Activists call for 2011 MLB All-Star game to be moved

[rams80]

Not sure how people don't expect this law to be warped into a serious violation of human rights. Have you seen the way Arpaio and his goons treat people who aren't potential aliens? This is the place where petty criminals are made to live in tents, or put on chain gangs like Cool Hand freaking Luke, or get pimped out for reality shows on Fox. And you trust them not to abuse this?

So the main point of contention with those who oppose the law is how it will potentially be enforced. What opponents are basically saying is, "most cops are racist and can't be trusted to not use the new law to profile Hispanics, suspicious or not."

I have yet to see someone make a solid argument against the law based on the law as it is written.

Well, that's obviously because the letter of the law is not germane to the fear that this is going to be a major human rights snafu. It's not carefully arranged words that anyone is worried about, it's the empowered and armed yokels charged with effecting those words. "Idiot cops can't be trusted" is a perfectly acceptable reason to oppose things.

I guess I just fail to see how asking to see someone's ID after having already been stopped?and I get the whole 'driving while black' or in this case 'hispanic' thing?is a violation of human rights.

Because stuff like that is rather reminiscent of one of those Totalitarian states we hear about in history class and today. Which makes the inability/unwillingness the "That's Communism/Fascism" crowd to oppose this all the more ironic and hypocritical.

Because American Citizens should not be subject to having to prove their citizenship at the rate that I suspect a certain demographic will be.

Because you and I both know at least some whiteys won't have to prove their citizenship whilst at traffic stops. Which makes the law fundamentally unequal.

[1990hornet]

Not sure how people don't expect this law to be warped into a serious violation of human rights. Have you seen the way Arpaio and his goons treat people who aren't potential aliens? This is the place where petty criminals are made to live in tents, or put on chain gangs like Cool Hand freaking Luke, or get pimped out for reality shows on Fox. And you trust them not to abuse this?

So the main point of contention with those who oppose the law is how it will potentially be enforced. What opponents are basically saying is, "most cops are racist and can't be trusted to not use the new law to profile Hispanics, suspicious or not."

I have yet to see someone make a solid argument against the law based on the law as it is written.

Well, that's obviously because the letter of the law is not germane to the fear that this is going to be a major human rights snafu. It's not carefully arranged words that anyone is worried about, it's the empowered and armed yokels charged with effecting those words. "Idiot cops can't be trusted" is a perfectly acceptable reason to oppose things.

I guess I just fail to see how asking to see someone's ID after having already been stopped?and I get the whole 'driving while black' or in this case 'hispanic' thing?is a violation of human rights.

Because stuff like that is rather reminiscent of one of those Totalitarian states we hear about in history class and today. Which makes the inability/unwillingness the "That's Communism/Fascism" crowd to oppose this all the more ironic and hypocritical.

Because American Citizens should not be subject to having to prove their citizenship at the rate that I suspect a certain demographic will be.

Because you and I both know at least some whiteys won't have to prove their citizenship whilst at traffic stops. Which makes the law fundamentally unequal.

i think the only racism involved with this law is that of which those that oppose it inject, if you're an American citizen, you should be IMO proud to share that and do it in a heartbeat, and why the hell is it an invasion of privacy just to make sure you're here legally?

[rams80]

Not sure how people don't expect this law to be warped into a serious violation of human rights. Have you seen the way Arpaio and his goons treat people who aren't potential aliens? This is the place where petty criminals are made to live in tents, or put on chain gangs like Cool Hand freaking Luke, or get pimped out for reality shows on Fox. And you trust them not to abuse this?

So the main point of contention with those who oppose the law is how it will potentially be enforced. What opponents are basically saying is, "most cops are racist and can't be trusted to not use the new law to profile Hispanics, suspicious or not."

I have yet to see someone make a solid argument against the law based on the law as it is written.

Well, that's obviously because the letter of the law is not germane to the fear that this is going to be a major human rights snafu. It's not carefully arranged words that anyone is worried about, it's the empowered and armed yokels charged with effecting those words. "Idiot cops can't be trusted" is a perfectly acceptable reason to oppose things.

I guess I just fail to see how asking to see someone's ID after having already been stopped?and I get the whole 'driving while black' or in this case 'hispanic' thing?is a violation of human rights.

Because stuff like that is rather reminiscent of one of those Totalitarian states we hear about in history class and today. Which makes the inability/unwillingness the "That's Communism/Fascism" crowd to oppose this all the more ironic and hypocritical.

