SSUR.org Proposed Color Sets

[meetthemets]

Is there a reason that you do not include the PMS colors or CMYK values for these? I would think that if you are putting the color information out there you should have the values on there as well.

Partly because a lot of these use some of the actual Pantone colors within the sets...

You know me - always paranoid.

I don't understand. Why can't you include the PMS colors?

[TruColor]

I don't understand. Why can't you include the PMS colors?

I just explained it. What's the issue?

[meetthemets]

I don't understand. Why can't you include the PMS colors?

I just explained it. What's the issue?

Not really. Why can't you include what the PMS color is next to the color? What is there to be paranoid about? Seems like your site is purely for reference.

[TruColor]

I don't understand. Why can't you include the PMS colors?

I just explained it. What's the issue?

Not really. Why can't you include what the PMS color is next to the color? What is there to be paranoid about? Seems like your site is purely for reference.

Does this need to be explained AGAIN????

I mean, c'mon.

[meetthemets]

My question: Why don't you include the PMS values next to the colors?

Your answer: Because they include pantone colors.

It was a pretty straight forward question. Yes, please explain it again.

Call me retarded but I think it's kind of ironic that your name is Pantone and there are no Pantone colors listed.

[timparry]

My question: Why don't you include the PMS values next to the colors?

Your answer: Because they include pantone colors.

It was a pretty straight forward question. Yes, please explain it again.

Call me retarded but I think it's kind of ironic that your name is Pantone and there are no Pantone colors listed.

PANTONE, I think I understand what meetthemets is trying to ask. Let the crack reporter in me ask the question again:

Do PANTONE color values have a copyright to them, or something else that could lead to a lawsuit if they are revealed to the general public? Or is it like revealing a logo that hasn't been introduced to the public - a major no-no that could have leagues looking to shut the board down?

Thanks!

[meetthemets]

PANTONE, I think I understand what meetthemets is trying to ask. Let the crack reporter in me ask the question again:

Do PANTONE color values have a copyright to them, or something else that could lead to a lawsuit if they are revealed to the general public? Or is it like revealing a logo that hasn't been introduced to the public - a major no-no that could have leagues looking to shut the board down?

Thanks!

Thank you for understanding. I really didn't think it was that diffucult of a question.

If what you are saying about the copyright issue is true, I've never heard that. You can go on basically any university's site and find out what PMS colors they use. A simple google search can also accomplish the same thing. For instance, I typed in "florida gators pms colors" and it brought me directly to the university's site where all of their pantone colors are listed.

And if it is a fact that there is a copyright issue then shouldn't Pantone change his avatar?

[TruColor]

It's just that this subject has been beaten to death on this board. For years, we've been talking about this. Over and over again.

Here's the deal - my "concept" colors for the Royals includes Royal Blue, Powder Blue and Metallic Gold. The Royal and Gold use the exact Pantone colors as the Royals currently use. The Powder Blue is the exact Pantone that the Royals used back in the day for their old road uniforms. They're just part of a puzzle that could potentially allow someone to produce illegal merchandise. Would I actually get in trouble? Hard to say for sure, but let me tell you - I have been called at home by the NBA Creative Services Dept. to take down things before off of my site...not something I want to have happen again.

Colleges and universities often have Pantone colors listed on their own sites...that's their perogative I suppose. Some do, some don't. Still, I don't think I can then turn around and list them on my own site.

My own question is this: why would anyone actually want the Pantone colors anyway? Other than if they were "collecting" them as I do, or if they wanted to do something with them illegally? This is a serious question - I'm just not sure why this seems to come up so often.

[4DOOR]

While I have not always agreed with you on the Pantone issue and your exclusion of website links on your site, I find your color sets, nonetheless, a valuable resource to sports hobbyists and those interested in sports graphics. Keep up the great work.

[TruColor]

While I have not always agreed with you on the Pantone issue and your exclusion of website links on your site, I find your color sets, nonetheless, a valuable resource to sports hobbyists and those interested in sports graphics. Keep up the great work.

Thanks, but what "exclusion of website links" are you referring to?

[meetthemets]

It's just that this subject has been beaten to death on this board. For years, we've been talking about this. Over and over again.

Here's the deal - my "concept" colors for the Royals includes Royal Blue, Powder Blue and Metallic Gold. The Royal and Gold use the exact Pantone colors as the Royals currently use. The Powder Blue is the exact Pantone that the Royals used back in the day for their old road uniforms. They're just part of a puzzle that could potentially allow someone to produce illegal merchandise. Would I actually get in trouble? Hard to say for sure, but let me tell you - I have been called at home by the NBA Creative Services Dept. to take down things before off of my site...not something I want to have happen again.

Colleges and universities often have Pantone colors listed on their own sites...that's their perogative I suppose. Some do, some don't. Still, I don't think I can then turn around and list them on my own site.

