Ebbets Field Flannels

[BallWonk]

I, for one, was thrilled to see that EFF was back under old management. And I love the logo!

I've had good results with custom caps from Cooperstown, but they certainly don't have as high a build quality as EFF caps. Can EFF do custom vintage caps?

What I really miss from the old days of EFF is the depth of PCL and lower minor-league stuff. Negro League caps are everywhere these days, but things like old Minneapolis Millers stuff or Roswell Rockets caps or, heck, that Keokuk Kernels jersey I never got around to getting, those are what I valued EFF as a source for. My hat size went up since EFF went all Stall-and-Dean on us, so most of my old EFF caps don't fit any more, but neither are they offered in the catalog or online. EFF used to have three or four caps (and even multiple jerseys) for every PCL team, and lots of caps and shirts for the lower levels of minor-league ball in the South, Midwest, and Plains, where the minor leagues were all the baseball there was for so long in the 20th century. I loved that stuff, and used to order a couple of caps a year when the selection was that deep.

Also, I used to love my old NY Knights cap from EFF. Until I went to the Hall of Fame, and saw that the EFF Knights cap bore only a poor resemblance to the movie props on display at Cooperstown. The movie caps were a darker navy blue and the bills were much longer, more like a 1950s or modern bill. (Although the crowns were still pretty low. The better to keep the caps high on the head, where they wouldn't interfere with all those closeups on Redford, I suppose.) My EFF Knights cap was more a Dodgers blue and it had a tiny bill that looked more like something out of the Federal League era. Any plans to make EFF's Knights caps more like the real things?

[tmorss9]

I'm not sure, but I don't think the jackets the Knights wore in the movie had the lightning bolt on them, but the ones from EFF do. And for the record, good luck finding a knights hat that looks like the ones in the movies, as the Cooperstown one doesnt look like it either. Truthfully, the EFF one is closer. While we're on the subject, any chance to see a Knights Tshirt??

For the record, In this thread I have pretty well trashed Jerry for something that happened years ago. After getting to know him on this board and through email, I must say that he's a stand up guy, and I look forward to doing business with him in the future.

[BallWonk]

I'm not sure, but I don't think the jackets the Knights wore in the movie had the lightning bolt on them, but the ones from EFF do. And for the record, good luck finding a knights hat that looks like the ones in the movies, as the Cooperstown one doesnt look like it either. Truthfully, the EFF one is closer. While we're on the subject, any chance to see a Knights Tshirt??

No, the Knights didn't have the patch on the jackets in the movie, but I think it's a nice touch for the EFF jacket. I mean, if someone actually played for the 1939 Knights, after the season he'd almost certainly have sewn that Wonderboy patch onto his jacket.

I never ordered a Knights cap from Cooperstown, so I can't speak to the quality of their felt logo, but Cooperstown will modify any hat to order. If you want a dark blue Knights cap with a long bill and a low crown, like they actually wore in the movie, Cooperstown will make if for you. It still won't have all of the quality touches that made EFF caps so great back when they were great (and hopefully will now be again), but it would probably be good enough, and a much better reproduction than EFF's current effort.

[Gothamite]

Yeah, but the quality of a CBC cap is about half that of an Ebbets Field one. if you're lucky.

[tmorss9]

The felt logo on the CBC cap is actaully kind of shotty. It just looks unprofessional, and doesn't look much like what they wore in the movie.. Come to think of it, my 1970 Orioles cap from CBC doesnt look like it should, either.

[ebbets]

OK, on the Knights: The jacket actually DID have the lightning bolt patch in ONE scene in the movie, hence our excuse for making it that way (plus, it looks cooler!) On the hat: Please note the original hats were made by a costume company. The shade of blue was between navy and royal - very hard to match. Our old EFF ones did not have the tiny umpire brims on them, but did have the rounder 1930s brim, which is shorter than contemporary ones. Our currennt Knights caps use regular dark navy because we want to match them to the jersey and jacket lettering. There were LOTS of inconsistencies in the movie (remember - these were costumes, not real uniforms) and for years Knights fanatics would bug us about this or that detail because they would fall in love with one particular version. Also, Knights T-shirt is now available, and we will be making the rare® road jersey as well...Jerry, EFF Inc.

PS: The movie was set in 1939, however the original book it was based on was set in the early 50s. So again, what is REALLY authentic?

[redsfan39]

I got the Ebbets catalog today- these look pretty sweet. you can expect an order or two from me in the coming days

[teenchy]

Jerry: Nice to see you on this board to explain, refute, and just plain comment on EFF past, present and future. I hope to start replacing some of those tees soon, and I sure could use a replacement Lookouts cap! (big hint)

[ebod39]

I know its not quite the old school aesthetic that EFF usually does but what's

the chance of seeing a Bad News Bears jersey in the future?

[BallWonk]

PS: The movie was set in 1939, however the original book it was based on was set in the early 50s. So again, what is REALLY authentic?

