Kuhn, O'Malley, Williams elected to Baseball HOF

[Mac the Knife]

Does Gene Mauch belong in the HOF? Howzabout Ralph Houk? Lou Piniella? Jimmie Dykes? Chuck Tanner? Jim Leyland? How about Mike Hargrove?

All of the above either have won, or within the next season will have won, more games as a manager than Martin. And while I'll love Jim Leyland until the day I die, I don't believe he's HOF worthy.

Does Davey Johnson belong in the hall? How about the immortal Pat Moran or Patsy Tebeau? All have higher winning percentages. I think Johnson would run rings around Martin in the managerial world, but neither is HOF worthy.

[mantleisthebest7]

Uh, sorry. No. It isn't:

1969 - Minnesota (97-65; fired)

1970 - unemployed (an HOF manager gets fired after winning a division title... in Minnesota?)

1971 - Detroit (91-71)

1972 - Detroit (86-70)

1973 - Detroit (71-63; fired)

1973 - Texas (9-14)

1974 - Texas (84-76)

1975 - Texas (44-51; fired)

1975 - New York AL (30-26)

1976 - New York AL (97-62)

1977 - New York AL (100-62)

1978 - New York AL (52-42; fired)

1979 - New York AL (55-40; hired during season, fired after season)

1980 - Oakland (83-79)

1981 - Oakland (64-45)

1982 - Oakland (68-94; fired)

1983 - New York AL (91-71; fired)

1984 - unemployed

1985 - New York AL (91-54; fired)

1986 - unemployed

1987 - unemployed

1988 - New York AL (40-28)

Career R.S. Record?

1,253 - 1,013. 2 world series titles; 8 firings.

Not exactly HOF material in my book.

Im lookin at most of these records and see records that are over .500 and are pretty solid. Infact, I can count 15. People always complain about his firings, but did you ever think about the fact that he was mostly employed by a maniac by the name of, um, what was it.......it's on the tip of my toungue.....Oh! George Freaking Steinbrenner! The guy drove even Joe Torre, who could be the greatest manager of this era, out of New York. Nothing was ever good enough for Steinbrenner, not even a World Series apperance. Ever seen the mini-series, "The Bronx Is Burning" ? Pop it in, watch it all the way through, and maybe you'll get a different idea about Martin. I know I did.

Oh, you forgot a little somethin-somethin. Maybe division titles? With four different teams? Eh?

Oh and those 1,253 wins rank somewhere around 23rd, I believe, all time. Its not like that total is a bottom feeder of all time totals.

Sure, he had his eruptions. And some were deserving of punishment. But the others were either overhyped, or were for perfectly good reason. Examples:

In one game vs. Boston (with NYY), I believe the batter was Jim Rice. Rice check swings on a pitch, but still cracks it to right field, where Reggie Jackson is stationed. The hit should be an easy pop-out, but Jackson "loafs" and just simply jogs to the spot where it lands. Martin takes him out of the game for not hustling, Martin tries to tell Jackson to knock off the loafing, Jackson takes it harshly and calls Martin a "washed up old man", and all peril breaks loose. All Martin was trying to do was show Reggie in his own way, never to loaf and give all you got on every play, no matter if a hit is shallow or over your head. Jackson took it as a simple bloop and let it go when he should have been bookin' it hard to snag it. Had he done that, that would be one less overhyped Martin reaction for the critics to whine about.

In the 1976 World Series vs. Cincinatti, in game 7 a call (im not sure what the call was) was blown and Martin knew it. He simply throws an "air jab" in disbelief, not directed toward anyone or anything. The umpire takes it as an insult and throws Matin out of the game - for making a completely unobscene gesture? Martin explodes out of the dugout, but makes NO contact with the umpire. After words are exchanged, Martin begins to kick dirt on the umpire then is finally restrained and taken out. Nobody thought Lou Pinella was the devil for kicking dirt. Why should anybody think that of Martin on that play, especially where the umpire blows a call and throws Martin out for a lousy reason.

Owners must not have been in the zone or something when they fired Martin because of his 8 firings, only two came from dismal seasons. The other six came when he was leading teams to records over .500. Some, like his 1969 stint with Minnesota, even came after a division title. One came the midseason after his 1977 World Series win, and the Yankees were over .500 by the time he was fired. So quit complaining about his firings. The point is, the guy could freaking win.

