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Kuhn, O'Malley, Williams elected to Baseball HOF


Mac the Knife

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NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- Former commissioner Bowie Kuhn was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame by the revamped Veterans Committee on Monday while his longtime adversary, players' union boss Marvin Miller, was left out for the second time this year.

Former Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley, managers Dick Williams and Billy Southworth and ex-Pirates owner Barney Dreyfuss also were elected.

Williams, the only living candidate chosen, said he and his wife, Norma, broke down and cried when they got the call on Monday morning.

"It just blew our mind," said Williams, who made his debut with the "Impossible Dream" Red Sox in 1967 and went on to win the 1972 and '73 World Series with the Oakland Athletics. "Under the (voting) regime they had previously ... I didn't think anybody would get there."

The veterans panel has been changed twice since 2001, when charges of cronyism followed the election of light-hitting glove man Bill Mazeroski. The original 15-member panel was expanded to include every living member of the Hall, but that group failed to elect anyone in three tries.

It was replaced by three separate panels -- one for players, one for managers and umpires and one for executives and pioneers, leaving Miller's fortunes largely in the hands of the same group he once fought for player benefits such as free agency and salary arbitration.

He did not come close, receiving only three of 12 possible votes.

"I think it was rigged, but not to keep me out. It was rigged to bring some of these in," Miller said by telephone after being informed of the results by The Associated Press. "It's not a pretty picture."

Manager Whitey Herzog and umpire Doug Harvey each missed induction by a single vote from a 16-member panel. The vets committee will not consider any players for the Hall until late next year.

Kuhn, who died in March at the age of 80, is the first commissioner elected since Happy Chandler in 1982.

"I am particularly pleased that former commissioner Bowie Kuhn is among those who have received this great honor," current commissioner Bud Selig said. "Bowie was a close friend and a respected leader who served as commissioner during an important period in history, amid a time of change."

O'Malley moved the Dodgers from Brooklyn to Los Angeles after the 1957 season -- a baseball version of the California Gold Rush that helped open the West to the national pastime. He received the minimum nine votes necessary for induction.

"Mr. O'Malley was a visionary by opening the gates to the West Coast. He linked the entire nation to the game of baseball," Dodgers Hall of Fame manager Tommy Lasorda said. "What a contribution he's made."

I think it was rigged, but not to keep me out. It was rigged to bring some of these in.

--Marvin Miller on the election results

Williams, in fact, played 112 games as a utility man for O'Malley's Dodgers from 1951-56, though he never appeared in a game during Brooklyn's 1955 championship season.

Dreyfuss, who received 10 of 12 votes, helped end the longtime feud between the American and National Leagues when he and Boston owner Henry Killilea agreed to meet on the diamond after the 1903 season.

The World Series was born.

Southworth, who was chosen on 13 of 16 ballots from the panel that considered umpires and managers, won four pennants and two World Series with the St. Louis Cardinals and Boston Braves.

Kuhn was the game's fifth commissioner, serving from 1969-84 and overseeing the sport when attendance tripled. During essentially the same era, Miller was leading the players to more lucrative and revolutionary gains, taking the average salary from $19,000 to $241,000 and pitching a virtual shutout against the owners in arbitration and collective bargaining.

"I was surprised that Marvin Miller did not receive the required support given his important impact on the game," Selig said.

Veterans Committee Voting

Candidates must receive 75 percent of the vote by either a 16-member first-ballot committee or 12-member second ballot committee

Managers/Umpires: x-Billy Southworth (81.3 percent), x-Dick Williams (81.3), Doug Harvey (68.8), Whitey Herzog (68.8), Danny Murtaugh (37.5), Hank O'Day (25). Davey Johnson, Billy Martin, Gene Mauch and Cy Rigler each received fewer than three votes.

Executives/Pioneers: x-Barney Dreyfuss (83 percent), x-Bowie Kuhn (83), x-Walter O'Malley (75), Ewing Kauffman (41.7), John Fetzer (33.3), Bob Howsam (25), Marvin Miller (25). Buzzie Bavasi, John McHale and Gabe Paul each received fewer than three votes.

x = elected to Hall of Fame

The 90-year-old Miller missed election by 10 votes earlier this year, when the committee included all living members of the Hall.

