BCS Playoffs?

[infrared41]

and i know they all get that free education and if i got another opportunity there'd be no hesitation in my acceptance, but i ask you what makes a student athlete from Toledo and one from Ohio State so different that its ok for the toledo guy to be insulted and treated like a special needs kid?

Give me a -ing break. Toledo kids aren't treated like special needs kids. Stop being such a drama queen.

There is no difference between the kids. There is however a big difference between the two programs. What makes the Buffalo Bison so different from The Boston Red Sox that it's OK to insult all the kids who work so hard and leave the Bison out of the professional baseball playoffs? They're both professional baseball teams. Both teams have players that work very hard to be the best athletes they can be. Why should Boston be allowed to participate in the playoffs while Buffalo isn't? It's professional baseball. What's the difference?

Also, I have no idea what Ohio State makes on a home game. I figure it's got to be at least 500 bucks.

[slightly shotgunned]

and i know they all get that free education and if i got another opportunity there'd be no hesitation in my acceptance, but i ask you what makes a student athlete from Toledo and one from Ohio State so different that its ok for the toledo guy to be insulted and treated like a special needs kid?

Give me a -ing break. Toledo kids aren't treated like special needs kids. Stop being such a drama queen.

There is no difference between the kids. There is however a big difference between the two programs. What makes the Buffalo Bison so different from The Boston Red Sox that it's OK to insult all the kids who work so hard and leave the Bison out of the professional baseball playoffs? They're both professional baseball teams. Both teams have players that work very hard to be the best athletes they can be. Why should Boston be allowed to participate in the playoffs while Buffalo isn't? It's professional baseball. What's the difference?

Also, I have no idea what Ohio State makes on a home game. I figure it's got to be at least 500 bucks.

a bit dramatic i'll admit, but what would you call it should toledo win the mac be undefeated and not even be considered to play for a title? they bring their resume, the powers that be ruffle their hair, say 'that's nice now go play with your little friends' and send them away. oh and uh...the buffalo bison DO play in the pro baseball playoffs. just not the same one the red sox play in, so there's the whole, either move them down or give them something else point i mentioned.

really? 500? that's more than i originally thought. i was thinking around 150-200.

[BaltimoreFan]

IF there was a playoff, I don't think every mid-major conference should get an automatic bid. That doesn't mean that mid-majors wouldn't get a shot. The mid-majors in basketball that have had success were for the most part considered great teams. They would have made the tournament with or with out automatic bids (Indiana State made it to the championship with out an auto bid). The same would be true with football. Hawaii would make the tournament this year, Boise State would have made it last year, Utah would have made it a couple years ago, etc. You can afford to put in more mid-majors in basketball because there are more games. Football's season is shorter so you can't add too many games to a playoff. Also I really think that putting Central Michigan and Troy into a playoff really defeats the purpose of a playoff (sorry to any Chippewa or Trojan fans).

[infrared41]

Also I really think that putting Central Michigan and Troy into a playoff really defeats the purpose of a playoff (sorry to any Chippewa or Trojan fans).

Let's be fair and take a look at the teams that would represent the mid-majors in a 16 team playoff where all conference winners are guaranteed a bid. Here is how they did against "Major" conference competition.

MAC winner Central Michigan played three "Majors" this season. Here are the results...

Kansas 52

CMU 7

Purdue 45

CMU 22

Clemson 70

CMU 14

Of the three, one (Kansas) would make the 16 team field.

How about Sun Belt winner Florida Atlantic?

Okla. St. 42

FAU 6

FAU 42

Minnesota 39

Kentucky 45

FA 17

USF 35

FAU 23

Florida 59

FAU 20

They beat one win Minnesota. Of the other three teams maybe one (Florida) makes the field of 16. One those games, a twelve point loss to a team that is only ten years old was as "close" as it got.

C-USA winner Central Florida...

UCF 25

NC State 23

Texas 35

UCF 32

Hey UCF beat NC State and damn near knocked off Texas. Looks like UCF may blow a hole in my argument. Well almost, but there's this...

East Carolina 52

UCF 38

USF 64

UCF 12

Not a playoff team in the bunch.