Let's grow up a bit and look at reality. Even HOFer Casey Stengel, Martin's longtime friend and former manager, couldnt say he won division titles with 4 different teams (Stengel himself was a nomad - managing the Dodgers, Braves, Yankees, and Mets). Before you guys make the "well, Martin couldnt say he won as many games as Stengel, either" argument, let me say this - Maybe if egomaniacal and heartless owners like George Stienbrenner hadnt fired him so much and instead APPRECIATED his manager for winning, maybe Martin might have won 1,700 games, maybe even 2,000.

My point is, for the years that he actually got the chance, Martin was as stellar of a manager as any who have ever managed. Of his 18 seasons (and they arent even TOTAL seasons), Martin's teams only went under .500 three times. Thats incredible guys. 15 seasons out of 18 winning over .500 is absolutely amazing. Dont even start pointing out those bad seasons. LaSorda, Durocher, Torre, McCarthy, all those guys have had thier share of losing seasons. Martin has only had THREE in EIGHTEEN. Had he been given the chance instead of shunned away just because some stupid owner had a feud with him, I strongly believe that Martin would have (my guess) around 1,800 wins. People jsut didnt get it that Martin could take a team, any team (for petes sake, he did it with the RANGERS!), and make them a winner. Its not his fault hes left out, its those that didnt appreciate a hard working winner.

So lets get over it and get Billy in the Hall.

[infrared41]

Ever seen the mini-series, "The Bronx Is Burning" ? Pop it in, watch it all the way through, and maybe you'll get a different idea about Martin. I know I did.

Oh, you forgot a little somethin-somethin. Maybe division titles? With four different teams? Eh?

So lets get over it and get Billy in the Hall.

You can't take a mini-series produced by ESPN Original Entertainment as the gospel. That's like saying Miracle was an exact and totally factual telling of the 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey Team. The Bronx is Burning mini-series is a dramatic presentation "based on actual events" (based on being the operative phrase there.)

I followed baseball in 1977. I remember that team very well. Despite what ESPN may want you to believe, most "experts" at the time attributed the Yankees troubles to the fact that the team had no chemistry and Steinbrenner didn't know about running a baseball team. Jackson and Martin were just two of many sideshows that came with the 1977 Yankees. They certainly had their issues but they were by no means the only "problems" on that team.

Billy Martin was a good field manager but his over the top intensity usually resulted in a team that got tired of his bull- after a couple seasons. He was also one of the biggest horse's asses ever. It's easy to look at his "numbers" and Championships and think he's possibly HOF material but the truth is that his "legend" increased a great deal after his death.

Billy Martin was hardly a beloved figure while he was alive and involved with the game. People respected his baseball acumen but I don't recall him being well liked. I can't remember Martin even being considered one of the best managers in the game at the time. I may be wrong about that but I know that he was seen as more trouble than he was worth by a lot of teams.

Read a few more books on Martin and the 70's Yankees. I think your perception will change if you do.

[mantleisthebest7]

Unless the man cheated or did something to ban him from the game (i.e: Joe Jacksn, Pete Rose), you cant hold a reputation against a person like that. I never denied that Martin was a hot head, I knew that he was. But just because he had some bad habits or was a hot head doesnt mean you can immediately deny eligiblity to Martin because of that. I could rattle off numerous HOFers that also shared the same temper (Lefty Grove, Hal Newhouser, and a few others) and or the same drinking habits (Babe Ruth, Grover Alexander, Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford, and plenty more). Then you go on the managerial side and you look at Leo Durocher, who wasnt a calm fellow either (the HOF manager is affectionately known as "the Lip" for pete's sake), and guys like John McGraw shared the same temper and had the same knack for getting tossed and making thier point to the umps. Yet, each of these guys got in. True, Martin will be forever seen as a bad-boy. But you guys still arent getting it: The guy won everywhere he went. I dont know how many times I have to say it, but the guy won division titles with four, FOUR different teams. And despite his tirades, 15 of his 18 seasons were winning seasons. 15 WINNING SEASONS. I just don't get how you could overlook that. Ive already said my peace about his firings, which were unfortunate and undeserved. You say that you dont believe you remember a time when Billy Martin was considered a great manager, well I ask, how could that be? I have Sports Illustrated's, "The Baseball Book", and inside it has an article written when he managed the Rangers that had some heavy praise for Martin. And that was in 1975. And when he finally got a ring in 1977, i'm sure that someone high in baseball thought that Martin was pretty special. He was baseball's little guy, and he rose to the top more times than many get to in thier careers, and yet people just kept dropping him off and kicking him around. There will come a time when Billy Martin will finally get elected, whether its the next election or one after. But I believe that his election has been long due. Say what you want about him, believe what you want to believe. But this is my opinion: Billy deserves this more than alot of people that were on that ballot, and even more that some that have gone in before him. I don't care about his eruptions, about his rep, and about his firings. I look beyond that and see a winning manager who could take a team and MAKE them win. I respect your opinions, but mine is that Billy Martin SHOULD and WILL get in.

