Official 2004 NFL Week 1 Discussion Thread

[Nick 1733]

Alrighty, I thought I'd throw this up there today since all but one of the games have been played. Post whatever you'd like about week 1 in the NFL.

My Suprises of the Week:

-Teams

Cleveland Browns (defeating Baltimore 20-3, WOW)

Arizona Cardinals (should have beat St Louis but lost 10-17)

-Players

QB Drew Brees, SD (17/24, 209 YDS, 2 TD)

RB Curtins Martin, NYJ (29 CAR, 196 YDS, TD - 3 REC, 7 YDS, TD)

RB Quinten Griffin, DEN (23 CAR, 156 YDS, 2 TD, FUM - 1 REC, 1 YDS, TD)

RB Chris Brown, TEN (16 CAR, 100 YDS - 1 REC, 7 YDS, *Left game in 2nd Quarter w/ mildly sprained ankle)

RB Warrick Dunn, ATL (19 CAR, 63 YDS, 2 TD)

My Disappointments of the Week:

-Teams

Baltimore Ravens (got whipped by Cleveland 3-20)

St. Louis Rams (were outplayed by the Arizona Cardinals despite winning)

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All I have to say being a Broncos fan is: Clinton Who?

[See Red]

All I have to say being a Broncos fan is: Clinton Who?

Amen. Let me ask you, when that trade was first composed -- were you in favor of it, or not? Be honest because I didn't know ANYBODY, almost literally, that were in favor of that trade until the game tonight. And the ones that were, I had to convince them this was the 2nd best trade the Broncos have ever made.

I think that Broncos game was the worst officiated I've seen in a long time. It was awful, in terms of the referees.

The two early games I got (no dish) were Pittsburgh/Oakland and Washington/Tampa Bay and let me say, those games were awful to watch.

Actually, in retrospect, almost all of the games weren't anything special with the exception of Jacksonville/Buffalo (Still don't have an opinion on whether it was a catch), Atlanta/SF, Indy/NE on Thursday, and Denver/KC.

I'm still excited about what Champ did for the Broncos tonight. He was huge.

[Nick 1733]

All I have to say being a Broncos fan is: Clinton Who?

Amen. Let me ask you, when that trade was first composed -- were you in favor of it, or not? Be honest because I didn't know ANYBODY, almost literally, that were in favor of that trade until the game tonight. And the ones that were, I had to convince them this was the 2nd best trade the Broncos have ever made.

I was totally in favor of the trade, I mean it took me two days after the trade to get onboard but I so was.

Especially with Denver's history with RB's under Shanahan.

The main reason is because Portis opened his mouth at the pro bowl saying he desirved more money, NO RB with Denver has EVER done that before, including the all time rushing leaders in Denver's history, Terrell Davis and Floyd Little.

I loved Theisman sticking up for Mike with that trade, first commentator that I heard who was in favor of that trade.

I just wonder if while Griffin was running if anyone else saw a # 20 on his jersey with those moves.

[See Red]

I was on board from day one. I would've been skeptical had it not been for the game against Indy last year int he regular season when Griffin lit them up. And I knew Champ Bailey was head and shoulders above the rest in terms of being a shut down corner.

And yeah, I think you're correct about commentators and how they felt about the trade. What's even worse is the media talking about the 'struggling' Denver Broncos offense. First they doubt Shanahan's ability to field a good RB, and then they doubt his offense? They should be ashamed. Lol. The next time a Mike Shanahan offense is mediocre will be the first.

[CaolinaJoe]

Before you go enshrining Griffin, who did have a great game, let's wait til they face a team that actually has a defense. In case you missed it, Portis had a better day against a much better D(I guess Griffin did have better numbers, so I should take that back.)

Bailey had a good game against a team that's best receivers are a TE and RB. I didn't buy it when it happened and still don't. That's not to say that in 3 or 4 weeks if they are still working ouy I won't. It takes more than one game to analyze a trade like that.

