pooch so badly with the helmet... still SMH.
  15. Upon first seeing this that was my reaction too! The whole thing reeks of clip art. Way to much finicky detail which will be murder to reproduce at smaller sizes, crazy variance in line weight with no real ryhme or reason. It looks like it was cobbled together from photos found on a google image search then bashed though live trace and finished off with pretty generic block serif text with as many outlines as it could physically handle plus one more to make it cool! All in all not a terribly impressive logo.