[Mac the Knife]

1970 - Unemployed, having been fired by Minnesota after winning a division title.

1973 - Unemployed at the end of the season, fired by Detroit.

1975 - Unemployed briefly after Texas fired him.

1978 - Unemployed, fired just 94 games after winning a World Series for New York.

1979 - Unemployed at the end of season, fired by New York after just 95 games.

1982 - Unemployed after season, fired by Oakland, having "Martinized" the AL's best young pitching staff.

1983 - Unemployed after season, fired by New York, yet again.

1984 - Unemployed.

1985 - Unemployed after season, hired, and fired, by New York again.

1986 - Unemployed.

1987 - Unemployed.

1988 - Unemployed, having been hired, and fired, yet again by New York.

What HOF-calibre manager spends parts of 12 seasons of his career UNEMPLOYED? None.

If a manager is good enough to be HOF-worthy, teams seek his services when they become available. Martin had to plead with Texas to get the job there; he got the Yankee gig only because of Steinbrenner; he was hired in Oakland only because new ownership wanted to show fans a serious commitment to winning (akin to what the Pittsburgh Pirates would've done had they hired Buck Showalter this winter, for example), and EVERY TEAM HE EVER WORKED FOR FIRED HIM.

[mantleisthebest7]

1970 - Unemployed, having been fired by Minnesota after winning a division title.

1973 - Unemployed at the end of the season, fired by Detroit.

1975 - Unemployed briefly after Texas fired him.

1978 - Unemployed, fired just 94 games after winning a World Series for New York

1979 - Unemployed at the end of season, fired by New York after just 95 games.

1982 - Unemployed after season, fired by Oakland, having "Martinized" the AL's best young pitching staff.

1983 - Unemployed after season, fired by New York, yet again.

1984 - Unemployed.

1985 - Unemployed after season, hired, and fired, by New York again.

1986 - Unemployed.

1987 - Unemployed.

1988 - Unemployed, having been hired, and fired, yet again by New York.

What HOF-calibre manager spends parts of 12 seasons of his career UNEMPLOYED? None.

If a manager is good enough to be HOF-worthy, teams seek his services when they become available. Martin had to plead with Texas to get the job there; he got the Yankee gig only because of Steinbrenner; he was hired in Oakland only because new ownership wanted to show fans a serious commitment to winning (akin to what the Pittsburgh Pirates would've done had they hired Buck Showalter this winter, for example), and EVERY TEAM HE EVER WORKED FOR FIRED HIM.

You notice that three of these seasons (1970, 1978, 1982) were seasons after which he either won a division title or a world series. then also, he had won a division title with Detroit in 1972 and was fired the following season. I just dont understand this. So freakin' what if he was a hot head. It's like everything I say goes in one ear and out the other. I honestly cant think of another manager that could say he won division titles with four different teams, and on top of that took Texas from last to 2nd. You say that he begged for the job in Texas, and I think thats a little eggagerated. Yeah, he needed the job, but he didnt go on his knees and weep to whatever owner was owning the Rangers at the time. As for Stienbrenner, he played Martin like a game of checkers and tossed him out the door countless times after befriending him. Your gonna blame Billy for that? Thats pretty low. When Steinbrenner hired him, he told him how much Martin was his "favorite Yankee" and that all those firings were mistakes on the other teams part, and that he wouldnt treat him like that, then turned around and became Martin's bully. Ive posted before that I did a big report on Martin in my journalism class, and did loads of research. Did you even know that Martin was extremely hesitant to take the Yankee job, and was just inches from declining it? He was afraid another owner would treat him like crap and toss him out the door, which unfortunately, became the case. If you guys learned and/or knew a little more about Billy, you'd then know that he actually had a heart, infact a hard working heart, and there were many all-nighters he spent making sure he had the right strategy, the right lineup, the right everything to beat his opponent. He did this everywhere he went, and won there. Those firings, four of which came at the hands of the Yankees, were in my opinion unnecassary. You guys are overlooking the fact that (I can't believe I have to say this AGAIN) he had 15 winning seasons out of 18. The fact that he took a team to at least 2nd place with each team. The fact that his win total is in the top 25 all time (Billy Southworth can't say that). I don't know what else I have to say about this, and you guys can rat me all you want about my age and crap, but Billy, in my opinion, needs in.

Like I've said before, I have the uttermost respect for your opinions and I do hope I have not offended anyone on this site. I apologize wholeheartedly if I have. I just get really defensive and my debate-machine kicks on into high gear when I have an opinion on subjects like these, especially the subject of the Veterans Ballot, which succeeds every year in snubbing the most deserving figures in baseball. Once again, I respect your opinions, I just really like to express my own as much as I can. I apologize if this caused any inconvienience.

[Mac the Knife]

It's like everything I say goes in one ear and out the other.

No, not at all. You just believe that since you say it, others must agree with it. Exclaiming, "But I'm right, damnit!" doesn't usually result in someone going, "Y'know... come to think of it... he is..."

I honestly cant think of another manager that could say he won division titles with four different teams, and on top of that took Texas from last to 2nd.

There's a reason for that - no other manager kept losing his job after doing so because he'd been such a drunken pain in the ass.

You say that he begged for the job in Texas, and I think thats a little eggagerated.

I invite you to give Billy Hunter a call and ask him about it. Billy, now approaching 80 I believe and who later would be the Rangers manager himself, was a H.S. classmate of my mothers (Shannock Valley H.S., class of 1947-48, I believe, to be precise), and was in the Ranger organization at the time. Martin went to the Rangers offices looking for any on-field job at the major league level they'd give him, because essentially no one else in baseball would hire him at the time. His rep had preceeded him. The Rangers were looking for an attendance-getter, so they brought him on.

As for Stienbrenner, he played Martin like a game of checkers and tossed him out the door countless times after befriending him. Your gonna blame Billy for that?

No, not at all. It just seems to me that if he was an HOF-calibre field manager, some other team would've hired him during that stretch, then kept him on. No one other than George was willing to touch him from 1975 to 1980, and even then the one other team that did (Oakland) did so more as a P.R. move to put asses in the seats than as a real attempt to be a contender.

You're presuming that because I say he's not an HOF-level manager I don't like him. Quite the contrary - I loved his spirit on the field, and despite not really liking the Yankees I literally cried when I learned he'd died. In my book an HOF-level manager has a win percentage approaching at least .600, wins at least 3-4 WS titles, wins pennants on a consistent basis, and does so with some sense of stability.

You're 15? Really? I didn't know that. You state your case well regardless of age, incidentally. I just personally don't agree with it.

[infrared41]

disregard

[OnWis97]

Did he deserve to be fired as many times as he was? No way. The worst example, of course, was by then-Twins owner Calvin Griffith. It led to the start of the downfall of the Twins after they were very strong in the 1960s.

The 1970 Twins also won the division...without Billy.

I don't think the firing of Billy led to the downfall. It may have been the first bad move. But the downfall was all about Cal Griffith's lack of willingness or ability (I honestly don't know which) to spend. Even in the 1970s, he could not or did not keep up with salaries.

As for Martin, he's done some Hall-worthy things. Nevertheless, you can play (or, rather, manage) your way out of the hall. And by being such a distraction and "taking" so many years off due to his issues, I think he became just what some of you are saying: a man with a great baseball mind who had great moments, but not a great overall career.

[Mac the Knife]

Did he deserve to be fired as many times as he was? No way. The worst example, of course, was by then-Twins owner Calvin Griffith. It led to the start of the downfall of the Twins after they were very strong in the 1960s.

The 1970 Twins also won the division...without Billy.

I don't think the firing of Billy led to the downfall. It may have been the first bad move. But the downfall was all about Cal Griffith's lack of willingness or ability (I honestly don't know which) to spend. Even in the 1970s, he could not or did not keep up with salaries.

As for Martin, he's done some Hall-worthy things. Nevertheless, you can play (or, rather, manage) your way out of the hall. And by being such a distraction and "taking" so many years off due to his issues, I think he became just what some of you are saying: a man with a great baseball mind who had great moments, but not a great overall career.

Griffith also was a racist SOB who never let a player's ability or the team's overall performance get in the way of things like their skin tone.