I have no problem with a guy saying he's worth more money. Evereyone who has evere worked says they are worth more money than they are paid. Now, was he gonna holdout for more money? That I don't know(help me out there). I can see a guy complaining for money if it is from a contract he signed when he was a rookie, most(obviously not top 10 picks) of those guys get screwed(if you can really be screwed making millions).The life of a football player is too short, they need to get paid while they can. Guys that bitch on a second contract(mainly a baseball thing) I have no use for. The first contract the team has the advantage, after that it belongs to the player.

[pcgd]

Goooooooooooo BEARS!

From the sounds of it, I'm almost glad I couldn't watch it. Stupid Fox. Playing the game that's 30 mins away from me! I bet next week the Bears/Pack won't be on. I may take a road trip just so I can watch the stupid game. BAH!

Its gonna be a looooooooong season.

[Magus]

i was busy doing other stuff so i didn't watch the ball games. i mainly flipped through the channels.

naturally the texans lost again. yet still a serious contender for the super bowl.

[Cyclopsis Joe]

About Fox: I don't know why they thought they should show Vikes and Cowboys around here, either.

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All I have to say being a Broncos fan is: Clinton Who?

Denver who?

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Joe Gibbs, you rock!

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In other news: Eddie George and the Cowboys...What the hell was that coach of their's thinking? From what I heard, he had an (at least) decent first half, and they just pulled him out.

I guess they wanted to lose to the Vikings..

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Oh and uh, in case you missed it..Atlanta won.

[See Red]

Before you go enshrining Griffin, who did have a great game, let's wait til they face a team that actually has a defense. In case you missed it, Portis had a better day against a much better D(I guess Griffin did have better numbers, so I should take that back.)

Bailey had a good game against a team that's best receivers are a TE and RB. I didn't buy it when it happened and still don't. That's not to say that in 3 or 4 weeks if they are still working out I won't. It takes more than one game to analyze a trade like that.

Actually -- Every report I had heard about the Chiefs defense leading up to this new season is that they would be a much better unit than years past. They had the talent, it was the system that has been bad for the last couple of years and now they've changed to one that has worked in the past. The Chiefs starting defense did very well in the preseason, as they're a far more aggressive unit, as opposed to the approach taken last season. If you watched the game, Quentin Griffin wasn't getting nearly as many of the holes as Clinton Portis was getting. Aside from the huge hole on the very first play of the game in which Clinton didn't even get touched (Does it really take much skill to run through a hole that a car could fit through?), Clinton didn't have that great of a game. And the Bucs defenses biggest weakness last season was their defense against the run up the middle -- now Warren Sapp is gone, do you expect them to be any better at that this year?

Not to mention, this was the first KC/Denver game since Clinton Portis gave the Chiefs all the locker room material they'd ever need -- remember this? The Chiefs did.

And in Clinton's first game against the Chiefs last year, which was a weaker Chiefs defense, he put up numbers that are almost a carbon copy of what Griffin's were this week.

And on the subject of Champ Bailey -- Recievers say he's the best shut down corner in the league. Bailey has gone entire games without having a ball thrown his way. And no matter how he gets his yardage, or to where he throws the ball, Trent Green still got 4,000 yards last season. These recievers are improved, as they added Dante Hall is their #1 or #2, when he rarely played last season. Tony Gonzalez isn't any normal Tight End -- he's a 6'5, 255 lbs reciever that's stuck at Tight End and he got shut down by a man that he dwarfs, in Bailey. The Redskins WILL miss Champ Bailey -- It's easy for Fred Smoot and Shawn Springs to look good against a team who's best reciever had less than 40 catches last season, and then even he got hurt. And if Champ Bailey worked at it, and was allowed to do it by the Broncos coaches, he could be a top 15 WR in the league, too.

I don't understand how this trade can be thought of to be bad. If Quentin Griffin wasn't the guy, it would've been Tatum Bell or Garrison Hearst, a man who's had success in his career, elsewhere. Mike Shanahan has the backs, and has the offensive line to make the running game work without Portis. He's found RB after RB after RB in Denver but he's never ben able to find a cornerback.

[Nick 1733]

Portis did intend to hold-out for more money. He said so at the Pro Bowl in February.

Griffin is a much better quality to a team like Denver's, they don't need Portis' attitude in the locker room, Shanahan disposed of such attitude when he asked the team to decide weither or not Kennison would be allowed back on the team after he retired in the middle of the 2001 season.