"It's demeaning, the whole thing, and I don't mean just to me. It's demeaning to the Hall and demeaning to the people in it," Miller said.

Hall of Fame slugger Harmon Killebrew was on the panel that examined executives and pioneers. He declined to reveal whether he voted for Miller.

"That doesn't mean that he's not going to get in," Killebrew said. "It was hard because we only have a certain number of votes."

Electors were asked to vote for no more than four candidates.

"Everybody on that list deserved to be there," Killebrew added. "He certainly had a tremendous impact."

In the vote earlier this year, O'Malley was supported by 44 percent and Kuhn 17 percent, while Miller received 63 percent. Among managers, Williams got 37 percent.

"There was a very open and frank discussion about each of the candidates," said Jane Forbes Clark, the Hall of Fame chairman. "Everyone on that committee knows Marvin and respects what he did for the game. And that showed in the discussions."

The new members will be inducted into the Hall of Fame on July 27 in Cooperstown, N.Y. Results of voting on eligible players by the Baseball Writers' Association of America will be released Jan. 8.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Frankly, I don't think Williams, Martin or Herzog really cut the HOF mustard. Herzog in my mind comes closest, and if he makes it someday I really wouldn't argue it much, but Williams and Martin deserve to be in the HOF about as much as the jockstrap I wore in Little League - and that ain't a whole helluva lot.

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Major, MAJOR snubs here. That darn Veterans Commitee is all jacked up. Gil Hodges gets left out on the players ballot, then Billy Martin gets left out on the Managers/Executives/Pioneers ballot. Im only 15, but I know that Billy Martin was one of the greatest managers ever. I dont care if he was onery and got fired all the time. I did a report on Martin this year in my Journalism class and when I did all the reasearch I was blown away at how successful of a manager he was. It seemed everything he touched turned to win. Division title with Minnesota. Another in Detroit. From last to second with Texas. Two straight world series appearances and one win with the Yankees. Another division title with Oakland. If you can be that successful with that many teams, youre an unbelievable manager. Enough said, Billy should be in the hall.

As for Marvin Miller, i dont even know who he is. Neither do I know who Dick Williams and Billy Southworth and Barney Dreyfuss are. I will say that Walter O' Malley did deserve to get in. Kuhn was a sure thing. Of course he deserved to get in.

I just hate how this stupid Veterans commitee works. They either snub the most deserving players (Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Minnie Minoso) and Managers (Billy!) and put in people no one has ever heard of or remember, or they dont put anyone in at all. C'mon, something has to change here.

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Im only 15,

As for Marvin Miller, i dont even know who he is. Neither do I know who Dick Williams and Billy Southworth and Barney Dreyfuss are. I will say that Walter O' Malley did deserve to get in. Kuhn was a sure thing. Of course he deserved to get in.

Looking at the bold stuff above, I think one is responsible for the other but that's OK. Hopefully us old guys can help a little.

You can thank Marvin Miller for your favorite team being able to sign free agents among the many other things he did to help the players and the players union. His contributions to the game are precisely why he'll never get elected to the Hall while he's alive.

Dick Williams managed the Red Sox during the "Impossible Dream" season of 1967. He also managed the A's to a couple World Series titles in the 70's and he was at the helm in 1984 when the Padres made their first World Series appearance. His resume is similar to Billy Martin's.

Bill Southworth was a fairly successful manager for the Cards and Braves.

Barney Dreyfuss owned the Pirates and created the World Series.

I don't think any of them (Martin included) have HOF credentials.

Hope that helps. B)

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Im only 15,

As for Marvin Miller, i dont even know who he is. Neither do I know who Dick Williams and Billy Southworth and Barney Dreyfuss are. I will say that Walter O' Malley did deserve to get in. Kuhn was a sure thing. Of course he deserved to get in.

