Southeast Missouri Gets new name

[habsfannova]

The thing is, though, if you don't like PC, it's fine, it's just that it's individual businesses chosing these things, not the governments or other groups. It's all about marketing, they don't want a boycott on their hands.

Also realize it's a profit play, NOT a PC play. Changing uniforms/logos/names always nets a school more money.

[DAJackson7]

Oh yeah it's a money thing. This way they can "market the identity more broadly", never knew Florida State had a problem marketing themselves.

[habsfannova]

I didn't mean they have a problem presently, but any time you change a uniform, you make more money off of it.

Think about it too, it's the perfect solution...

1)Mollifies Protesters

2)Able to deflect traditionalist's blame to the same protesters (Not our fault, they wanted it...)

3)Make more money of off merchandising.

[pcgd]

completly off subject, but when I went ot that site, the mastercard logo that poped up is strangely similar to my webpage redesign that i posted earlier this week. I know espn tends to switch those up so I don't know how many of you saw it. For comparison: My Webpage considering I put mine together in an hour, its about as good as theirs. Anyway, i felt it so amazing it bore mentioning.

peace,

pc

[MilTownMVP]

Well its like the protest over One Nation Under God, the amount of people against that line in less then 10% yet they are vocal and often get their way cuase of it.

Then why not have it say "One Nation Under Allah" or "One Nation Under Buddah?" After all, it's all the same God, so no one should be offended, right?

And stop acting like conservatives never use vocal minorities to their advantage either. The farmers/dairy industry here in Wisconsin have been doing it for years.

[MilTownMVP]

Swine take flight worldwide, as I agreew ith Tank on this one...

PC is evil. PC hides the truth, polishes the actual facts of living, and forces us all to live under a guise of 'truth.'

PC is people who can't cope, who can't deal, who can't get overthemselves. It supports the self-important cry babies, and shames long standing tradition.

I'm not saying that there should be sports teams named the "n-words" or such, but harmless things liek Braves, indians, cheifs, etc should be left well enough alone.

Have an inner-city team with the mascot of "Honkeys" and have their mascot be a goofy white guy with red hair and glasses..... i'd freakin BUY THE MERCHANDISE.

PC is the worst thing about america.

But you also have to look at the other side of the fence. A lot of people use PC as an excuse to hide their true feelings by acting like people could only have political and not moral objections to what they're doing. That's where "political" correctness comes from.

There's also those who use PC as a scapegoat so that it looks like they were "forced" into making changes. The Wizards are a perfect example. The Bullets were almost dead last in mechandise sales when they suddenly decided to "give in to PC pressure" and unviel trendy new unis that shot them to the top of the list.

As for your Honkeys argument... it's not the same thing because what white person is honestly offended by that? A more accurate comparison is if they named a team the Slave Owning Whites or Squwa Raping White Devils.

Truth be told, the only name I have a problem with is Redskins, since it really does have a hateful connotation. In fact, I've known Native Americans (real NA's... not white people whose great great great grandfather was a Cherokee chief) who wore nothing but Braves and Chiefs stuff. But to deny that certain things about NA imagery is offensive (Chief Wahoo, tomahawk chop) is offensive is asinine. Being completely insesitive is just as bad as being overly sensitive.

[Phil]

What would the CCSLC be without a PC debate every few months?

Can we please avoid it altogether? We haven't had a PC debate yet that hasn't turned personal or into an argument. PC is a fact of life. Some people get offended by certain things, and they get catered to. This is can be great or not so great, depending on your perspective. Now let's move on and skip the mandatory hurt feelings and arguments, shall we?

[Saintsfan]

There's also those who use PC as a scapegoat so that it looks like they were "forced" into making changes. The Wizards are a perfect example. The Bullets were almost dead last in mechandise sales when they suddenly decided to "give in to PC pressure" and unviel trendy new unis that shot them to the top of the list.

Signing Michael JHordan a couple of years didn't hurt either!

Why is everyone getting so edgy about debating issues all of a sudden? There are plenty of things that set people off on this board, and I have noticed that most of the political debates since I have been backed have been noticeable by staying on issues and away from personal attacks.

For the record, it is never my intention to upset people. I very very rarely ever say anything for effect, I almost always say what I believe. No-one should ever take offense with me disagreeing with them, it is never anything personal.

[Phil]

Why is everyone getting so edgy about debating issues all of a sudden? There are plenty of things that set people off on this board, and I have noticed that most of the political debates since I have been backed have been noticeable by staying on issues and away from personal attacks.