My own question is this: why would anyone actually want the Pantone colors anyway? Other than if they were "collecting" them as I do, or if they wanted to do something with them illegally? This is a serious question - I'm just not sure why this seems to come up so often.

To answer your question of "why would anyone want the pantone colors anyway," why not? My question to you is why would someone come to your site to find out that the Yankees colors are navy blue and white? Most people already know that. Say I came to your site looking for specific colors of the Chicago Bears. I look around and find out that the colors are "navy blue and orange." I'm not really any better off than when I started my search. I already knew those were the colors. You are not really telling me anything I don't already know. I would look at your site because maybe you had some specific information. That's why it was puzzling to me to not see that information.

Most people that are producing illegal merchandise aren't going to care either way. As long as they have something close they'll roll with it. Whether you have the PMS values on there or not doesn't really matter. They could make the same illegal merchandise by just looking at the colors and matching it themselves. If a team's color is 485 red and they use 185 red, 99.9% of the public can't tell the difference anyway.

I think your site is somewhat informative but it could be much more informative. If someone really wanted to find out PMS colors they could do so by searching the internet. I would think your site would be a good place to find out that information without having to do that. It seems like the point of your site is to be a one stop shop for sports color information but it leaves the most important information out. If you don't want PMS colors up there that's your call but I think that the site really isn't giving me any new information and suffers because of it. At least put the CMYK values on there. There's nothing Pantone can do about that.

I'm not trying to be a dick, just trying to give you my initial impression of the site, that's all.

[slapshot]

Specific Pantone colors are proprietary information. For the same reason that vector files of the logos are not readily available, Pantone color information is also not readily available.

PANTONE said it right....what purpose is there to know the colors unless one plans on reproducing the artwork? In a perfect world, the only people that should know what the specific colors are, or have knowledge of them, are those who are legally authorized and licensed to use them.

As PANTONE noted, many of the leagues crack down on the distribution of the proprietary information. Listing a color as "midnight blue" or "sunrise yellow" is pretty arbitrary. Listing them as 294 Blue or 105 Yellow is specific information, like ingredients in a recipe.

Just because you may be able to find out the specific colors with diligent research is not the point. PANTONE is providing a resourceful service by displaying the colors (which aren't even the actual colors...they have been recreated mathematically for optimal on-screen viewing. Printing them out will not get the same colors). I know that he has workng relationships with many media relations personnel in the various leagues, and he would ruin his reputation by giving out unpublished logos and "secret" colors.

If you are so determined to find the Pantone values, just do some research, and publish your own website with the information. Then see how long it takes before you are asked to remove it.

[TruColor]

To answer your question of "why would anyone want the pantone colors anyway," why not? My question to you is why would someone come to your site to find out that the Yankees colors are navy blue and white? Most people already know that. Say I came to your site looking for specific colors of the Chicago Bears. I look around and find out that the colors are "navy blue and orange." I'm not really any better off than when I started my search. I already knew those were the colors. You are not really telling me anything I don't already know. I would look at your site because maybe you had some specific information. That's why it was puzzling to me to not see that information.

Most people that are producing illegal merchandise aren't going to care either way. As long as they have something close they'll roll with it. Whether you have the PMS values on there or not doesn't really matter. They could make the same illegal merchandise by just looking at the colors and matching it themselves. If a team's color is 485 red and they use 185 red, 99.9% of the public can't tell the difference anyway.

I think your site is somewhat informative but it could be much more informative. If someone really wanted to find out PMS colors they could do so by searching the internet. I would think your site would be a good place to find out that information without having to do that. It seems like the point of your site is to be a one stop shop for sports color information but it leaves the most important information out. If you don't want PMS colors up there that's your call but I think that the site really isn't giving me any new information and suffers because of it. At least put the CMYK values on there. There's nothing Pantone can do about that.

I'm not trying to be a dick, just trying to give you my initial impression of the site, that's all.

You'll be somewhat surprised to know that I agree with you 100% on this. I really do. However, the bottom line is this - the teams and leagues themselves don't want this information published, so therefore, I can't do it. Whether they're right or wrong is not my call. It's not Pantone, Inc.'s issue, it's the leagues and teams who would have a problem with it. Pantone colors, CMYK, it doesn't matter - the leagues don't want this stuff made public.

I'm actually somewhat grateful that they don't seem to have a problem with color swatches.

[meetthemets]

PANTONE said it right....what purpose is there to know the colors unless one plans on reproducing the artwork? In a perfect world, the only people that should know what the specific colors are, or have knowledge of them, are those who are legally authorized and licensed to use them.

So what is the point of knowing the colors without that information? What do you need that information for?

And to the analogy to vector art, it is a completely different ball game. I can look at a teams uniform and figure out what colors they use in my head. It's not that difficult. I can't look at a teams logo and turn it into vector art in my head and use it on a t-shirt. It's a bit tougher to do that.