Looking at the bold stuff above, I think one is responsible for the other but that's OK. Hopefully us old guys can help a little.

You can thank Marvin Miller for your favorite team being able to sign free agents among the many other things he did to help the players and the players union. His contributions to the game are precisely why he'll never get elected to the Hall while he's alive.

Dick Williams managed the Red Sox during the "Impossible Dream" season of 1967. He also managed the A's to a couple World Series titles in the 70's and he was at the helm in 1984 when the Padres made their first World Series appearance. His resume is similar to Billy Martin's.

Bill Southworth was a fairly successful manager for the Cards and Braves.

Barney Dreyfuss owned the Pirates and created the World Series.

I don't think any of them (Martin included) have HOF credentials.

Hope that helps. B)

I'll agree with you on all except Miller... Billy Martin was terribly overrated as a manager. He never had long-term success anywhere he went his entire career.

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I'll agree with you on all except Miller... Billy Martin was terribly overrated as a manager. He never had long-term success anywhere he went his entire career.

Yeah, I agree, Miller should be in. I didn't mean to include him with the others. Miller's problem is that even old time players don't like him much. He's at least 20 years from having a real shot.

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Im only 15,

As for Marvin Miller, i dont even know who he is. Neither do I know who Dick Williams and Billy Southworth and Barney Dreyfuss are. I will say that Walter O' Malley did deserve to get in. Kuhn was a sure thing. Of course he deserved to get in.

Looking at the bold stuff above, I think one is responsible for the other but that's OK. Hopefully us old guys can help a little.

You can thank Marvin Miller for your favorite team being able to sign free agents among the many other things he did to help the players and the players union. His contributions to the game are precisely why he'll never get elected to the Hall while he's alive.

Dick Williams managed the Red Sox during the "Impossible Dream" season of 1967. He also managed the A's to a couple World Series titles in the 70's and he was at the helm in 1984 when the Padres made their first World Series appearance. His resume is similar to Billy Martin's.

Bill Southworth was a fairly successful manager for the Cards and Braves.

Barney Dreyfuss owned the Pirates and created the World Series.

I don't think any of them (Martin included) have HOF credentials.

Hope that helps. B)

Yeah people always get me for my age. But I know a whole lot more than people think. Like, without even having to look it up I could tell you that HOFer Sam Rice had 2,987 hits and played for the Senators and Indians from 1915-1933.

Eddie Mathews, when he retired in 1968, ranked 7th all time in home runs with 512. He also accumulated 2,315 hits in his career from 1952-1968.

Hall of Famer Candy Cummings is known to be the first ever curveballer, and leaned the skill throwing rocks on the ocean shore near his home.

Yeah, its not cause im 15. Its just cause I unfortunately havent seen thier names anywhere. I knew who O' Malley and Kuhn were, you have to give me that lol :P

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Im only 15,

As for Marvin Miller, i dont even know who he is. Neither do I know who Dick Williams and Billy Southworth and Barney Dreyfuss are. I will say that Walter O' Malley did deserve to get in. Kuhn was a sure thing. Of course he deserved to get in.

Looking at the bold stuff above, I think one is responsible for the other but that's OK. Hopefully us old guys can help a little.

You can thank Marvin Miller for your favorite team being able to sign free agents among the many other things he did to help the players and the players union. His contributions to the game are precisely why he'll never get elected to the Hall while he's alive.

Dick Williams managed the Red Sox during the "Impossible Dream" season of 1967. He also managed the A's to a couple World Series titles in the 70's and he was at the helm in 1984 when the Padres made their first World Series appearance. His resume is similar to Billy Martin's.

Bill Southworth was a fairly successful manager for the Cards and Braves.

Barney Dreyfuss owned the Pirates and created the World Series.

I don't think any of them (Martin included) have HOF credentials.

Hope that helps. B)

Yeah people always get me for my age. But I know a whole lot more than people think. Like, without even having to look it up I could tell you that HOFer Sam Rice had 2,987 hits and played for the Senators and Indians from 1915-1933.