Here's Mountain West winner BYU

BYU 20

Arizona 7

UCLA 27

BYU 17

Just for fun, they also lost to C-USA powerhouse Tulsa. But the Cougars did beat a PAC-10 team. What they didn't do was play anyone within sniffing distance of a 16 team playoff.

Let's save the best for last. Here is WAC winner Hawaii.

They beat Washington. The Rainbows had a great season. BCS Bowl bound. And they'd probably make an 8 team playoff...this season.

So in review...

Mids Wins: 4. Average margin of victory: 6.25

Mids losses: 10. Average margin of defeat 28.4

Records of the "majors" beaten by the mid-major conference winners.

Minnesota: 1-10

NC State: 5-7

Arizona 5-7

Washington: 4-9

Mid-major conference champion wins against the two possible 16 team playoff participants: 0

Average margin of defeat: 42 points.

Those are the numbers.

[KevinMcD]

and i know they all get that free education and if i got another opportunity there'd be no hesitation in my acceptance, but i ask you what makes a student athlete from Toledo and one from Ohio State so different that its ok for the toledo guy to be insulted and treated like a special needs kid?

Give me a -ing break. Toledo kids aren't treated like special needs kids. Stop being such a drama queen.

There is no difference between the kids. There is however a big difference between the two programs. What makes the Buffalo Bison so different from The Boston Red Sox that it's OK to insult all the kids who work so hard and leave the Bison out of the professional baseball playoffs? They're both professional baseball teams. Both teams have players that work very hard to be the best athletes they can be. Why should Boston be allowed to participate in the playoffs while Buffalo isn't? It's professional baseball. What's the difference?

Also, I have no idea what Ohio State makes on a home game. I figure it's got to be at least 500 bucks.

Why can't Appalahian State make the BCS? They are in a different league altogether. The Bisons make the IL Playoffs, not the MLB Playoffs and the Applachian State Mountaineers can and did make the FCS Playoffs, not the BCS. Toledo is in the same league as Ohio State, Texas, LSU, USC, etc... If they win their Conference (Like a division in baseball) they deserve a shot at the league playoffs (BCS Playoff)

[slightly shotgunned]

Also I really think that putting Central Michigan and Troy into a playoff really defeats the purpose of a playoff (sorry to any Chippewa or Trojan fans).

Let's be fair and take a look at the teams that would represent the mid-majors in a 16 team playoff where all conference winners are guaranteed a bid. Here is how they did against "Major" conference competition.

MAC winner Central Michigan played three "Majors" this season. Here are the results...

Kansas 52

CMU 7

Purdue 45

CMU 22

Clemson 70

CMU 14

Of the three, one (Kansas) would make the 16 team field.

How about Sun Belt winner Florida Atlantic?

Okla. St. 42

FAU 6

FAU 42

Minnesota 39

Kentucky 45

FA 17

USF 35

FAU 23

Florida 59

FAU 20

They beat one win Minnesota. Of the other three teams maybe one (Florida) makes the field of 16. One those games, a twelve point loss to a team that is only ten years old was as "close" as it got.

C-USA winner Central Florida...

UCF 25

NC State 23

Texas 35

UCF 32

Hey UCF beat NC State and damn near knocked off Texas. Looks like UCF may blow a hole in my argument. Well almost, but there's this...

East Carolina 52

UCF 38

USF 64

UCF 12

Not a playoff team in the bunch.

Here's Mountain West winner BYU

BYU 20

Arizona 7

UCLA 27

BYU 17

Just for fun, they also lost to C-USA powerhouse Tulsa. But the Cougars did beat a PAC-10 team. What they didn't do was play anyone within sniffing distance of a 16 team playoff.

Let's save the best for last. Here is WAC winner Hawaii.

They beat Washington. The Rainbows had a great season. BCS Bowl bound. And they'd probably make an 8 team playoff...this season.

So in review...

Mids Wins: 4. Average margin of victory: 6.25

Mids losses: 10. Average margin of defeat 28.4

Records of the "majors" beaten by the mid-major conference winners.

Minnesota: 1-10

NC State: 5-7

Arizona 5-7

Washington: 4-9

Mid-major conference champion wins against the two possible 16 team playoff participants: 0

Average margin of defeat: 42 points.

