IceCap

The official mascot of Clevejacking

My point is this... public money for pro sports is always dubious but at least the Flames as a team are supported and make money. In the grand scheme of things at least that money is going to something that is successful as far as being a business goes. But in nearly thirty years the Coyotes have never once made a profit and have routinely been at the bottom or near the bottom of the NHL's attendance list. Thirty years. Not a dime made. No one there actually cares. @spartacat_12 seemed upset I admitted Nashville could turn it around but still deemed Arizona a failure but like... Nashville hadn't been a failure for an entire generation. Things were bad, yeah, but it wasn't three decades of failure. Like... three decades. Millions of dollars in taxpayer money paid to them already. All for nothing. Nothing that indicates the market is working. Thirty years. How many more years, and how much more money, has to be wasted before we reach his threshold for enough being enough? It's absurd because if the Tempe vote fails like some think it will they'll have to move somewhere. And if that happens you'll have a certain type of person going "they never got a fair chance in Arizona." After thirty years of government subsided failure as a business. They'll say they never got a fair shot. Utterly ing delusional.

If we were five, maybe even ten, years in sure. But it's been thirty years. Thirty. G-ddamn. Years.

Counterpoint- the college football national champs used to get a crystal football that looked like it belonged in grandma's fine china cabinet. And they "upgraded" from that to a glorified beer tap. The XFL trophy is fine.

What killed it? Just the team deciding to go in a different direction?

KC or Milwaukee are at the top of that list. Admiral brought up Cinci but I think Columbus has the whole state on lockdown, and that's probably fine.

No they're not the same franchise. But they're clearly drawing on that legacy. The choice of the name "Senators" and the black, red, and white colour scheme were chosen for that reason. It's like the new Jets. They're the old Thrashers. They're not the old Jets. Still, they homage them with the name, with throwback jerseys, and with general celebrations of Winnipeg's hockey history. No one's saying the current Sens are the old Sens, they're not. It's not some crazy or out there notion for them to lean into that legacy though.

The problem is this has been talked about over and over and over, man. If you wanna know though? Both the LA Kings and Anaheim Ducks are in a pretty good spot. The Vegas Golden Knights are a bunch of schmucks but they seem to have a good fanbase so they're solid. The Dallas Stars have been pretty well run and are supported well. They're good. Nashville had a scare where no one went to games and they almost moved to Hamilton, but a new ownership group committed to Nashville that knew how to both market the team and build a consistent contender set them up as a success. And Tampa Bay's been perhaps the most successful with three Cups, two in the last four years, and a team that seems like it's been contending for over a decade with a dedicated fanbase. If you want to know what Sunbelt teams are "acceptable" then there you go. And the thing that makes them "acceptable" is pretty easy to grasp- they sell ticket and make money. The Sunbelt markets that have been failures and aren't "acceptable" are/were Arizona and Atlanta. Arizona has been a terrible market that hasn't drawn a dime in thirty years, and has never really cared about the team on the whole. They've defaulted on taxes, been unable to pay rent to a city that was subsiding them with taxpayer money, and have been such a shambles that every sports economics not tied to the NHL has gone "I have no idea why this team is still here." Atlanta was also a failure in so much as they didn't get anyone to actually care but they weren't quite in as bad a shape as Phoenix. Still they were in bad enough shape that Gary Bettman sacrificed them to Winnipeg to save the Coyotes. Those are the markets that aren't/weren't "acceptable" and the reason they aren't/weren't is again easy to comprehend. They never made any money. The questionable teams are Carolina and Florida. Both have SCF appearances to their names and Carolina even won one, but outside of those seasons these teams have been pretty bad until recently. Maybe recent success is the beginning of a turnaround, but maybe not. They're weak markets, just not the unquestionable disaster that Arizona is/Atlanta was.

The difference is the Lightning started from scratch in 1992. Ottawa was, from day one, drawing on the legacy of a team that predates the Original Six as a concept.

I'm sorry my answer to that was is boring then. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you asking "which sunbelt teams are acceptable?" We've been litigating that this whole time. And it's not even something you have to have read every post in this thread to get. "The Sunbelt markets that work are acceptable the ones that are failing aren't" isn't some crazy take.

They're still not looking super great business wise. That's a terrible reason to keep a team in a market that's been failing for 30 years. Coming in midway through an ongoing conversation to demand people repeat crap they've been saying for years for your benefit isn't a good look. Read some of the older posts.

Questions that have been answered over and over again. You were acting like it was unfair a team that's failed to draw fans or a profit in thirty years was unfairly picked on and then asked "well what Sunbelt teams are acceptable?" like you were put upon. Anyway I answered both of your questions.