Eddie Mathews, when he retired in 1968, ranked 7th all time in home runs with 512. He also accumulated 2,315 hits in his career from 1952-1968.

Hall of Famer Candy Cummings is known to be the first ever curveballer, and leaned the skill throwing rocks on the ocean shore near his home.

Yeah, its not cause im 15. Its just cause I unfortunately havent seen thier names anywhere. I knew who O' Malley and Kuhn were, you have to give me that lol :P

Cummings wasn't throwing rocks, he was throwing clam shells.

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Yeah people always get me for my age. But I know a whole lot more than people think. Like, without even having to look it up I could tell you that HOFer Sam Rice had 2,987 hits and played for the Senators and Indians from 1915-1933.

Eddie Mathews, when he retired in 1968, ranked 7th all time in home runs with 512. He also accumulated 2,315 hits in his career from 1952-1968.

Hall of Famer Candy Cummings is known to be the first ever curveballer, and leaned the skill throwing rocks on the ocean shore near his home.

Yeah, its not cause im 15. Its just cause I unfortunately havent seen thier names anywhere. I knew who O' Malley and Kuhn were, you have to give me that lol :P

If you know all that then how in the hell did you manage to never hear of Dick Williams or Marvin Miller? Especially Marvin Miller? We're they not in the books you have read or something? That's just odd.

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Yeah people always get me for my age. But I know a whole lot more than people think. Like, without even having to look it up I could tell you that HOFer Sam Rice had 2,987 hits and played for the Senators and Indians from 1915-1933.

Eddie Mathews, when he retired in 1968, ranked 7th all time in home runs with 512. He also accumulated 2,315 hits in his career from 1952-1968.

Hall of Famer Candy Cummings is known to be the first ever curveballer, and leaned the skill throwing rocks on the ocean shore near his home.

Yeah, its not cause im 15. Its just cause I unfortunately havent seen thier names anywhere. I knew who O' Malley and Kuhn were, you have to give me that lol :P

If you know all that then how in the hell did you manage to never hear of Dick Williams or Marvin Miller? Especially Marvin Miller? We're they not in the books you have read or something? That's just odd.

Yeah, seriously I havent come across them. IDK why, but i just havent. I knew who O' Malley was from some Dodger documentaries Ive watched, and obviously I knew who Kuhn was. Every sports fan knows who he was. But yeah, I seriously had never heard of Williams or Miller.

Oh and correction, I read my book again and I admit I got it wrong on Cummings: he was throwing Clam shells, not rocks. Thanks for catching me on that marlinfan.

Yeah IDK, I read alot of history books on baseball and other sports and I guess you could say I have a photographic memory, so I come across stats and theyre drilled in my head.

HOFer Hack Wilson, who holds the record for most RBIs in a season with 191, finished his career with 244 homers. Just another stat to try and boggle y'all :P

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Uh, sorry. No. It isn't:

1969 - Minnesota (97-65; fired)

1970 - unemployed (an HOF manager gets fired after winning a division title... in Minnesota?)

1971 - Detroit (91-71)

1972 - Detroit (86-70)

1973 - Detroit (71-63; fired)

1973 - Texas (9-14)

1974 - Texas (84-76)

1975 - Texas (44-51; fired)

1975 - New York AL (30-26)

1976 - New York AL (97-62)

1977 - New York AL (100-62)

1978 - New York AL (52-42; fired)

1979 - New York AL (55-40; hired during season, fired after season)

1980 - Oakland (83-79)

1981 - Oakland (64-45)

1982 - Oakland (68-94; fired)

1983 - New York AL (91-71; fired)

1984 - unemployed

1985 - New York AL (91-54; fired)

1986 - unemployed

1987 - unemployed

1988 - New York AL (40-28)

Career R.S. Record?

1,253 - 1,013. 2 world series titles; 8 firings.

Not exactly HOF material in my book.

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Uh, sorry. No. It isn't:

1969 - Minnesota (97-65; fired)

1970 - unemployed (an HOF manager gets fired after winning a division title... in Minnesota?)

