Roger Clemens and Steroids

[PaperAirplane31]

I dot understand why everyone wants to surender.

War on Drugs gets tough- Lets Legalize it

Stopping Illegal Immigrattion Gets Tough -Lets let them all stay.

War on Terrosim Gets Tough-Lets Retreat

Wheres the will to fight?

It ran away with the 1st Amendment.

[CaolinaJoe]

I dot understand why everyone wants to surender.

War on Drugs gets tough- Lets Legalize it

Stopping Illegal Immigrattion Gets Tough -Lets let them all stay.

War on Terrosim Gets Tough-Lets Retreat

Wheres the will to fight?

It ran away with the 1st Amendment.

Grab your 2nd Amendment and go after it then.

[The_Admiral]

I dot understand why everyone wants to surender.

War on Drugs gets tough- Lets Legalize it

Stopping Illegal Immigrattion Gets Tough -Lets let them all stay.

War on Terrosim Gets Tough-Lets Retreat

Wheres the will to fight?

It ran away with the 1st Amendment.

Grab your 2nd Amendment and go after it then.

But my 3rd Amendment says you can't sleep over along the way.

[Fred T. Jane]

I dot understand why everyone wants to surender.

War on Drugs gets tough- Lets Legalize it

Stopping Illegal Immigrattion Gets Tough -Lets let them all stay.

War on Terrosim Gets Tough-Lets Retreat

Wheres the will to fight?

It ran away with the 1st Amendment.

Grab your 2nd Amendment and go after it then.

But my 3rd Amendment says you can't sleep over along the way.

Nor can he look through your stuff because of my 4th Amendment.

[CaolinaJoe]

I dot understand why everyone wants to surender.

War on Drugs gets tough- Lets Legalize it

Stopping Illegal Immigrattion Gets Tough -Lets let them all stay.

War on Terrosim Gets Tough-Lets Retreat

Wheres the will to fight?

It ran away with the 1st Amendment.

Grab your 2nd Amendment and go after it then.

But my 3rd Amendment says you can't sleep over along the way.

Nor can he look through your stuff because of my 4th Amendment.

I'm gonna plead the 5th for the rest of this thread.

maybe

[Jigga]

Who cares if Clemons used them. He is going to retire this offseason anyway

Wait, so it's okay for Clemens to rack up win after win, strikeout after strikeout, and Cy Young Award after Cy Young Award while juiced up? However, it is a criminal offense punishable by death for Barry Bonds to rack up home run after home run, walk after walk, and MVP after MVP while juiced up?

I don't get it.

I've always believed that Clemens was on the juice, does this "prove" anything? Hell and no, but it's all I need to be sure in my mind that the Rocket was a cheat. He's still the greatest pitcher of this generation, but he should get the same treatment, potshots, backhanded comments, criticism, and scorn that all those other "supposed" juicers receive, as well.

[CaolinaJoe]

Who cares if Clemons used them. He is going to retire this offseason anyway

Wait, so it's okay for Clemens to rack up win after win, strikeout after strikeout, and Cy Young Award after Cy Young Award while juiced up? However, it is a criminal offense punishable by death for Barry Bonds to rack up home run after home run, walk after walk, and MVP after MVP while juiced up?

I don't get it.

I've always believed that Clemens was on the juice, does this "prove" anything? Hell and no, but it's all I need to be sure in my mind that the Rocket was a cheat. He's still the greatest pitcher of this generation, but he should get the same treatment, potshots, backhanded comments, criticism, and scorn that all those other "supposed" juicers receive, as well.

I'm with you. I say forget all the talk and accusation about anything or anyone before the ban and testing came about.

[HedleyLamarr]

Who cares if Clemons used them. He is going to retire this offseason anyway

Wait, so it's okay for Clemens to rack up win after win, strikeout after strikeout, and Cy Young Award after Cy Young Award while juiced up? However, it is a criminal offense punishable by death for Barry Bonds to rack up home run after home run, walk after walk, and MVP after MVP while juiced up?

I don't get it.

I've always believed that Clemens was on the juice, does this "prove" anything? Hell and no, but it's all I need to be sure in my mind that the Rocket was a cheat. He's still the greatest pitcher of this generation, but he should get the same treatment, potshots, backhanded comments, criticism, and scorn that all those other "supposed" juicers receive, as well.

Perhaps if Clemens pitched in St. Louis, he'd be innocent of doping.....

Right STL?

[buildingmaint]

Clemens is white,Bonds is black.You don't think race had any thing to do with Clemens ok and Bonds the devil himself?

[NJTank]

Nope

Clemens kisses media ass, Bonds nasty and surly thats why.

[Jigga]

Clemens is white,Bonds is black.You don't think race had any thing to do with Clemens ok and Bonds the devil himself?

Well of course I do, but I don't want to be accused of playing the race card.

Who's ass has The Rocket kissed? He was once a surly, nasty son-of-a-bitch in his own right--though not even in Bonds' stratosphere when it comes to being a jerk.

[illinirox1]

Clemens is white,Bonds is black.You don't think race had any thing to do with Clemens ok and Bonds the devil himself?

Well of course I do, but I don't want to be accused of playing the race card.

Who's ass has The Rocket kissed? He was once a surly, nasty son-of-a-bitch in his own right--though not even in Bonds' stratosphere when it comes to being a jerk.

His teammates didn't hate him, but he has been an SOB in the past. And I think race always has a little bit to do with things. Has Mark McGwire gotten as much attention as Bonds or Palmerio?

[Squeaks4]

Clemens is white,Bonds is black.You don't think race had any thing to do with Clemens ok and Bonds the devil himself?

Well of course I do, but I don't want to be accused of playing the race card.

Who's ass has The Rocket kissed? He was once a surly, nasty son-of-a-bitch in his own right--though not even in Bonds' stratosphere when it comes to being a jerk.

I know you think this is a race thing but to be honest, do you think the media would of treated, lets say, Hank Aaron as they would Barry Bonds if it was discovered he took steroids?

Gotta look beyond that these days. Not saying its a non-issue, but it's probably the case 1% of the time.

And I think race always has a little bit to do with things. Has Mark McGwire gotten as much attention as Bonds or Palmerio?

No, but they both did the smart thing and just swallowed their pride and kept quiet. Bonds has made it into a media circus and has brought most of the attention onto himself.

[lilgump]

Has Mark McGwire gotten as much attention as Bonds or Palmerio?

No, but then again hasnt he come out saying what he used, that may not of been all he was on, hes also retired. Sammy has gotten just as little attention as McGwire.

[Fred T. Jane]

Has Mark McGwire gotten as much attention as Bonds or Palmerio?

Well, Bonds is the target of the largest witchhunt* since, well, McCarthy, and Palmiero actually tested positive for something. Call it a hunch, but I think they may have something to do with them getting more attention than McGwire

*Obviously a bourgeoisie conspiracy

[Jigga]

Clemens is white,Bonds is black.You don't think race had any thing to do with Clemens ok and Bonds the devil himself?

Well of course I do, but I don't want to be accused of playing the race card.

Who's ass has The Rocket kissed? He was once a surly, nasty son-of-a-bitch in his own right--though not even in Bonds' stratosphere when it comes to being a jerk.

I know you think this is a race thing but to be honest, do you think the media would of treated, lets say, Hank Aaron as they would Barry Bonds if it was discovered he took steroids?

Gotta look beyond that these days. Not saying its a non-issue, but it's probably the case 1% of the time.

And I think race always has a little bit to do with things. Has Mark McGwire gotten as much attention as Bonds or Palmerio?

No, but they both did the smart thing and just swallowed their pride and kept quiet. Bonds has made it into a media circus and has brought most of the attention onto himself.

I don't want to argue race with you, Squeaks, and I am not going to. You and I will never agree. You think racism has been marginalized to the point that it may only exist in 1% of situations. I know that racism rears its ugly head all of the damn time in situations that you wouldn't even believe, just because it isn't overt does not mean it does not exist.

With that said, it's not an issue about Hank Aaron versus Barry Bonds. My point isn't that every Black player will be treated worse than every White player, I'm just saying all other things equal, the Black guy will be treated worse by a majority White institution. I'm not just talking baseball either.

Again, I don't want to argue race with you, or anyone else. Perception is reality and how can you argue with someone else's reality? If you haven't seen/experienced much racism, good on you, I sincerely hope you can remain free of dealings with this ugly plague. I, on the other hand have to question things in my own life and wonder if racism played a part in a particular result. It's a hell of a reality and because you don't have first hand knowledge of it, don't act as though it doesn't exist, or exists so seldomly that it is nearly a "non-issue."

[Squeaks4]

Clemens is white,Bonds is black.You don't think race had any thing to do with Clemens ok and Bonds the devil himself?

Well of course I do, but I don't want to be accused of playing the race card.

Who's ass has The Rocket kissed? He was once a surly, nasty son-of-a-bitch in his own right--though not even in Bonds' stratosphere when it comes to being a jerk.

I know you think this is a race thing but to be honest, do you think the media would of treated, lets say, Hank Aaron as they would Barry Bonds if it was discovered he took steroids?

Gotta look beyond that these days. Not saying its a non-issue, but it's probably the case 1% of the time.

And I think race always has a little bit to do with things. Has Mark McGwire gotten as much attention as Bonds or Palmerio?

No, but they both did the smart thing and just swallowed their pride and kept quiet. Bonds has made it into a media circus and has brought most of the attention onto himself.

I don't want to argue race with you, Squeaks, and I am not going to. You and I will never agree. You think racism has been marginalized to the point that it may only exist in 1% of situations. I know that racism rears its ugly head all of the damn time in situations that you wouldn't even believe, just because it isn't overt does not mean it does not exist.

With that said, it's not an issue about Hank Aaron versus Barry Bonds. My point isn't that every Black player will be treated worse than every White player, I'm just saying all other things equal, the Black guy will be treated worse by a majority White institution. I'm not just talking baseball either.

Again, I don't want to argue race with you, or anyone else. Perception is reality and how can you argue with someone else's reality? If you haven't seen/experienced much racism, good on you, I sincerely hope you can remain free of dealings with this ugly plague. I, on the other hand have to question things in my own life and wonder if racism played a part in a particular result. It's a hell of a reality and because you don't have first hand knowledge of it, don't act as though it doesn't exist, or exists so seldomly that it is nearly a "non-issue."

Fair enough man. Agree to disagree. I hope I am not wrong. But just so you know, I have NOTHING against you. In fact, you are easily one of my favorite guys on here.

[whitedawg22]

Vince McMahon doesn't allow steroids (anymore)

...and Snoop doesn't smoke weed any more.

But seriously, every legitimate study that has been done on the legalization of drugs has shown the same trend. When drugs are first legalized, use temporarily increases. Then use drops off to a level below the "illegal use" level, and of course legalizing drugs eliminates black markets and the associated societal ills (corruption, gang violence, overcrowded prisons), not to mention that the billions we currently waste on the unwinnable war on drugs can be put to more productive uses. For a great reference point on this debate and black markets in general, read "Reefer Madness" by Eric Schlosser (author of "Fast Food Nation").

As far as Roger Clemens, draw your own conclusions.

1985:

2006:

His facial structure appears to have changed a little, but certainly not on a Bonds-level scale.

[jkrdevil]

Vince McMahon doesn't allow steroids (anymore)

...and Snoop doesn't smoke weed any more.

But seriously, every legitimate study that has been done on the legalization of drugs has shown the same trend. When drugs are first legalized, use temporarily increases. Then use drops off to a level below the "illegal use" level, and of course legalizing drugs eliminates black markets and the associated societal ills (corruption, gang violence, overcrowded prisons), not to mention that the billions we currently waste on the unwinnable war on drugs can be put to more productive uses. For a great reference point on this debate and black markets in general, read "Reefer Madness" by Eric Schlosser (author of "Fast Food Nation").

As far as Roger Clemens, draw your own conclusions.

1985:

2006:

His facial structure appears to have changed a little, but certainly not on a Bonds-level scale.

He's a pitcher so upper body strength isn't as important as lower body because power is generated from the legs. I'm sure Clemens has probably done a lot more leg presses than bench press. So he gains wight but diesn't get a ripped in the upper body as Bonds or McGwire.