Duke LaCrosse

[The_Admiral]

You're my ho, Fred T. Jane.

Don Ho?

Did laughing at this validate Gitlin's post?

[DEAD!]

You're my ho, Fred T. Jane.

Don Ho?

Did laughing at this validate Gitlin's post?

Yes!

[Thad]

That game yesterday was an amazing game, with a much more amazing ending

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

You're my ho, Fred T. Jane.

Don Ho?

Did laughing at this validate Gitlin's post?

Yes!

Hypothesis nearly proven. No complete the other half -- one of you must be wearing black socks with tennis shoes. Or at least pleated pants.

[illwauk]

If anything, I feel sorry for the Black women who are gonna be reduced to whores and jezebels on account of what one person did. All because even in 2007, amerika still can't get its racism and sexism in check.

Because BET and the hip hop culture in general are being so helpful in promoting women's rights...

Ummm... BET and the sexism in the music industry (let's not even imply that misogyny is limited to hip hop) are what they are because of racism and sexism in amerika.

My point was maybe we should not be blaming one person for the "whores and jezebels" thing; seems to be that many others seem to be working to establish that stereotype, especially in the hip hop industry.

Who's blaming "one person?"

And this "hip hop industry" you speak of is run by old white men who have no connection to the actual hip hop community and do what they do for profits. Real hip hop has nothing to do with half-naked women, Don P, spinners, "bling bling" or any of the other crap the commercial media attaches it to. Of course, real hip hop doesn't appeal to white teenagers in the suburbs, that's why you don't see it on MTV or BET.

And let's not even compare a few rappers who haven't even had the benefit of a decent education to these over-privleged white fratboys who have had every opportunity to educate themselves on racism and sexism, but chose not to.

[rams80]

Who's blaming "one person?"

You are. Right here.

If anything, I feel sorry for the Black women who are gonna be reduced to whores and jezebels on account of what one person did. All because even in 2007, amerika still can't get its racism and sexism in check.

And this "hip hop industry" you speak of is run by old white men who have no connection to the actual hip hop community and do what they do for profits. Real hip hop has nothing to do with half-naked women, Don P, spinners, "bling bling" or any of the other crap the commercial media attaches it to. Of course, real hip hop doesn't appeal to white teenagers in the suburbs, that's why you don't see it on MTV or BET.

You might want to get on the phone and inform the powers-that-be of this fact then. Because they market it as such. (Although I was under the impression that BET's target audience was African Americans...What, with the Black Entertainment Television moniker, its founder being black, the black management, and a mission statement of "To be the preeminent source of entertainment, music, news, and information for the African-American consumer").

So what is "real hip hop" then? I am genuinely curious.

And let's not even compare a few rappers who haven't even had the benefit of a decent education to these over-privleged white fratboys who have had every opportunity to educate themselves on racism and sexism, but chose not to.

A few? I think its a lot more than a few. (Although, if I'm wrong, you're welcome to name names and point me in the direction thereof). As for the over-priveleged white fratboys, I'm sure that they have had some exposure to this, and certainly more in the last year. I would inquire though, if its not a general class problem i.e. they look down on anyone who is not in the same tax bracket as themselves regardless of color.

[illwauk]

Who's blaming "one person?"

You are. Right here.

If anything, I feel sorry for the Black women who are gonna be reduced to whores and jezebels on account of what one person did. All because even in 2007, amerika still can't get its racism and sexism in check.

And this "hip hop industry" you speak of is run by old white men who have no connection to the actual hip hop community and do what they do for profits. Real hip hop has nothing to do with half-naked women, Don P, spinners, "bling bling" or any of the other crap the commercial media attaches it to. Of course, real hip hop doesn't appeal to white teenagers in the suburbs, that's why you don't see it on MTV or BET.

You might want to get on the phone and inform the powers-that-be of this fact then. Because they market it as such. (Although I was under the impression that BET's target audience was African Americans...What, with the Black Entertainment Television moniker, its founder being black, the black management, and a mission statement of "To be the preeminent source of entertainment, music, news, and information for the African-American consumer").

So what is "real hip hop" then? I am genuinely curious.

And let's not even compare a few rappers who haven't even had the benefit of a decent education to these over-privleged white fratboys who have had every opportunity to educate themselves on racism and sexism, but chose not to.

A few? I think its a lot more than a few. (Although, if I'm wrong, you're welcome to name names and point me in the direction thereof). As for the over-priveleged white fratboys, I'm sure that they have had some exposure to this, and certainly more in the last year. I would inquire though, if its not a general class problem i.e. they look down on anyone who is not in the same tax bracket as themselves regardless of color.

I actually meant to convey that the blame in on the people who see what one person did as being indicative of an entire race. I probably could've made that more clear.

As far as BET and its Black management... it's still owned by Viacom and they call the final shots with profit always going to come before an accurate depiction of the art for them. And while the network does show Black music, it's marketed to have "universal appeal." So, since white suburban teens spend the most money, who do you think they're really concerned with reaching?