Because American Citizens should not be subject to having to prove their citizenship at the rate that I suspect a certain demographic will be.

Because you and I both know at least some whiteys won't have to prove their citizenship whilst at traffic stops. Which makes the law fundamentally unequal.

i think the only racism involved with this law is that of which those that oppose it inject, if you're an American citizen, you should be IMO proud to share that and do it in a heartbeat, and why the hell is it an invasion of privacy just to make sure you're here legally?

Because I'd rather the government not be able, even at a theoretical level, to keep reliable tabs on my daily comings and goings, and I can only assume many of my fellow Americans would also prefer to avoid that. Because much like there is a presumption of innocence until proof of guilt, I'd like a presumption of a legal right to be here and citizenship prior to proof, and the act of demanding proof of guilt (which is what this is, really) tends to presume guilt going in.

And again, if there wasn't a large body of documented evidence of racial profiling among American law enforcement agencies, your claims of a racially blind law might be justified. However, there is, and the implementation of the law is just as important as what it says. This is going to be targeted at certain demographics, and that is not acceptible.

I mean..."separate but equal" also sounded good in an academic and legal sense. In practice, however....

[The_Admiral]

I'm proud to be an American citizen, but I don't want to get pulled over and hassled because I'm tan for the summer and listening to a Ray Barretto album.

[1990hornet]

i think the only racism involved with this law is that of which those that oppose it inject, if you're an American citizen, you should be IMO proud to share that and do it in a heartbeat, and why the hell is it an invasion of privacy just to make sure you're here legally?

Because I'd rather the government not be able, even at a theoretical level, to keep reliable tabs on my daily comings and goings, and I can only assume many of my fellow Americans would also prefer to avoid that. Because much like there is a presumption of innocence until proof of guilt, I'd like a presumption of a legal right to be here and citizenship prior to proof, and the act of demanding proof of guilt (which is what this is, really) tends to presume guilt going in.

And again, if there wasn't a large body of documented evidence of racial profiling among American law enforcement agencies, your claims of a racially blind law might be justified. However, there is, and the implementation of the law is just as important as what it says. This is going to be targeted at certain demographics, and that is not acceptible.

I mean..."separate but equal" also sounded good in an academic and legal sense. In practice, however....

So rather than show a ID card which says you're legal, you would rather keep the illegals, cause that's the only way you're gonna find out who's who on the street. I've heard of not wanting the government involved, and I agree but what you're saying is ridiculous, it's the governments job to make sure everyone is here legally, you residency status. Period. it sound like you want to change that because of racial concerns.

I'm proud to be an American citizen, but I don't want to get pulled over and hassled because I'm tan for the summer and listening to a Ray Barretto album.

That's not allowed under the law.

[rams80]

I'm proud to be an American citizen, but I don't want to get pulled over and hassled because I'm tan for the summer and listening to a Ray Barretto album.

That's not allowed under the law.

And if you decide to complain about the hassling, it's your word against the cop's. Or they can hit you with "resisting arrest" and "failure to comply" and then ask to see your ID again and be perfectly fine. As you can see, what the law "allows" and what can and will happen don't exactly jive.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

It's annoying that the tea party -- so paranoid about the prospect of government extending health care and unemployment benefits -- is silent, if not supportive, on a legislated-military state. I know that it only affects Hispanic so is therefore not that big a deal, but still.

I'm not quite sure how to relate this anymore to the baseball game.

[GMac]

i think the only racism involved with this law is that of which those that oppose it inject, if you're an American citizen, you should be IMO proud to share that and do it in a heartbeat, and why the hell is it an invasion of privacy just to make sure you're here legally?

Look at it this way... Lets say in the future America's economy hits the gutter, well worse than it has now, and Canada is now the major North American super-power with all of its natural resources, jobs, clean water, ample space, etc...

So next thing you know we have to put up fences because the damn yankees are sneaking in an taking our jobs... and I do live near the american border...

So then everytime I get pulled over be it as something simple as failure to yield long enough at an intersection I can be then asked for my proof of canadian citizenship. Seems a tad extreme for a simple slap on the wrist.

It has nothing to do if you are proud of your country or not, its one's civil liberties. One of America's most trumped up beliefs is that of innocent until proven guilty, this law basically assumes all Latin people could possibly be illegal immigrants in Arizona. I have no idea how you cannot see the error in this.