Those are the numbers.

in the spirit of bcs "logic", let me illustrate why those numbers don't matter.

minnesota beat miami(oh) who beat syracuse who beat louisville who beat pitt who beat west virginia. minnesota could beat west virginia, therefore, Florida Atlantic could beat west virginia. nc state beat virginia who beat wake forest who beat vanderbilt who beat south carolina who beat both georgia and kentucky. nc state could beat both georgia AND kentucky, therefore, central florida could also beat both georgia and kentucky. arizona beat oregon who beat usc. arizona could beat usc, therefore, BYU could beat usc. washington beat california who beat tennessee who beat arkansas who beat lsu. washington could beat lsu, therefore, hawaii could beat lsu. following that logic all the mid major teams that beat the major teams you listed could beat these power teams if only once. sure it won't happen every time, but since it can happen you can't say with any amount of certainty that it won't.

[infrared41]

in the spirit of bcs "logic", let me illustrate why those numbers don't matter.

minnesota beat miami(oh) who beat syracuse who beat louisville who beat pitt who beat west virginia. minnesota could beat west virginia, therefore, Florida Atlantic could beat west virginia. nc state beat virginia who beat wake forest who beat vanderbilt who beat south carolina who beat both georgia and kentucky. nc state could beat both georgia AND kentucky, therefore, central florida could also beat both georgia and kentucky. arizona beat oregon who beat usc. arizona could beat usc, therefore, BYU could beat usc. washington beat california who beat tennessee who beat arkansas who beat lsu. washington could beat lsu, therefore, hawaii could beat lsu. following that logic all the mid major teams that beat the major teams you listed could beat these power teams if only once. sure it won't happen every time, but since it can happen you can't say with any amount of certainty that it won't.

I am simply pointing out what the mid-major champions did against "major conference" competition. Those are hard numbers dude. There's no "woulda, coulda, shoulda" or "BCS logic" involved. The games were played and the scores were what happened. Take from it what you will. I simply showed the results. Sorry that they don't fit your argument. I can spout bull- about who "could" do what all day long but it doesn't make my case any stronger.

My guess is that if I went back and did the same thing for the past 10 seasons those numbers aren't going to change much. I do find it funny that you suddenly use the BCS of all things to support your argument.

Sure, CMU "could" beat LSU. And a UFO "could" land in my back yard and offer me the exclusive rights to be their spokesman. There is possible and there is probable. In all probability CMU or FAU aren't making it out of the first round 1 out of 1000 tries. That's just the way it is.

[slightly shotgunned]

I am simply pointing out what the mid-major champions did against "major conference" competition. Those are hard numbers dude. There's no "woulda, coulda, shoulda" or "BCS logic" involved. The games were played and the scores were what happened. Take from it what you will. I simply showed the results. Sorry that they don't fit your argument. I can spout bull- about who "could" do what all day long but it doesn't make my case any stronger.

My guess is that if I went back and did the same thing for the past 10 seasons those numbers aren't going to change much. I do find it funny that you suddenly use the BCS of all things to support your argument.

Sure, CMU "could" beat LSU. And a UFO "could" land in my back yard and offer me the exclusive rights to be their spokesman. There is possible and there is probable. In all probability CMU or FAU aren't making it out of the first round 1 out of 1000 tries. That's just the way it is.

now who's being dramatic?

i'm not saying that you're wrong just that using probability as a reason to keep the mid-majors out is flawed because, whether you like or not, no matter the odds against them, a mid-major team can beat a major team at any time. on my using the bcs, i thought you'd actually read the whole thing if i included it.

[infrared41]

Sure, CMU "could" beat LSU. And a UFO "could" land in my back yard and offer me the exclusive rights to be their spokesman.

now who's being dramatic?

C'mon, that's not drama, that's sarcasm.

I think we both agree that the mid-majors are going to get screwed if they're left out of a playoff. Believe me, there is nothing I'd like better than seeing a team like CMU get in a playoff and run the table to win the whole thing. We both know that's probably never going to happen. But I'm not arguing based on what I'd like or what I think is fair, my position is based on what I think the reality will be when we reach an actual playoff.