The ones that are successful are acceptable. Jesus H. Christ on a cracker. NOWHERE in this sprawling thread, a monument to the NHL's habitual buffoonery, have I, or anyone else, said that every sunbelt team needs to be gotten rid of. Nowhere. You can check. I've ALWAYS said teams like Tampa, Nashville, Dallas, even Vegas, have proven the Sunbelt experiment could work. But teams like Arizona that have utterly failed need to move. And they need to move to some place with a loyal, dedicated fanbase. Up north. I really don't like that I had to repeat myself to assuage your hurt feelings but whatever.

What we have now just swap out Arizona for Quebec City. Hartford is intriguing but they need a new rink before that can ever be considered.

It's someone's money. Millions of it from Arizona taxpayers. I'm tired of this failure of a franchise and failure of a market getting pass after pass, either from the league and their Sunbelt infatuation, the fans who buy into that narrative because it makes them feel smarter than everyone else, or because they had/have quirky uniforms. Here's the problem with that. Unlike the Phoenix metro area Houston hasn't spent close to thirty years discrediting itself as a NHL market. Now I'll be frank, I think Houston is a bad idea for reasons I talked about earlier and and in a just world they'd go to Quebec City because enough with propping up Sunbelt experiments at the expense of the sport's most loyal fans. But if you must reduce this to Arizona vs Houston then Houston wins easily simply by virtue of Arizona's total and complete and indefensible failure as a market.

So is money but that somehow doesn't make the twenty-seven consecutive seasons in the red and millions upon millions lost any easier to justify.

Imagine being mad a team from Boston lost

It's been almost thirty years my guy

I'm not sold on Houston but even Houston with all of its problems is a better option than whatever the is happening in Arizona.

Ottawa is about halfway between Toronto and Montreal, two of the oldest and most established fanbases in the league. They lost their NHL team in the thirties and got it back in the nineties. That's over fifty years where Ottawa's fandom split between the Leafs and Habs. One of my best friends is from Ottawa. We met in uni (so he's not from a pre-Sens generation) and I asked him early on if he was a Sens fan. He responded like I'd asked him if he ate garbage. He's a Habs fan through and through. Ottawa has a dedicated fanbase but they're fighting over fifty years of engrained fandom from two of the most popular sports teams in Canada on either end. My point is the Sens' brand has had trouble resonating within their market, much less outside of it and it has nothing to do with the logos or colours or jersey designs. Meh. It's been executed just fine. They've had misses (both "3D" logos, the swoosh sweater, the Edge look, the SNES alt) but overall it's as good as you're going to get without going complete cartoony. Where they're at now is fine (I'd swap the S alt out for the Peace Tower but that's it). My contention is that it's not a simple leap from the Canadian Senate to Roman Centurion so many of you want to make it sound like. There are a few hoops it needs to hop through. And that's fine. Like I said it is what it is and it's engrained. But it's also got some flaws that are worth bringing up if we're going to analyze it. Not exactly. You could do that sure, but most Senators got their job either by being "officers" who went nowhere near a front or actual centurions or just guys from rich families. You didn't need to be a decorated military man to get into the Senate, and in fact most weren't.

Ok but you've made your point. If you keep harping on it and derailing discussions further there will be disciplinary measures taking. I'm telling you this as a mod.

There have been official Peace Tower logos from the team that have been pretty good and could serve as the basis for a primary identity. The problem with the Roman theme is that it's a bit obtuse. The thinking is "named after the Canadian Senate -> Canadian Senate is named after the Roman Senate -> some Roman Senators were also military officers who commanded centurions." The identity is further muddled by the mascot Spartacat, a play of Spartacus, who led a rebellion against the Roman state. So he should be the last source of inspiration if you're basing an identity after Roman government/military stuff. But you said fat guys in suits doesn't make for a good identity and the thing is neither do fat guys in togas, which was what most Roman senators during the classical period were. Some were military officers who commanded centurions, but that was a different position from that of Senator, and not all Senators did that. Most got their position by being from rich noble families (nothing ever changes). So the whole connection is pretty flimsy. At least the Peace Tower imagery ties in with the name and city, and is suitably iconic. Look, I gave up this fight a while ago. The Senators have used the Roman theme for so long that it just is what it is, and there's likely no undoing that. I accept it. But if you want to have a discussion on the identity's merits... well it's gotta be pointed out it's not exactly well constructed or totally sensical.

This guy used to be known as SabresRule and was an annoying about this stuff years ago before he was shamed into shutting up with his lukewarm takes. Sad to see he's back doing the same thing.

https://apple.news/AAfiYfiy1SpKkfhxBo4S3_A Bunch of candy ass es in Florida.

Difference was Tampa didn't leave the 2019 playoffs with cap issues and an aging core staring them in the face. They still had some time with that team to turn it around and they made the most of it. Boston feels like this was their last chance. And they acted like it. This was the "all in" season.