For the record, it is never my intention to upset people. I very very rarely ever say anything for effect, I almost always say what I believe. No-one should ever take offense with me disagreeing with them, it is never anything personal.

It's kind of like "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me", except in this case it's "topic spins out of control once, shame on the board, same topic spins out of control twice, shame on the mods".

I think I've seen it happen 4 or 5 times now in my 3 years around this community, and if I can't remember a single one that didn't end up negatively.

Yes, the community's matured somewhat, but in many other ways, it hasn't. Chris or Tank can feel free to overrule me on this one, but I just don't see it.

Feel free to comment on the Southeast Missouri identity change, but let's stay away from the PC debate.

[Saintsfan]

Why is everyone getting so edgy about debating issues all of a sudden? There are plenty of things that set people off on this board, and I have noticed that most of the political debates since I have been backed have been noticeable by staying on issues and away from personal attacks.

For the record, it is never my intention to upset people. I very very rarely ever say anything for effect, I almost always say what I believe. No-one should ever take offense with me disagreeing with them, it is never anything personal.

It's kind of like "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me", except in this case it's "topic spins out of control once, shame on the board, same topic spins out of control twice, shame on the mods".

I think I've seen it happen 4 or 5 times now in my 3 years around this community, and if I can't remember a single one that didn't end up negatively.

Yes, the community's matured somewhat, but in many other ways, it hasn't. Chris or Tank can feel free to overrule me on this one, but I just don't see it.

Feel free to comment on the Southeast Missouri identity change, but let's stay away from the PC debate.

fair enough (frankly I think this debate was dieing anyway!) And far be it from me to argue with the mods (well about mod issues anyway!!), or tell them how to do there jobs!

Just its important not to stifle debate!

[habsfannova]

I think this is kinda how it works....

MONTREAL CANADIENS BOARDROOM:

Guy 1: How is merchendising?

Guy 2: Bad. Not horrible, but I think it could use something new. I mean, we've had the same freaking type of logo for more than 80 years. Those 12 year olds aren't seeing any rap artists wearing our jerseys.

Guy 1: Yeah, good luck passing that through. You'd probably get beat up anywhere you go.

Guy 2: Yeah.......hmmm.....wait a second....Get your brother on the phone.....

Two mornings later, in the newspaper....

PROTEST AT BELL CENTRE

Man Calls "Canadiens" name Anglo stereotype

CP Report

MONTREAL-A man today led a protest condemning the name of Club de Hockey Canadien as insulting to Sepratists in Quebec. "We've had it with this "Canadiens" nonsense." He said to protesters with signs......

Two mornings after that, in newspaper....

MONTREAL REVEALS NEW LOGO, NAME

Legendary team to be known as the "JACKHAMMERS" and sport new Purple, Black, Red, and Gold jerseys.

IN RELATED STORY....Brother of Jackhammers orginization thrown out of tavern and injured.....

EDIT: Whoops, just saw the above, but I'm not really debating, just trying to be humourous.

[MC Buffalo]

One of the most frustrating things about "PC" is the stupid race issue. All these people who call themselves "African-Americans?" Hey guess what, the vast and overwhelming majority of you were born in America. That makes you an AMERICAN. You're not African. That would be like me saying I'm Scottish-American because my ancestors from centuries ago spawned in Scotland. Seriously, do you ever hear of anyone else in other countries doing this? Is there such a thing as an African-German? Or a Swedish-Spaniard?

I am an avid "anti PC" warrior, but I think this specifically is a weak argument. I know plenty of people who were born and raised in the US who refer to themselves as Italian American or Irish American, so I have no real problem with someone referring to themselves as African American.

It certainly does happen in other countries as well, look not further than our neighbors to the north. How many times have you heard to an NHL player referred to as a French Canadian?

[Phil]

One of the most frustrating things about "PC" is the stupid race issue. All these people who call themselves "African-Americans?" Hey guess what, the vast and overwhelming majority of you were born in America. That makes you an AMERICAN. You're not African. That would be like me saying I'm Scottish-American because my ancestors from centuries ago spawned in Scotland. Seriously, do you ever hear of anyone else in other countries doing this? Is there such a thing as an African-German? Or a Swedish-Spaniard?

I am an avid "anti PC" warrior, but I think this specifically is a weak argument. I know plenty of people who were born and raised in the US who refer to themselves as Italian American or Irish American, so I have no real problem with someone referring to themselves as African American.

It certainly does happen in other countries as well, look not further than our neighbors to the north. How many times have you heard to an NHL player referred to as a French Canadian?

Carefully now gdffl86... make sure to read the whole thread before making too many comments.