[-Helix-]

I think the only people against having mid-majors in the playoffs are those who are afraid that their team would lose to one. If I was an Ohio State fan, I would be afraid too.

Seriously though, upsets are the whole excitment of March Madness. A football playoff would be really dull without mid-majors having the chance to pull off upsets. And they are in D1-A. So they should be able to play for t he D1-A championship or there really isn't a point in them even having football programs.

[BaltimoreFan]

Seriously though, upsets are the whole excitment of March Madness. A football playoff would be really dull without mid-majors having the chance to pull off upsets. And they are in D1-A. So they should be able to play for t he D1-A championship or there really isn't a point in them even having football programs.

Yea, but comparing basketball and football is really like comparing apples and oranges. Upsets would be fun, but I really don't think a tournament could be anymore than 8 teams. Basketball isn't as physically demanding as football, you can play more games in less time. Some people are say their doing it in the player's best interest. Well playing too many games in football, is probably not looking out for the players best interest. More games increases the chances of injuries plus it probably isn't good for their post-playing career (disabilities, joint problems, etc.) Personally I think if your doing a tournament 8 teams is best. It would feel more like a tournament and you'd be able to allow a mid-major that could make a run (Hawaii could do it this year, Boise St. probably would have done it last year).

Let's put it this way. The main reason you want a tournament is to decide who the best team is. Well nobody right now is arguing that Central Michigan or Troy were snubed from the BCS. So why include them? Your not "banning" mid-majors from the tournament. Your just only allowing the ones that have a legimate shot.

[infrared41]

I think the only people against having mid-majors in the playoffs are those who are afraid that their team would lose to one. If I was an Ohio State fan, I would be afraid too.

Seriously though, upsets are the whole excitment of March Madness. A football playoff would be really dull without mid-majors having the chance to pull off upsets. And they are in D1-A. So they should be able to play for t he D1-A championship or there really isn't a point in them even having football programs.

You can't compare March Madness to a football playoff. The MAC going against a one-seed in a football playoff is the equivalent of a 1-16 match-up in basketball. I'd compare a mid-major knocking off a "major" in a football playoff to a 16 seed beating a one-seed in basketball. It's never happened. Even a two-seed being beaten by a 15 has only happened what, twice? When UCF beat NC State in football this year it was about the same as a 12-5 upset in basketball. NC State went 5-7. The mid-major conference champs in football are almost always going to be playing the basketball equivalent of a one-seed.

Mid-majors have been playing football for a long time without any realistic expectations of winning a national championship. It's not like being involved in a playoff would improve their chances.

[slightly shotgunned]

I think the only people against having mid-majors in the playoffs are those who are afraid that their team would lose to one. If I was an Ohio State fan, I would be afraid too.

Seriously though, upsets are the whole excitment of March Madness. A football playoff would be really dull without mid-majors having the chance to pull off upsets. And they are in D1-A. So they should be able to play for t he D1-A championship or there really isn't a point in them even having football programs.

You can't compare March Madness to a football playoff. The MAC going against a one-seed in a football playoff is the equivalent of a 1-16 match-up in basketball. I'd compare a mid-major knocking off a "major" in a football playoff to a 16 seed beating a one-seed in basketball. It's never happened. Even a two-seed being beaten by a 15 has only happened what, twice? When UCF beat NC State in football this year it was about the same as a 12-5 upset in basketball. NC State went 5-7. The mid-major conference champs in football are almost always going to be playing the basketball equivalent of a one-seed.

Mid-majors have been playing football for a long time without any realistic expectations of winning a national championship. It's not like being involved in a playoff would improve their chances.

i love how you said you can't compare march madness to a football playoff then proceeded to compare march madness to a football playoff. seriously though, 1-16 matchup has an incredibly lopsided record right now (i think its like 92-0 1 seed), but that doesn't stop them from playing the game. its not like the officials award the 1 seed the win just because 16 hasn't won before and there really isn't much of a chance of it ever happening. being involved in a playoff would greatly improve their chances because they'd actually have one. under the current system, being undefeated means no shot at the title as long as you are a mid-major program. there's zero chance. in a playoff system, there is a chance, however slim, of a mid-major winning a title. again, just because its unlikely doesn't mean it can't happen.