Besides, I am willing to wager if these illegals could become American citizens they would and they would love and appreciate their new adopted country a lot more than many people who were born there. Not saying you, just alot of people.

[Lights Out]

Welcome to discrimination; white folks have been doing it for centuries.

Yep, all white people are still racist, and they are the only racists ever. Keep telling yourself that.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

Welcome to discrimination; white folks have been doing it for centuries.

Yep, all white people are still racist, and they are the only racists ever. Keep telling yourself that.

Because clearly, that's what I was trying to say.

[Lights Out]

Well, you could have just said that people in general have been doing it for centuries, which would be true, but instead, you singled out white people only and generalized what an entire race of people does.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

Well, you could have just said that people in general have been doing it for centuries, which would be true, but instead, you singled out white people only and generalized what an entire race of people does.

That's because white people are so good at it. Jesus Christ -- do they not teach history in high school anymore? It is straight from learning how to turn on a computer to instilling irrational expectations for the local beleaguered basketball franchise?

I don't understand the ideology here. It's okay to accept a law that nakedly encourages police to hassle Hispanics, but any ill thought against whitefolk is verboten? What does this line of thinking mean for future generations?

[Lights Out]

Yes, white people did own black slaves.... hundreds of years ago. Yes, many white people were against integration.... decades ago. But now, there's a black president, and guess what? Much of the white population voted for him, too!

Of course there's still white people that are racist and discriminatory, but you can say that for all races. At the same time, however, you can't say "white people are so good at [discrimination]" because racism and discrimination is so obviously unacceptable to the white population (and the entire population) at large these days.

And I fail to see what the Clippers have to do with anything.

[rams80]

Yes, white people did own black slaves.... hundreds of years ago.

A little over 150. Less if you live in Brazil.

Yes, many white people were against integration.... decades ago.

It's been less that 50 years since the end of the Civil Rights Era.

But now, there's a black president, and guess what? Much of the white population voted for him, too!

And a decent chunk of the rest went for the opposite extreme and questioned his citizenship and eligibility for office. Let's not break our arm patting ourselves on the back for racial tolerance here.

Of course there's still white people that are racist and discriminatory, but you can say that for all races. At the same time, however, you can't say "white people are so good at [discrimination]" because racism and discrimination is so obviously unacceptable to the white population (and the entire population) at large these days.

I know anecdotal evidence isn't the best, but I'm less sure that discrimination is "uncool" with a decent chunk of the white citizenry than you.

And I fail to see what the Clippers have to do with anything.

Well, this is a sports board.

[BrySmalls]

Devil's Advocate: If the 2011 ASG does happen to be moved, what team and ballpark would serve as the alternative host? Further, would Arizona be re-awarded the ASG in the near future after all the hoopla has passed?

[The_Admiral]

I'd like to think Kansas City would get it. Maybe Los Angeles (National League)?

[1990hornet]

I'm proud to be an American citizen, but I don't want to get pulled over and hassled because I'm tan for the summer and listening to a Ray Barretto album.

That's not allowed under the law.

And if you decide to complain about the hassling, it's your word against the cop's. Or they can hit you with "resisting arrest" and "failure to comply" and then ask to see your ID again and be perfectly fine. As you can see, what the law "allows" and what can and will happen don't exactly jive.

It's this kind of crap that ticks me off. You just looking for reason to oppose it instead of being realistic. Not every cop is a "dirty cop". You're not gonna to be able to prove that showing ID is an invasion of privacy.

I'd like to think Kansas City would get it. Maybe Los Angeles (National League)?

Kansas City has it in 2012.

[The_Admiral]

It's this kind of crap that ticks me off. You just looking for reason to oppose it instead of being realistic. Not every cop is a "dirty cop".

Enough of them are, especially in Arizona, that it's a very good reason to oppose it.

[1990hornet]

It's this kind of crap that ticks me off. You just looking for reason to oppose it instead of being realistic. Not every cop is a "dirty cop".

Enough of them are, especially in Arizona, that it's a very good reason to oppose it.

*facepalm* no it's not especially when you have no proof of this.

You don't oppose a law that's meant to help because 1 in every 100 cops (rough guesstimate pulled out of thin air) are dirty.

[The_Admiral]

you have no proof of this

rough guesstimate pulled out of thin air

*facepalm*