[STL FANATIC]

I strongly disagree with limiting this debate, SyPhi.

If people stop debating this issue and start flame wars, then close the thread.

As long as it's a debate on the issue, let it be.

[Phil]

I strongly disagree with limiting this debate, SyPhi.

If people stop debating this issue and start flame wars, then close the thread.

As long as it's a debate on the issue, let it be.

You know what? I've got a better idea. Just hang on a few seconds.

...

Done! See the new official thread of the Political Correctness Debate to get your pro- or anti-PC fixes!

[MC Buffalo]

One of the most frustrating things about "PC" is the stupid race issue. All these people who call themselves "African-Americans?" Hey guess what, the vast and overwhelming majority of you were born in America. That makes you an AMERICAN. You're not African. That would be like me saying I'm Scottish-American because my ancestors from centuries ago spawned in Scotland. Seriously, do you ever hear of anyone else in other countries doing this? Is there such a thing as an African-German? Or a Swedish-Spaniard?

I am an avid "anti PC" warrior, but I think this specifically is a weak argument. I know plenty of people who were born and raised in the US who refer to themselves as Italian American or Irish American, so I have no real problem with someone referring to themselves as African American.

It certainly does happen in other countries as well, look not further than our neighbors to the north. How many times have you heard to an NHL player referred to as a French Canadian?

Carefully now gdffl86... make sure to read the whole thread before making too many comments.

Hey Sy,

I did read the whole thread, and I was just stating that there is a huge difference between being either for or against the changing of team name due to the sensibilities of a group of citizens (or in my opinion the unbelievable amount of free time that so many members of the ACLU seem to have), and being sick of people using African-American to describe themselves. I myself do not consider myselft Cherokee-American, I am an American, but I think it's great to see someone who is very proud of their heritage, proud enough to fly the flag of Ireland (under the stars and stripes of course).

I am interested in why you told me to read the whole thread first, what did you think I misunderstood that made my post irrelevant, wrong, misguided or the like?

[Brian in Boston]

What would the CCSLC be without a PC debate every few months?

Can we please avoid it altogether? We haven't had a PC debate yet that hasn't turned personal or into an argument. PC is a fact of life. Some people get offended by certain things, and they get catered to. This is can be great or not so great, depending on your perspective. Now let's move on and skip the mandatory hurt feelings and arguments, shall we?

Just my personal opinion here, Syphi... but no. I'm not willing to simply end a debate because you - or any of the other mods for that matter - dictate that it should be so.

Don't get me wrong. I respect the extra effort that the moderators put in on behalf of the CCSLB community running smoothly. However, I have to say that lately an attempt has been made to stifle any sort of debate, regardless of subject matter or how the debaters are conducting themselves, AWFULLY QUICKLY. I'll take it a step further and say that you have been the leading force behind these attempts. Frankly, I think that they're terribly misguided.

As of late, you've been "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". You've been so sensitive to the ideal of "everyone playing nice", that I personally believe that you've read hurtful/spiteful agendas into nothing more than a few opinionated posts. Has the CCSLB community been the sight of debates on a host of topics that have ended up spinning out of control? Absolutely. Does that mean that the opinions of CCSL Board members, as well as their freedom to express said opinions, should be dismissed "out of hand". Absolutely NOT. You want to talk about censorship (ironically, as this thread has touched upon)... well, if you ask me, we're inching perilously close towards censorship on these boards.

Perhaps you've been at the moderating game too long, and are therefore no longer capable of dispassionately exercising your duties, if you truly believe that debate in this community leads to "mandatory hurt feelings and arguments". If you don't truly believe this, then why use such a phrase to describe the situation out here?

"MANDATORY hurt feelings and arguments"? That's a bit much, SyPhi. Are there individuals who are prone to taking things to heart a bit more than others? Yes. Are they prone to lashing out with a bit more vitriol in posting a response? Yes. So, why not address your concerns about where these individuals might lead a debate - or, lead away from it - via a private message? If they persist in engaging in hateful and personal attacks that add nothing to the debate, why not again address them personally... this time to tell them that they are stepping over the line and must change their method of debating or risk repercussions. After the second warning, said individuals engage in less-than-constructive CCSL Board behavior at the risk of being disciplined as Chris sees fit.

Will such a policy take more effort on the moderators part? I would expect so. Is it easier to simply say, "Okay guys: we're not going to allow any threads to get started on - or drift towards - topics such as politics... or political correctness... or religion, etc."? Probably. However, it's going to become awfully staid around here awfully quickly. So why not judge the behavior of people within a thread, as well as the content of that thread, on a thread-by-thread basis. To subscribe to the "fool me once... fool me twice" litmus test across the board is an over-reaction.