Griffin, Bell, Hearst and you can't forget about Anderson who will be back next year, are all great backs, Hearst when needed, Griffin and Bell for the future AND present.

Bailey will shut down ANY WR 98% of the time. He is also a great weapon on offense too.

So all in all Denver got the MUCH better deal, Bailey & Bell for Portis. It will be proven ALL year long, Portis won't be able to do everything for Washington, it would kill him.

So Denver got the better deal, and Denver will win the AFC West if not the AFC Championship and Super Bowl.

[STL FANATIC]

As expected, the Rams sucked pretty much.

Martz is a moron. Bulger is terrible.

At least our O-line was surprisingly good, and we have awesome RBs and WRs.

It's gonna be a long year.

Not only were we lucky to be playing the Cardinals, we were lucky to beat them anyway.

[jkrdevil]

The Washington-Denver trade was fair trade for both sides. Washington needed a qualilty RB while Denver needed and CB. The reason why there has been so many good running backs in Denver for the past decade is because of 1 reason and that's because they have a great athletic offensive line. They don't need to have the great RB to be able to running the ball.

I've watched most of the Bronco games on the dish the past few years and the thing I've always said that held them back from getting back to the super bowl was their secondary. They finally did that this year and I fully expect them to be back contending for the Super Bowl.

[CaolinaJoe]

Before you go enshrining Griffin, who did have a great game, let's wait til they face a team that actually has a defense.  In case you missed it, Portis had a better day against a much better D(I guess Griffin did have better numbers, so I should take that back.)

Bailey had a good game against a team that's best receivers are a TE and RB.  I didn't buy it when it happened and still don't.  That's not to say that in 3 or 4 weeks if they are still working out I won't.  It takes more than one game to analyze a trade like that.

Pre season means absolutely nothing. Teams don't play there starters but for what about 5 quarters of 4 games.

Actually -- Every report I had heard about the Chiefs defense leading up to this new season is that they would be a much better unit than years past. They had the talent, it was the system that has been bad for the last couple of years and now they've changed to one that has worked in the past. The Chiefs starting defense did very well in the preseason, as they're a far more aggressive unit, as opposed to the approach taken last season. If you watched the game, Quentin Griffin wasn't getting nearly as many of the holes as Clinton Portis was getting. Aside from the huge hole on the very first play of the game in which Clinton didn't even get touched (Does it really take much skill to run through a hole that a car could fit through?), Clinton didn't have that great of a game. And the Bucs defenses biggest weakness last season was their defense against the run up the middle -- now Warren Sapp is gone, do you expect them to be any better at that this year?

Not to mention, this was the first KC/Denver game since Clinton Portis gave the Chiefs all the locker room material they'd ever need -- remember this? The Chiefs did.

And in Clinton's first game against the Chiefs last year, which was a weaker Chiefs defense, he put up numbers that are almost a carbon copy of what Griffin's were this week.

And on the subject of Champ Bailey -- Recievers say he's the best shut down corner in the league. Bailey has gone entire games without having a ball thrown his way. And no matter how he gets his yardage, or to where he throws the ball, Trent Green still got 4,000 yards last season. These recievers are improved, as they added Dante Hall is their #1 or #2, when he rarely played last season. Tony Gonzalez isn't any normal Tight End -- he's a 6'5, 255 lbs reciever that's stuck at Tight End and he got shut down by a man that he dwarfs, in Bailey. The Redskins WILL miss Champ Bailey -- It's easy for Fred Smoot and Shawn Springs to look good against a team who's best reciever had less than 40 catches last season, and then even he got hurt. And if Champ Bailey worked at it, and was allowed to do it by the Broncos coaches, he could be a top 15 WR in the league, too.

I don't understand how this trade can be thought of to be bad. If Quentin Griffin wasn't the guy, it would've been Tatum Bell or Garrison Hearst, a man who's had success in his career, elsewhere. Mike Shanahan has the backs, and has the offensive line to make the running game work without Portis. He's found RB after RB after RB in Denver but he's never ben able to find a cornerback.