Examples of actual hip hop ARTISTS would include (but not limited to) Lupe Fiasco, the Roots, Immortal Technique, Common, Jean Grae, Little Brother, the Coup, Dead Prez and Zion. BET once actually refused to play a Little Brother video because it was "too intelligent for the our audience."

Anyway, I wouldn't doubt for a minute that these boys probably do look down on pretty much everyone in a lower income bracket. But classism and racism are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they're pretty much joined at the hip. I can't imagine someone would be crass enough to look down on people who make less than them to be the first one to stand up if they see someone of another race being treated unfairly. Especially since people of color tend to make far less than whites on average.

[VitaminD]

Still don't feel sorry for them. I still think it's entirely possible that one, if not all of these kids daddies paid the girl to discredit herself as much as possible. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense why someone who is at least smart enough to get into college would seek out such a difficult targets to accuse falsely.

Whoa there, boss. "Being smart enough to get into college" and "being mentally imbalanced" are not mutually exclusive. "Being smart enough to get into college" and "being intoxicated on muscle relaxants and alcohol" aren't either. Look at all the execs (Ken Lay, Dennis Kozlowski) who've been caught committing crimes. They were smart enough to get into college, get their degrees, and even get graduate degrees - and they were conspiring to bilk people out of money and steal from their companies. Greed transcends race, age, sex, and level of education. You'd be wise to drop this attempt at defending Ms. Mangum, since you're not proving anything. Smart people do crazy all the time.

Either way, I guess I'm having a hard time believing that a bunch of rich, white frat boys would knowlingly hire Black dancers with "good intentions." After all, these are the same people who do s**t like this.

Dude, I don't know you, but you're walking a dangerous line. For one, you're playing the "frat boy" card a little callously. Unless you know that all Duke lacrosse players are in frats, and are rich, I'd walk away from this one as well. Two wrongs don't make a right, and racial discrimination works both ways.

I know plenty of white people, many of whom are rich, and many more who may have been in frats, or at least went to frat parties in college. Not one of them has ever worn blackface, fake grills or stuffed the backs of their pants. You're overgeneralizing to the point that you're weakening your "defense", embarrassing yourself, and only inviting uglier responses. I'm going to keep it civil, but casting aspersions on people you really don't know by assuming they behave the way a few members of society act, and then ascribing those misbehaviors to an entire group of people, is a recipe for serious trouble.

Any last drop of sympathy I might've had for them was sucked dry when the media kept referring to them as the "Duke lacrosse players" while referring to her as a "stripper." Why was she the only one that got reduced to what she was doing at the time?

She was asked to come to a party being thrown by members of the lacrosse team to take off her clothes for money. The other people in the room all had a common tie through the lacrosse team. If it happened at a frat house, they'd be "the brothers of XYZ House". If it happened at a bachelor party, the men at the bachelor party would've been described as such. Why is that so offensive to your sensibilities. They were there under the auspices of camaraderie as members of the same team; she was there as a hired stripper.

Why not refer to her as "a female coed from NCCU?" (or the guys as "horny, drunken frat boys?" It ain't like they were playing lacrosse at the party)

See above. The reasons every guest at the party was invited was because they were members of the team. Simply calling Ms. Mangum "a female coed from NCCU" may cause unfair labelling of other female coeds from NCCU... you know, guilt by association. I'm sure you've heard of that bef--

If anything, I feel sorry for the Black women who are gonna be reduced to whores and jezebels on account of what one person did. All because even in 2007, amerika still can't get its racism and sexism in check.

--ore. Apparently, you have, so I'll continue my thought from above here.

You're playing both sides of this, and not very well. On one hand, you want Ms. Mangum to be called just another student from a local school, even though it's likely that the overwhelming majority of NCCU coeds are NOT part-time strippers, and many of those young women bristle at being associated with a stripper/liar/muckraker who's tarnishing the good name of their school. Yet on the other, you also feel that the same individual has already reduced all of her peers to jezebels and whores. Are you really serious with this? Whatever happened to treating the individual as an individual? Ms. Mangum - and let's use her name, here; she's already destroyed the good names of 3 young men whose only crime was using poor judgement in the wrong place at the wrong time and being wrongfully accused of a crime they didn't commit, so it's time her name was given equal exposure - committed her misdeeds as an individual. She does not reflect on women, black women, the black community as a whole, North Carolinians, Southerners, or Americans. She's a lone crackpot who make a false allegation of rape. She has not, does not, and will not change how I view the people around me; to the best of my knowledge, none of them have ever falsely accused anyone of rape. Leave it at that.

When you're ready to stop parroting the AmeriKa nonsense, and you're ready to stop throwing around broad-based sterotypes in a reckless and dangerous way, let us know. We'll be waiting for you.

[Fred T. Jane]

VitaminD, your post is just begging for this: