Trademark or Copyrighting A Logo

[Mingjai]

I take you've registered some logos before?

No, I just taken enough intellectual property classes to be dangerous.

[sugarloaf]

I take you've registered some logos before?

No, I just taken enough intellectual property classes to be dangerous.

Ah! Now when I send my logo in do they have to compare it to other logos of it's kind to make sure there's nothing else registered that looks like it? Do you know much about how they investigate these kinds of things?

[griffin128]

Forget, the copyright act of 1970-whatever. Pay the $30 like a professional and then you don't get yourself involved in a "who cretaed it first" problem. When you take the easy way out of automatic copyright, all you do is guarantee that you will need a lawyer later when it comes into dispute. Don't be foolish.

Trust me, I own copyrights, I do this for a living, it's only $30 and a one page form, it couldn't be easier.

[sugarloaf]

Forget, the copyright act of 1970-whatever. Pay the $30 like a professional and then you don't get yourself involved in a "who cretaed it first" problem. When you take the easy way out of automatic copyright, all you do is guarantee that you will need a lawyer later when it comes into dispute. Don't be foolish.

Trust me, I own copyrights, I do this for a living, it's only $30 and a one page form, it couldn't be easier.

But what exactly do you submit? Is it a file, a printed logo? If so, how big does the logo need to be on the sheet of paper?

[griffin128]

Start looking here

http://www.copyright.gov/register/visual.html

[ElwoodCuse]

Ah! Now when I send my logo in do they have to compare it to other logos of it's kind to make sure there's nothing else registered that looks like it? Do you know much about how they investigate these kinds of things?

The copyright office website says it takes about four months from the time they receive your submission until the time you get a certificate of registration. So while they don't just rubber-stamp everyone who sends in $30, it's not like the patent office where they really go after you and challenge your application.

And as has been said, don't do the "mail it to yourself" thing. The copyright office specifically warns against this and you might end up having no legal proof that you did anything besides mail yourself something on x date.

[Cola]

Forget, the copyright act of 1970-whatever. Pay the $30 like a professional and then you don't get yourself involved in a "who cretaed it first" problem. When you take the easy way out of automatic copyright, all you do is guarantee that you will need a lawyer later when it comes into dispute. Don't be foolish.

Trust me, I own copyrights, I do this for a living, it's only $30 and a one page form, it couldn't be easier.

But that would just be ridiculous and too expensive to do for every single concept or logo you produced for a customer that may not even get used. I think the laws were updated and placed to make it easier on all of us...what is wrong with abiding by the simple fact that if you put it in a physical medium (drawing, writing) that it's copyrighted?

Seems simple enough to me and any other way is a waste of money and time- unless of course you are talking a huge job.

[griffin128]

Forget, the copyright act of 1970-whatever. Pay the $30 like a professional and then you don't get yourself involved in a "who cretaed it first" problem. When you take the easy way out of automatic copyright, all you do is guarantee that you will need a lawyer later when it comes into dispute. Don't be foolish.

Trust me, I own copyrights, I do this for a living, it's only $30 and a one page form, it couldn't be easier.

But that would just be ridiculous and too expensive to do for every single concept or logo you produced for a customer that may not even get used. I think the laws were updated and placed to make it easier on all of us...what is wrong with abiding by the simple fact that if you put it in a physical medium (drawing, writing) that it's copyrighted?

Seems simple enough to me and any other way is a waste of money and time- unless of course you are talking a huge job.

Obviously, you don't copyright concepts. and if it was a paid job of any size, the client, not you would be registering the copyright.

It really comes down to professional or unprofessional.

[Mingjai]

Obviously, you don't copyright concepts. and if it was a paid job of any size, the client, not you would be registering the copyright.

It really comes down to professional or unprofessional.

A copyright is a copyright, whether registered or unregistered. But I agree--any copyright that has any potential value should be registered just to get the evidentiary benefits.

[oddball]

But that would just be ridiculous and too expensive to do for every single concept or logo you produced for a customer that may not even get used. I think the laws were updated and placed to make it easier on all of us...what is wrong with abiding by the simple fact that if you put it in a physical medium (drawing, writing) that it's copyrighted?

Seems simple enough to me and any other way is a waste of money and time- unless of course you are talking a huge job.

If you have multiple concepts and logos or designs, you put them on a disk and label it "2006 work" and send that in. At least that's how I was told to do it, for multiple pieces of work.

[sugarloaf]

But that would just be ridiculous and too expensive to do for every single concept or logo you produced for a customer that may not even get used. I think the laws were updated and placed to make it easier on all of us...what is wrong with abiding by the simple fact that if you put it in a physical medium (drawing, writing) that it's copyrighted?

Seems simple enough to me and any other way is a waste of money and time- unless of course you are talking a huge job.

If you have multiple concepts and logos or designs, you put them on a disk and label it "2006 work" and send that in. At least that's how I was told to do it, for multiple pieces of work.

But is it $30 per logo or concept or can they do 4-5 logos for that $30?

[griffin128]

Yup, you even get a certificate with your name and eveything. Now, even if it is copyrighted, you, not the government needs to enforce the copyright. Meaning that someone may still just use your work without you knowing, but if you find out, they usually back off quite quick once you tell them that you are the copyright holder.