I watched both games actually. Griffin had huge holes,if you watched the same game as me, he got his yards on 23 carries and beautiful foot work. With runs of 10,25,16,47,19 for 117 on 6 carries. So he had 34 on his other 16 carries(2.1 per carry). Portis had 2 good runs the 64 & a 16( 4.0 per carry). So he had 68 yds on 27 carries other than the big 2. He had to gring out yards all day. So if you exclude big runs portis had a better day.

Regardless of the reports you heard, even during the game they talked about what a poor run defense KC has.

Hall is not their #1 guy, he's not even the #1 WR let alone target. Bailey did not cover Gonzalez or Holmes, who Green hit for 1600 of his 4000 last year. Bailey shutting down Kennison, and the LB's shutting down Holmes and Gonzo on the passing game is why they won. Bailey was instrumwntal in last nights game, but not as big as Griffin running on a lousy D. And going by Washington's record while the best "shut down corner" was there, he doesn't win games. He's just not responsible if they lose. Portis helped the Broncos make the playoffs twice, how many times has Bailey seen post season.

Not to say in the end it won't work, I just need a bigger sample than one game.

[CaolinaJoe]

Portis did intend to hold-out for more money. He said so at the Pro Bowl in February.

Griffin is a much better quality to a team like Denver's, they don't need Portis' attitude in the locker room, Shanahan disposed of such attitude when he asked the team to decide weither or not Kennison would be allowed back on the team after he retired in the middle of the 2001 season.

Griffin, Bell, Hearst and you can't forget about Anderson who will be back next year, are all great backs, Hearst when needed, Griffin and Bell for the future AND present.

Bailey will shut down ANY WR 98% of the time. He is also a great weapon on offense too.

So all in all Denver got the MUCH better deal, Bailey & Bell for Portis. It will be proven ALL year long, Portis won't be able to do everything for Washington, it would kill him.

So Denver got the better deal, and Denver will win the AFC West if not the AFC Championship and Super Bowl.

Thanks, I fully agree with getting rid of a bad attitude from the locker room.

As far as Bailey on D and O, there's a reason why guys don't play both anymore. Better to be great at one position then OK at 2. Guys who play both today are usually headcases needing their ego stroked. Sapp and Sanders come right to mind.

Bell still has to get playing time to show any thing. Hearst is getting old. Anderson appears to have injury problems, although you'll never he me say a negative word about the Devil Dog.

Portis doesn't have to do everything in Washington. But Gibbs system is built for him. They have 2 quality receivers plus Portis out of the backfield.

[pcgd]

The Washington-Denver trade was fair trade for both sides. Washington needed a qualilty RB while Denver needed and CB. The reason why there has been so many good running backs in Denver for the past decade is because of 1 reason and that's because they have a great athletic offensive line. They don't need to have the great RB to be able to running the ball.

I've watched most of the Bronco games on the dish the past few years and the thing I've always said that held them back from getting back to the super bowl was their secondary. They finally did that this year and I fully expect them to be back contending for the Super Bowl.

i could get 1000 yards with their o-line. and I run a 4.3 40. (minus that decimal...aka a 43 sec 40)

[rockchalk]

>Okay, first of all, the Chiefs defense still sucks, but it did seem to be a little better at times. Griffin didn't have the consistently huge holes that Portis did last season against KC, but he is a different style of runner and can make use of smaller spaces. I think if he stays healthy, Griffin could be the best of the bunch to come out of the Rockies in the last 10 years. He's a perfect combination of Sanders-like quickness and moves and the "one-cut" running system.

>As for the Chiefs overall, I'm a little worried about the production of the recievers, but after seeing Priest running against the Donkeys, he looks a little quicker to the hole, if that's possible. I really don't think there is much to evaluate right now after one week, but the D is a little better, and Tynes and Cheek looked like NFL quality replacements at special teams. I really think that the first true test will be next week at home against the Panthers, even without Steve Smith. (Not that playing at Mile High isn't a true test, but given the history of the Chiefs there, I've unfortunately come to expect a loss there and there isn't much to be gained trying to evaluate a game there against a full season, if that makes any sense at all)

[See Red]

Bailey actually did cover Gonzalez on multiple occassions, and on multiple other occassions, Tony Gonzalez was being covered by Kenoit Kennedy. And Hall is actually listed as the Chiefs #1 or #2 WR, according to these sites, but I'm not saying their absolutely correct, but I'm not the only one who sees him as being high on their depth chart.

