Southeast mo. state considers mascot change

[yh]

Southeast Missouri State University, a D1-AA football school and D1 basketball school in Cape Girardeau, is presently considering whether to drop the name Indians for its mens athletic teams and Otahkians (name of a Native American Princess) for its women's teams. The school has not used a "human" mascot in its logo nor has it dressed an official human mascot for sporting events for several years (however some unofficial student groups have worn war paint, etc. in recent years). While the school administrators state that local Native American groups have been consulted and approve of the manner in which the school uses the names, they have decided to consider a change for reasons I hadn't yet heard in the many debates posed on the issue of Native Americans as team names.

Apparently the national alumni association and the present student government organization are citing two reasons for considering the change. Their first stated concern is that having a Native American name invites derogatory and disrespectful taunts from the fans of opposing teams, so even though the school itself is attempting to respect Native Americans, they are at the same time inviting others to ridicule them. Interesting angle.

The second stated reason for making a change is that the University's agreement not to depict a human mascot impairs the school's visibility as it attempts to build a higher-caliber athletic department. They feel that a mascot that could be used in promotional materials and on tv broadcasts will help market the athletic department and the school in general.

Now, whether these articulated grounds for change are really just backdoor routes to dump a controversial nickname is subject to debate, but I thought that they were certainly interesting angles that I hadn't heard before. I know the Native American mascot issue has been beaten to innumerable deaths on this board and its predecessors in the past, however I felt that these particular angles were novel and might be interesting to share.

[Ez Street]

well not to mock anyone but, i think COWBOYS is a derogatory name. Simply because it might invite others to ridicule them with "YEE HAW", "Hillbilly" and "Inbred" references. The Cowboy is an improtant part of american history and should be treated with respect. So i think we should petition the Dallas Cowboys, Oklahoma State, Wyoming and numerous other teams the change their Mascot.

Look all sarcasim aside, this issue is rediculous. Names like "REDSKINS" are bad in my opinon. But "BRAVES", "CHIEFS", and "INDIANS" are not. Are there not more pressing issues in society than what a team's macot is. How about making sure your children have an education, food, and a loving enviroment. That's for everyone not just Native Americans. BTW, i'm not picking on them i just don't think it's a relevant matter.

[Phil]

Ez Street makes a good point, but I don't know... SEMSU seems to have different motivation other than "the PC folk are forcing us to".

The part about the high-caliber athletic dept. needing a visible mascot is kinda bunk IMO, especially from the logo angle. The KC Chiefs, Atlanta Braves, Florida St. Seminoles and others have managed to make names for themselves without using actual human native imagery. Granted it might be easier with a different nickname, but it's been proven to be possible.

Having said all that, as long as they change it to something reasonable and cool, I have no complaints.

[Brian in Boston]

Well, you just knew that I'd be putting my "two-cents" in here.

I've got some problems with what's been bandied about in this thread. Here's why...

Ez Street... you're certainly entitled to your opinion on this subject. I wouldn't have it any other way. However, if you truly don't consider the Native American naming issue to be a "relevant matter", then why bother engaging in a debate about it? Why not simply choose to ignore such an "irrelevant" and "rediculous" (sic) topic?

Also, introducing "hot-button" topics (i.e. youth education, youth nutrition and the importance of establishing nurturing environments for children) into the Native American sports identity debate is a "smokescreen" at best, disingenuous at worst. This isn't an issue pitting child welfare versus Native American sports identities, and you know it. You're also aware that even the activists who are opposed to Native American sports team identities don't claim that their issue is more important than those that you've outlined. To imply otherwise, as you have done, only serves to cloud the issue at hand: whether or not SEMSU has the right to determine their own course with regarding to changing the identity package of their athletic teams. Please, let's stick to the subject that yhollander introduced, shall we?

The more disturbing trend that I see cropping up in this thread, is the implication that organizations such as SEMSU are engaged in hidden agendas rife with ulterior motives if/when they choose to drop Native American-themed sports identity packages. Witness yhollander's closing thoughts on the subject:

"Now, whether these articulated grounds for change are really just backdoor routes to dump a controversial nickname is subject to debate..."

"Articulated"? As opposed to what? The school's "actual" grounds for change? Your implication is that the institution and its leaders shouldn't be taken at their word. "Backdoor routes"? That terminology's a bit loaded, don't you think? As if to imply that the school has something to hide, i.e. their "real" reasons for changing the name.

Then there's SyPhi's comments:

"The part about the high-caliber athletic dept. needing a visible mascot is kind of bunk IMO..."

"... as long as they change it to something reasonable and cool, I have no complaints."

So, at least one of SEMSU's reasons for changing their athletic identity is met with open skepticism by SyPhi. We can presume that their "bunk" must be hiding the real motive behind the identity change. Still, if their new identity strikes SyPhi as "reasonable", he'll have no problems with it.

My point is this: Who the hell are we to question why an institution is doing something? Who the hell are we to cast aspersions on their actions and motives? Even if we were to find out that SEMSU was making the identity change as a result of lobbying on the part of Native American activists, isn't it SEMSU's right to make that decision? More importantly, must we always assume that any institutions that drop Native American-themed identity packages are doing so as a result of pressure from Native Americans? Isn't it possible that an institution could come to the decision on their own? Finally, who the hell are we to lecture these institutions on whether or not they should keep their current identity package... or, whether their new identity package is "reasonable"? The choice is their's to make.

The bottom line is this: If an institution bows to pressure from Native American groups to change their name, then they are judged as having "caved in" to the special interests and having "sold out" their fans, alumni, etc. However, if an institution unilaterally announces that they are making a change of their own volition, it is insinuated that they are still bowing to the interests of activists. These institutions can't win with some of you guys.

Brian in Boston

[Phil]

Then there's SyPhi's comments:

"The part about the high-caliber athletic dept. needing a visible mascot is kind of bunk IMO..."

"... as long as they change it to something reasonable and cool, I have no complaints."

So, at least one of SEMSU's reasons for changing their athletic identity is met with open skepticism by SyPhi. We can presume that their "bunk" must be hiding the real motive behind the identity change. Still, if their new identity strikes SyPhi as "reasonable", he'll have no problems with it.

I said it's "bunk" because teams go with non-human mascots all the time. I'm not saying they're trying to cover something up, I'm saying they're misguided in their opinion. Please don't twist my words, Brian.

I am also not saying that it's bad to change because of Native American pressure. In saying that I believed SEMSU had other reasons for changing than the PC folk forcing them to, I was responding to EZ Street's assuming they were.

And when I say reasonable, I don't mean reasonable as in "Is the Redskins name reasonable" or something like that, I'm just saying that in my opinion, I prefer non Canton Ice Patrol-ish logos. Non-Toledo Storm-ish is "reasonable".

I know you have strong opinions regarding the PC scene Brian. I understand that.

"Who the heck are we to lecture these institutions on whether or not they should keep their current identity package... or, whether their new identity package is "reasonable"? The choice is their's to make."

-Ultimately, yes, but we're the Sports Logos board. This is what we do. We criticize, praise, and question all the time.

You were wrong to assume that I said anything about "caving in" to PC pressure... however, that is fine. This is a touchy subject, so I'll let it go at that.

My previous comments, Cliff's Notes version:

I don't think they did it because of PC pressure. Good by me, as long as they get a cool identity and don't go the way of the Blue Jays or worse, the Canton Ice Patrol.

[hockeyzealot]

First I'd like to commend Brian on providing a solid counterpoint to the previous posts. It really mystifies me how people can get so wound up over these kinds of things.

From the sounds of it SEMSU is looking for a change...and whether you choose to acknowledge it or not...change can be good! SEMSU is looking to take their athletic program to the next level, and a change in identity could very well be the boost they need.

If only my university (the University of Southern Maine) could understand that. Currently we suffer from increadible apathy towards our athletic program and I think part of that is due to the way in which the identity package has been handled. Not only do we have inconsistant uniforms and logos, but our mascot, the husky, is currently used by two other major New England schools (Northeastern and UConn) not to mention a host of other recognized progams like University of Washington and St. Cloud. Even in state our school is overshadowed by the University of Maine whose program is not only larger, but its identity package much more uniqe and professional.

Would USM be getting the same response on this board as SEMSU if it decided to change...probably not...even though the only difference, as far as I can tell, is that SEMSU has the ill fortune of having a mascot associated with a politically sensitive subject. But just because there is the association, doesn't mean that the change is in fact political in nature...such accusations are indicative of a much deeper psychosis.

[yh]

Brian, you're a good soul, but you read too much into my post.  I am not taking a stand one way or another on the issue.  Reading one newspaper article doesn't entitle me to that kind of license.  I was merely reporting the issue that I read because I found the reasons put forth by the alumni and student group (the university administration is not yet involved; I don't think I made that clear) to be different than reasons articulated by other schools that decided to change their mascots.  I was merely asking a question to solicit the opinions of others on whether or not they thought it might be a smokescreen in order to change the mascot and sidestep any huge debate regarding whether the school is or is not disrespecting the Native Americans.  I did not mean to imply that is what I think is going on.

[DAJackson7]

Growing up not ten minutes from SEMO (not SEMSU, sorry guys) this whole thing is ludicrous. The chief of a local tribe said that he has no problem with the name and that the university could come up with a good visual depiction of it and a mascot if they would dress him in buckskins, not prairie war dressings. He was also a graduate of SEMO and said personally he wished the school would embrace the name. It all makes sence too seeing as how the region just celebrated the bicentennial of the lewis and clark expedition stopping through here and had people dressed as Indians during that ceremony and no one minded. Besides the school is in a financial crush and how much money would it take to add this new logo to everything when they just dropped four programs? On the other side though their new logo is a block red S and E with a double outline of white and black. Thats it. Maybe someone on here can make something to show them how to do something with the name.

Go Racers. (my alma mater, SEMO's rival)