Malamud published The Natural in 1952, and he probably finished the text in 1951. It is not specifically set in any year, but Roy plays with the Knights when he's 34, which means it's 16 years after he was shot, and conversation on the train indicates that Roy is shot no earlier than 1926. In addition, Malamud was a New York baseball fan, yet there are conspicuously no black players in the novel. That puts Roy's year with the Knights in the period 1942-1947. But since WWII is never mentioned, it's fair to assume that it's either 1946 or 1947. Earlier than that and the war would have to figure into the novel, any later and completely non-black baseball is anachronistic. (If you play with Roy's birthday a bit, and figure he was 19 when he graduated high school, it could be 1941, but less plausibly.)

Also, the book describes only two elements of the Knights uniform: blue-and-white stockings, and a blue cap with an embroidered K.

So if you have a cap with an orange and white felt NY, then "authentic" pretty plainly means "what the prop caps looked like in the movie," since there were no NY caps in the book. The cap from the movie on display at the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown is a true navy blue (not midnight blue, not Dodgers blue) with a long bill and a low crown. A stop-frame examination of the movie shows that the players pretty much always wore caps with a longish bill.

Good news that EFF is now making Knights caps in navy blue. The picture on EFF's new web site looks very much like the photo I took of the prop cap on display at Cooperstown, or any rate much, much more like it than the Knights cap I bought from EFF in 1997. And great news about the t-shirts. Might have an order coming from me before too long!

[Gothamite]

Do you have a scan of the pic you took at Cooperstown, Wonk?

[BallWonk]

Do you have a scan of the pic you took at Cooperstown, Wonk?

Sadly, no. I went to Cooperstown (and the U.S. Soccer Hall of Fame at Oneonta) for Kirby Puckett's induction, which was a couple of years before I switched to digital shooting.

But here's a photo online. The actual exhibit is (was?) in the darkest corner of a dark room; I took my photo with a long exposure and a monopod, and it's a dark picture. This one is much lighter, and probably does a better job of capturing the true colors. It shows the navy cap and long bill exactly how I remember it. (This photo seems to be from 2002.)

link to photo

Another Google search turned up this 1998 photo, which looks much more like the shot I have, what with the complete lack of lighting in the exhibit.

link to photo

Looks to me like they might have changed the display since I was there.

[tmorss9]

Sign me up for the Knights road jersey and a navy sleeve fungo shirt when it comes out.

I know in the movie they wore white sleeves, but like Jerry said about the bolt on the jacket sleeve "It just looks cool"

[bulldogbarks55]

FYI- Jerry Cohen sent me a personal e-mail , I replied and what is past is past. I thanked him and wished him well now that he's back in "the catbird seat."

Did any of you people know that all of the uniforms and jackets used in "The Natural" were made by Empire Sporting Goods of New York City. Empire has now apparently moved to Newark, NJ. The cloth that was used was what we used to call in the trade "cricket cloth." The fabric was all-cotton. The Knights' home unis were cream-colored with navy pinstripes. The number font was Empire's stock full-block font that they have used forever.

I saw an article one time stating that the Knights' opponents uniforms for 1939 were incorrect. That's true, but remember, it was a fictional story and the producers did use some "dramatic license."

[Gothamite]

IIRC, the uniforms for the other teams were pretty good, considering the time period.

This was before anyone had assembled a guide to old uniform styles. Now, it's much easier to find that information.

[no97]

I saw an article one time stating that  the Knights' opponents uniforms for 1939 were incorrect.

IIRC, that's part of Mark Okkonen's preface in his excellent book, Baseball Uniform's of the 20th Century - and he lists the movie "The Natural" as one of the reasons he wanted to write/research the history of MLB uniforms. The line is something to the effect of, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Why couldn't they (implying The Natural's costume designers) have gotten the Pittsburgh Pirates uniforms right? How hard could it have been to look up what a 1939 Pirates uniform should have looked like? As it turns out, a lot harder than I imagined."

Moose

[ebod39]

my Knights jersey is an Empire Sporting Goods jersey. I had mine made

by a shop in Buffalo back in 1994 (sorry Jerry), where the movie was filmed.

I also got my jacket there because they made the jackets that were given to the cast

and crew after filming.

[tmorss9]

My Knights home jersey is also an Empire, form a place outside of Buffalo, but all the fonts are wrong.

As Bulldog said, Jerry also has sent me a few Emails, and again, wish him all the best, and look forward to becoming a customer.

[ebbets]

Just to add a little to the Knights saga: Yes, the original unis were by Empire. Very poor quality, and NOT real baseball flannel (pajama flannel or "cricket cloth"). So you can see why we're amused when people accuse us of not making the uniforms close enough to what they wore in the film! The other team uniforms were also very inaccurate - as has been pointed ot. I give them a pass on that because it was a fictional story (the Knights actuall were stand-ins for the NY Giants). A side note: It was from buying one of the Empire road "New York Giants" jerseys in the 80s and being so dissatisfied with it that led me to form Ebbets Field Flannels.

Empire was still in its NY Broadway location until a few years ago. The place had really gone to hell. But I have some original pieces from the 60s and earlier that are not bad.

[redsfan39]

Got the new catalog today - They now have CFL (Continental Football League) merchandise!