See Kansas City Chiefs Depth Chart

Or Kansas City Chiefs Depth Chart

Or Kansas City Chiefs Depth Chart

And I don't see how you can compare what Champ Bailey did for the Redskins with what Clinton Portis did for the Broncos. Because the Broncos have been a playoff contender regardless of who their RB is. It's not a coincidence that Terrell Davis was a 2,000 yard rusher, Olandis Gary got 1,500, Mike Anderson got 1,500, and and Clinton Portis got 1,500 in back to back seasons. Portis touched the ball 25 times a game. Champ Bailey went entire games without having a ball thrown to his side of the field. Champ Bailey had no part in putting points on the field -- and he had very little part in stopping the run on defense, which was the Redskins weakness during a good part of the stay. Champ Bailey couldn't control the lack of a good QB that the Redskins had, he couldn't control Trung Canidate being their RB his last year there, he couldn't control Steve Spurrier running a Run and Gun offense. All Champ could do was stop WR's, which he did very affectively, and run back punts.

Clinton Portis didn't make the playoffs his first year with the Broncos. He couldn't do it without Jake Plummer so he wasn't nearly as much of a difference maker as people make him out to be. Clinton also had 2 of the best run blocking WR's in the league in McCaffrey and Smith, Quentin doesn't have McCaffrey. Although I will say that Lelie did a very good job of that.

I'm not saying that Clinton Portis isn't a good RB. I think he is, but he got way too much credit for his offensive line's work. The run defense (Up the Middle) he played against was criticized in their game. I'm not saying the Bucs aren't good at stopping the run, but they were weak up the middle last year, and will continue to be without Warren Sapp this year, because the Buccaneers defense has always been based on speed.

The fact is... and the biggest reason this was a great trade for the Broncos is -- they haven't been able to find a great CB since Shanahan got there. Now they have one. And they STILL have a very good RB. How can you question whether this was good for the Broncos?

HOWEVER -- I do agree that it's tough to determine exactly how well this trade works out until a few weeks down the road.

[CaolinaJoe]

Bailey actually did cover Gonzalez on multiple occassions, and on multiple other occassions, Tony Gonzalez was being covered by Kenoit Kennedy.  And Hall is actually listed as the Chiefs #1 or #2 WR, according to these sites, but I'm not saying their absolutely correct, but I'm not the only one who sees him as being high on their depth chart.

See Kansas City Chiefs Depth Chart

Or Kansas City Chiefs Depth Chart

Or Kansas City Chiefs Depth Chart

And I don't see how you can compare what Champ Bailey did for the Redskins with what Clinton Portis did for the Broncos.  Because the Broncos have been a playoff contender regardless of who their RB is.  It's not a coincidence that Terrell Davis was a 2,000 yard rusher, Olandis Gary got 1,500, Mike Anderson got 1,500, and and Clinton Portis got 1,500 in back to back seasons.  Portis touched the ball 25 times a game.  Champ Bailey went entire games without having a ball thrown to his side of the field.  Champ Bailey had no part in putting points on the field -- and he had very little part in stopping the run on defense, which was the Redskins weakness during a good part of the stay.  Champ Bailey couldn't control the lack of a good QB that the Redskins had, he couldn't control Trung Canidate being their RB his last year there, he couldn't control Steve Spurrier running a Run and Gun offense.  All Champ could do was stop WR's, which he did very affectively, and run back punts.

Clinton Portis didn't make the playoffs his first year with the Broncos.  He couldn't do it without Jake Plummer so he wasn't nearly as much of a difference maker as people make him out to be.  Clinton also had 2 of the best run blocking WR's in the league in McCaffrey and Smith, Quentin doesn't have McCaffrey.  Although I will say that Lelie did a very good job of that.

I'm not saying that Clinton Portis isn't a good RB.  I think he is, but he got way too much credit for his offensive line's work.  The run defense (Up the Middle) he played against was criticized in their game.  I'm not saying the Bucs aren't good at stopping the run, but they were weak up the middle last year, and will continue to be without Warren Sapp this year, because the Buccaneers defense has always been based on speed.