[sugarloaf]

I'm still a little confused. I'm not saying I've done this but I'm just using it as an example. Let's say you have two logos, you took one logo and modified 30% of it. Since there's some modifications would that be considered a new design/logo or would that fall under copyright infringement?

[griffin128]

Can I ask what you're trying to copyright. Is it a personal project, a paying job? You should wait until it's 100% finished before you go through the copyright process.

[Mingjai]

And by sending it in and waiting till I get confirmation of it, then will it be copyrighted?

I hope these points clear up some of the confusion:

I) You do not need to register to have logo be copyrighted. All you need to do is fix your expression in a tangible medium--i.e., taking a picture with your digital camera, drawing a logo on paper, or illustrating design on your computer. You have a copyright as soon you have done this.

II) All of the rights of copyright attach at "fixation." These rights include the right to exclude others from copying your expression, the right of distribution, the right of public performance and display. You also have a right to any derivative works.

III) Registration does not grant you a copyright. Registration is useful as evidence proving (1) that you are the owner of the copyright and (2) when your ownership rights began. Any copyright potentially worth more than $30 to the owner should be registered. When in doubt, register!

IV) Infringement requires the plaintiff to prove (1) he has a valid copyright, (2) illicit copying by the defendant (usually accomplised by showing that the defendant had access to the mark without actually copying), and (3) improper appropriation--i.e., the defendant "took too much" of the copyrighted work (usually accomplished by showing that the alleged infrining work is substantially similar to the copyrighted work).

V) As you can tell, infringement is not an exact science, and courts are all over the board with what is infringement--especially because these questions involve juries. But only changing 30% of an existing copyright would very likely be found to be infringing.

I hope that helps.

[griffin128]

And by sending it in and waiting till I get confirmation of it, then will it be copyrighted?

I hope these points clear up some of the confusion:

I) You do not need to register to have logo be copyrighted. All you need to do is fix your expression in a tangible medium--i.e., taking a picture with your digital camera, drawing a logo on paper, or illustrating design on your computer. You have a copyright as soon you have done this.

II) All of the rights of copyright attach at "fixation." These rights include the right to exclude others from copying your expression, the right of distribution, the right of public performance and display. You also have a right to any derivative works.

III) Registration does not grant you a copyright. Registration is useful as evidence proving (1) that you are the owner of the copyright and (2) when your ownership rights began. Any copyright potentially worth more than $30 to the owner should be registered. When in doubt, register!

IV) Infringement requires the plaintiff to prove (1) he has a valid copyright, (2) illicit copying by the defendant (usually accomplised by showing that the defendant had access to the mark without actually copying), and (3) improper appropriation--i.e., the defendant "took too much" of the copyrighted work (usually accomplished by showing that the alleged infrining work is substantially similar to the copyrighted work).

V) As you can tell, infringement is not an exact science, and courts are all over the board with what is infringement--especially because these questions involve juries. But only changing 30% of an existing copyright would very likely be found to be infringing.

I hope that helps.

By this logic, why is there a copyright office? Why hasn't the government just said, oh well people can mail things to themselves or take a digital picture of it.

When I was in Art school there was a saying "If it's good enough for Coke, than it should be good enough for you."

Translation, Coca Cola copyrights everything. They don't go, oh well as soon as we fix it in a tangible form, it's copyrighted so don't bother paying the $30.

Please.

All due respect Mingjai, but that's just not professional.

[Mingjai]

By this logic, why is there a copyright office? Why hasn't the government just said, oh well people can mail things to themselves or take a digital picture of it.

When I was in Art school there was a saying  "If it's good enough for Coke, than it should be good enough for you."

Translation, Coca Cola copyrights everything. They don't go, oh well as soon as we fix it in a tangible form, it's copyrighted so don't bother paying the $30.

Please.

All due respect Mingjai, but that's just not professional.

The copyright office is really nothing more than a rubber stamp. They don't do much examination of what is sent to them, they just file it away. The Patent and Trademark Office on the other hand examines patents and trademarks and is required by law to reject those applications that are not in accordance with the relevant law. The Copyright Office does not have this requirement. There are no copyright examiners. However, as I said before, because of the better litigation position registration gives the copyright holder, you're crazy not to register a valuable copyright.

The Copyright Office was relevant when the United States required registration to obtain copyright. But in order for to harmonize United States copyright law with the Berne Convention, the Copyright Act of 1976 explicitly made registration not a requirement of obtaining a copyright. The requirement under the law is fixation in a tangible medium.

Look, I don't want to argue with you, I'm just trying to tell you what the law is. How you believe the law acts in practical matters is left for your own determination.

[griffin128]

All I'm saying, and I think that we agree, if it's valuable to you and you wanted to be extra safe, spend the $30.

[Mingjai]

All I'm saying, and I think that we agree, if it's valuable to you and you wanted to be extra safe, spend the $30.

Yep, you hit the nail right on the head--I agree 100 percent.

[sugarloaf]

Can I ask what you're trying to copyright. Is it a personal project, a paying job? You should wait until it's 100% finished before you go through the copyright process.

It's a personal project.