1971 - Detroit (91-71)

1972 - Detroit (86-70)

1973 - Detroit (71-63; fired)

1973 - Texas (9-14)

1974 - Texas (84-76)

1975 - Texas (44-51; fired)

1975 - New York AL (30-26)

1976 - New York AL (97-62)

1977 - New York AL (100-62)

1978 - New York AL (52-42; fired)

1979 - New York AL (55-40; hired during season, fired after season)

1980 - Oakland (83-79)

1981 - Oakland (64-45)

1982 - Oakland (68-94; fired)

1983 - New York AL (91-71; fired)

1984 - unemployed

1985 - New York AL (91-54; fired)

1986 - unemployed

1987 - unemployed

1988 - New York AL (40-28)

Career R.S. Record?

1,253 - 1,013. 2 world series titles; 8 firings.

Not exactly HOF material in my book.

Martin had a good baseball mind. He was also a guy who drank too much, fought with players, owners, and fans, burned up pitching staffs, ripped his team in the press, and generally behaved like an idiot. Not HOF material in any book.

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I have to stand up for Billy Martin here. I don't know if he's Hall of Fame material, but he's sure close.

Martin's teams won their division six times, took second four times and took third four times. That ain't bad.

He was known for building teams up, although he couldn't seem to stay the course with those teams. He was questionable in dealing with pitching, but was an absolutely brilliant baseball mind in the other areas. Under Billy Martin, Rod Carew stole home seven times in one season (1969).

Did he deserve to be fired as many times as he was? No way. The worst example, of course, was by then-Twins owner Calvin Griffith. It led to the start of the downfall of the Twins after they were very strong in the 1960s.

He was a controversial manager, but overall, a very good manager, one worthy of consideration for the Hall. I don't think he'll ever get in just because of the controversy.

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I have to stand up for Billy Martin here. I don't know if he's Hall of Fame material, but he's sure close.

Martin's teams won their division six times, took second four times and took third four times. That ain't bad.

He was known for building teams up, although he couldn't seem to stay the course with those teams. He was questionable in dealing with pitching, but was an absolutely brilliant baseball mind in the other areas. Under Billy Martin, Rod Carew stole home seven times in one season (1969).

Did he deserve to be fired as many times as he was? No way. The worst example, of course, was by then-Twins owner Calvin Griffith. It led to the start of the downfall of the Twins after they were very strong in the 1960s.

He was a controversial manager, but overall, a very good manager, one worthy of consideration for the Hall. I don't think he'll ever get in just because of the controversy.

He's 50-50. His "pros" don't do enough to overshadow his "cons."

Without a doubt he was a great baseball mind. He also won two pennants with the best team money could buy, but he did win with those teams. He also caused a ton of trouble with the Yankees. In 1978 he was fired and the Yankees overcame a 14 game deficit in route to a repeat. If he was so great why did that '78 team catch fire after he was fired?

His Twins team won the AL west in the division's first year of existence. He beat out such powerhouses as the expansion Seattle Pilots, the expansion KC Royals and those perennial contenders The White Sox. Two teams finished over .500 in the AL West in 1969, the Twins and the A's. The Twins also had a pretty tough lineup that included Carew, Oliva, Killebrew, Nettles, Tovar, in a very weak division.

He was also horrible with pitchers. He ruined a very good young pitching staff when he was in Oakland. That '81 A's team made the playoffs as a "1st half" winner in a strike year. 1981 was the same year that the team with the best overall record in baseball didn't make the post season

Then there was all the off the field stuff. And there was a lot of it.

In short, Billy Martin was a great manager if you needed one good year out of your team. By year two his players were suffering Billy Burnout and by year three he was usually headed elsewhere. Billy was a great manager...for a short time in each of his many stops. I just don't think a history of your teams getting worse the longer you manage them is what makes a HOF manager.

I liked the guy as a manager. If I had one game to win he's the guy I'd want calling the shots. I just don't think he's a hall of famer. He wasn't consistently great. He started out great and flamed out...every time.

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