The fact is... and the biggest reason this was a great trade for the Broncos is -- they haven't been able to find a great CB since Shanahan got there.  Now they have one.  And they STILL have a very good RB.  How can you question whether this was good for the Broncos?

HOWEVER -- I do agree that it's tough to determine exactly how well this trade works out until a few weeks down the road.

I'll concede Hall is listed as #1WR, but he is the #3 option on that team.

And as long as football has been around RB's have gotten the credit for what the O-line does. There is no RB who has his exploits talked about, that they throw in the guard or tackles name. They get the Rolexs not the headlines. Not OJ, Walter, Brown, Smith, none of them.

As you rouyself said RB's put points on the board and win games, not CB's. They gave up a guy wgho was good for 130 yards a game and a touchdown, for a guy who at his best(being shown respect for his cover ability) never has the ball thrown his way to make a play. I think they got Bailey because he was the best player the Redskins had, and they were one of the few teams that could afford a new contract for Portis. It was a deal to make sure that Denver didn't lose out all the way around.

Right now Griffin is making Shanahan look like a genius, and if it lasts all year he is. Deion in his prime was considered the best "shut-down" corner around, would anyone have traded Sanders or Smith for him, and he has 18 career touchdowns. I just can't see how a 1500 yard RB is equal to a cornerback.

Any game where the D is giving up 150 yards, the D-line is gonna get critcized. Kinda hard to give up that kinda yardage and praise them. TB got criticized cause they were supposed to be better than that. KC didn't get critcized as much as Griffin and his "Sanders like" moves got praised, because nothing was expected of KC.

[See Red]

You raise a lot of good points. But Champ Bailey is intended to be a play maker. He's supposed to stop the playmakers from doing so. I disagree that they took Champ Bailey because he was the only player they could get for Portis. Secondary has been the Broncos biggest weakness since Shanahan has been there, while they've managed to pump out RB after RB after RB.

And I'll agree with you on the Dante Hall point. While I don't consider him Trent Greens #1 target, I think the KC coaching staff thinks highly enough of him to put him at the top of the depth chart.

Deion is also considered one of the best shut down corners of all time. Not just the best of his time.

Deion also only didn't get very many interceptions once he started becoming one of the best in the league (During and after his year with the 49ers). In fact, his numbers, in terms of interceptions during his Cowboys and Redskins days are very similar to those of Champ Baileys. And most of his INT's came off Special Teams, not INT's. Outside of 1 year, he never had more than 3 INT's in 5 years in Dallas.

And although I don't believe in this saying, and have argued against it many times -- they do say "Defense wins Championships".

Either way, it's refreshing to have a mature conversation with somebody here.

[CaolinaJoe]

You raise a lot of good points. But Champ Bailey is intended to be a play maker. He's supposed to stop the playmakers from doing so. I disagree that they took Champ Bailey because he was the only player they could get for Portis. Secondary has been the Broncos biggest weakness since Shanahan has been there, while they've managed to pump out RB after RB after RB.

And I'll agree with you on the Dante Hall point. While I don't consider him Trent Greens #1 target, I think the KC coaching staff thinks highly enough of him to put him at the top of the depth chart.

Deion is also considered one of the best shut down corners of all time. Not just the best of his time.

Deion also only didn't get very many interceptions once he started becoming one of the best in the league (During and after his year with the 49ers). In fact, his numbers, in terms of interceptions during his Cowboys and Redskins days are very similar to those of Champ Baileys. And most of his INT's came off Special Teams, not INT's. Outside of 1 year, he never had more than 3 INT's in 5 years in Dallas.

And although I don't believe in this saying, and have argued against it many times -- they do say "Defense wins Championships".

Either way, it's refreshing to have a mature conversation with somebody here.

Remember Deion only played in 1 Super Bowl. His and Bailey numbers are pretty much comparable.

Defense does win championships, for some. But, without really knowing the answer, how many Super Bowl Champs had a 1500(or abouts) yard rusher with double digit td's?

Guess we'll just have to revisit this debate every couple weeks.

Now Washington vs. Denver in the Super Bowl would really help settle it. Week 4 should be an indication, Denver plays TB.