Bottom line? If you expect the worst out of people, you inevitably train them to give you nothing but the worst.

Brian in Boston

[Phil]

Hey BiB... I did rethink it... and there's a new thread where everyone can debate the PC issue to death.

As for stifling debate and stamping out any spark of debate quickly... well, I can't think of too many instances of that, but I'll take your word for it. Usually we only step in after something has gotten out of hand or is perilously close (in which case I most often try to steer us back on topic. Sometimes, according to my judgment, I test the "ounce of prevention" theory, although apparently this is not appreciated, and thus I will reconsider any such use thereof in the future.

I dismiss no opinion of any CCSLC member. If I have shown evidence of this, I apologize. The truth is that everyone has a right to an opinion, regardless of any variable. However occasionally there are opinions regarding issues that I do not believe need be discussed on a message board. For instance, I believe discussion of an extremely overt or graphical sexual nature have no place on a board where minors are present.

In the specific instance of the phrase "mandatory hurt feelings and arguments", I probably should have added the word "hurtful" in front of arguments, however either by oversight or subconscious assumption of a universal understanding of my message, I did not.

My personal experience with the PC debate, from pre-Fanhome days to the present, has not been good. I can recall no specific instances, however I do have a general recollection of having required significant moderatorial intervention. Perhaps that had rendered me incapable of viewing the topic from a dispassionate perspective, and I suppose that's not a good thing. I apologize, and I will continue to try to ensure that my hatred of when things get out of hand must be balanced by allowing the board to decide it's own direction.

It's not my goal to eliminate conflict altogether. But we were at a point not so long ago where I was getting 3-4 complaints daily because of the amount of it, and that's not right. "Everyone playing nice" is important to me, yes. Enjoying healthy discussion and conflict and having everyone play nice are NOT mutually exclusive.

I do agree that expecting the worst will only lead to my expectations being fulfilled, however if I continually allow the worst to occur, how do I help us come to the understanding that that will not be tolerated? As a moderator, I have little other authority than to edit threads and close threads. I can't warn people or ban people. In no way do I mean to say by this taht I wish to have those tools available to me: that is not for me to decide. I do however mean to say that if I tend to use the 'bleep' button or cut to commercial (to use a TV allegory) more than someone feels I should, that may be because I feel something needs to be done, if only as a temporary solution, and those are the only immediate-effect options available to me.

Maybe I have been at the moderating game too long. Maybe it is time for me to take a back seat and let someone else take over. I expect that call will come from Chris at the appropriate time, and I will gladly step down. Until then, I will continue to moderate the boards as guided by my judgment and perception as well as the input I receive from valued members as yourself.

Again, thanks for your input (it's how I get better as a moderator), and thanks for hearing me out!

[Brian in Boston]

I'll always be willing to hear you - or anyone else - out. That's what a reasoned, civilized exchange of ideas is about.

Frankly, I feel that the ultimate responsibility for maintaining civilized debate in the CCSLB community falls upon the individual members. We must understand the difference between posting our opinions and facts. We must recognize that attempts may well be made to point the differences between facts and opinions out to us if we confuse the two. We have to refrain from allowing our posts to become angrily filled with invective. We must be willing to police ourselves and guarantee that our own posts will be passionately - but not hatefully - composed.

Brian in Boston

[Phil]

I'll always be willing to hear you - or anyone else - out. That's what a reasoned, civilized exchange of ideas is about.

Frankly, I feel that the ultimate responsibility for maintaining civilized debate in the CCSLB community falls upon the individual members. We must understand the difference between posting our opinions and facts. We must recognize that attempts may well be made to point the differences between facts and opinions out to us if we confuse the two. We have to refrain from allowing our posts to become angrily filled with invective. We must be willing to police ourselves and guarantee that our own posts will be passionately - but not hatefully - composed.

Brian in Boston

Absolutely, I completely agree. I'd love to be a part of that forum too!

However as long as there are people who for whatever reason can not or refuse to (and allow me to quote you here, 'cause you have a way of saying it that I just can't match) allow their posts "to become angrily filled with invective", and who are unwilling "to police ourselves and guarantee that our own posts will be passionately - but not hatefully - composed", moderators are somewhat of a necessary inconvenience.

Not that that's the only job of us moderators... we do like to keep things relatively on topic, clean, and the board as free from clutter as we can, which (correct me if I'm wrong here) I believe is in keeping with the desire of the board members... to visit a site that's mostly on topic, clean, and as free from clutter as possible.