You'll be somewhat surprised to know that I agree with you 100% on this. I really do. However, the bottom line is this - the teams and leagues themselves don't want this information published, so therefore, I can't do it. Whether they're right or wrong is not my call. It's not Pantone, Inc.'s issue, it's the leagues and teams who would have a problem with it. Pantone colors, CMYK, it doesn't matter - the leagues don't want this stuff made public.

I'm actually somewhat grateful that they don't seem to have a problem with color swatches.

If it's a legal issue then that's completely different. If you are really getting calls from the leagues then that is understandable why you don't have them up there. However, I can't logically see why leagues would have a problem with having the swatches up there. I don't understand why posting colors is any sort of security risk. Anybody can look at a photo of the team in action and get a basic idea of what the colors are.

[slapshot]

If it's a legal issue then that's completely different. If you are really getting calls from the leagues then that is understandable why you don't have them up there. However, I can't logically see why leagues would have a problem with having the swatches up there. I don't understand why posting colors is any sort of security risk. Anybody can look at a photo of the team in action and get a basic idea of what the colors are.

I'm pretty sure it is a legal issue. Anyone can buy a jar of spaghetti sauce and try to figure out the ingredients from tasting it.

Showing color swatches is just like listing the ingredients. Anyone can clearly see what the colors/ingredients are. But listing specifics is like giving away trade secrets.

[Sec19Row53]

Here's an analogy:

Basic idea of colors = raster graphics

Pantone color values = vector graphics

Does that make it clearer?

[meetthemets]

Here's an analogy:

Basic idea of colors = raster graphics

Pantone color values = vector graphics

Does that make it clearer?

No, in fact you have dug deeper.

My point was that posting vector graphics is much more of a security risk than color information. Anybody can get a team's colors close enough to where 99% of the people wouldn't know the difference. You could do this from a simple photo. However, if I asked you to recreate a vector file from this image and not confuse anybody to the original, you may find it rather difficult.

I'm pretty sure it is a legal issue. Anyone can buy a jar of spaghetti sauce and try to figure out the ingredients from tasting it.

Showing color swatches is just like listing the ingredients. Anyone can clearly see what the colors/ingredients are. But listing specifics is like giving away trade secrets.

If I gave you a jar of spaghetti sauce and put a bunch of ingerdients on a table and said "recreate this spaghetti sauce as close as you can," it would probly take you a very long time. If I showed you this logo and said "match the colors as close as you can," it would probably take you three seconds.

[slapshot]

If I gave you a jar of spaghetti sauce and put a bunch of ingerdients on a table and said "recreate this spaghetti sauce as close as you can," it would probly take you a very long time. If I showed you this logo and said "match the colors as close as you can," it would probably take you three seconds.

But you're not matching color spaces. If I redrew that Mavericks logo for on-screen use only, and used the color picker, then fine. But if you're printing it out, it's not the same color. You have to approximate the colors, which is not the same as using the Pantone color values.

What you see on screen is not the same as what you see on paper or printed on a T-shirt. You can guess. You may come close. But you're not getting the exact same color. It might be the different between store-brand spaghetti sauce and Classico di Napoli sauce.

[meetthemets]

But you're not matching color spaces. If I redrew that Mavericks logo for on-screen use only, and used the color picker, then fine. But if you're printing it out, it's not the same color. You have to approximate the colors, which is not the same as using the Pantone color values.

What you see on screen is not the same as what you see on paper or printed on a T-shirt. You can guess. You may come close. But you're not getting the exact same color. It might be the different between store-brand spaghetti sauce and Classico di Napoli sauce.

I understand the difference between on-screen colors and print colors. You can still pick colors the same way. Why is picking colors for on-screen any different than picking them for print? You can still match the colors close enough to where the average person doesn't know the difference without knowing the PMS color. It is still very easy to do.

Pantone doesn't produce inks (at least not for screenprinting). Pantone is a color matching system. When screenprinters go to print a Mavericks t-shirt, they don't use a Pantone ink. They use an ink that closely resembles the PMS color (usually one recommended by Pantone). If I was producing shirts, I could probably pick (or at least get pretty close) to the same blue ink that Pantone would recommend for the Mavericks blue, even if I didn't have the specific Pantone information.

[timparry]

Here's an analogy:

Basic idea of colors = raster graphics

Pantone color values = vector graphics

Does that make it clearer?

No... but I'm not an artist

But I have learned a lot in this thread.

I work for a trade magazine publishing company, and we have the PANTONE books. So if I wanted to, I could use them to try to match the concept colors, unused colors, etc. But I could still be off if I try to eyeball it myself.

But I understand the trade secret concept. We think of counterfeiters as those creeps selling stuff on eBay or in the parking lot at the stadium, but the could use sites like this one to look up proprietary information.