CFL Expansion

[Stampman]

I think the Yukon is due!

That's not dew--that's frost...

[pking34@comcast.net]

While another attempt at expanding the CFL into the US isn't the exact topic of discussion here(I voted for Halifax),should the CFL choose to try that direction again,it might be a more successful strategy to target markets which are,first,significantly north of the Mason-Dixon line (for the sake of minimizing travel cost),and, secondly,decent-sized markets that do not currently have major-league franchises in any of the "big 4" sports.I have 5 nominations if there is a future US expansion of the CFL. They are Hartford,CT, Providence,RI, Manchester,NH, Des Moines,IA, and Spokane,WA.

[Phil]

You touched a nerve here, pking.

The CFL almost killed itself doing that last time, and regardless of how 'profitable' or 'successful' they may be next time, I would be furious if they ever tried it again (and I certainly believe that Tom Wright is smarter than to try it again).

The CFL is Canada's game... the way we look at it is we're different from the NFL... the NFL isn't better or worse than the CFL, but different. (Okay, so everyobdy knows that the players are better in the NFL, but our style of game is better, we think, and that's enough.) Expanding into markets not 'good enough' for the Big 4 is once again lying down and admitting we're inferior in every way. This would destroy the mystique about the game.

Now I have made a bunch of very opinion-based points, of which few actually have an factual basis or merit. But that's part of my reasoning... despite what might be 'reasonable' or 'profitable', the reasons not to expand to the South are ones of pride, passion, and past experience.

I know the Baltimore Colts/Stallions/CFLers had a good fanbase that still follows the CFL (and a cool logo to boot), but moving that team to Montreal was one of the best things the CFL has done.

Back on topic... I want to see the Atlantic Schooners play in brand spanking new ScotiaBank Stadium in 2008!

[Lee.]

just let Calgary another team

GO STAMPS GO

They might as well, the Stampeders don't really count as a team this year anyway...

[yh]

My vote is for the Sydney Time?!

[pking34@comcast.net]

Not trying to touch a nerve, SyPhi.

I am not an advocate of CFL expansion to the US,but since that possibility has been discussed on some other boards I participate in, I thought I would suggest where I thought the CFL would be most successful in the US.

I do not believe that the CFL is "minor league" or that the cities I mentioned are "minor league" cities.I have liked watching CFL football ever since Condredge Holloway played in the league (like Flutie,he was a great quarterback who was under 6 feet in height).The CFL has been a showcase for many big-time athletes who fell afoul of the NFL's "prototype prejudices".The cities I mentioned are excellent markets who deserve recognition (I believe you advocated a similar strategy for Major League Baseball in picking their next market, and used a similar rationale to justify voting for Halifax in this poll; it sounds like we really are in agreement).

In every sport,franchises need to go to the places where they make economic sense,and will be both appreciated and financially successful.

[Discrim]

i figure Quebec would make the most sense...but for comedy's sake, i'll suggest Portland, Maine.

[Lee.]

Well, if we want comedy, what about Fort lauderdale? There are more French Canadians down there that I've seen in Quebec.

(shiver)....nothing worse than a pasty, 300-lb Frenchman in a thong.

[pking34@comcast.net]

Where is the guy that dreamed up the "New Jersey Jokers" logo now that I need him?

All of the cities I mentioned are in counties with populations between 400,000 and 750,000; in other words, close to the same size as my hometown of Nashville,TN, which successfully supports NFL and NHL franchises. In any other region, Hartford and Providence would already have major league sports, but where they are located, they are caught in the New York-Boston crossfire. Manchester is slightly smaller, but is close to the Canadian border.Des Moines is a big league-sized city which gets overlooked because of its' states' rural image. Spokane is a big league-sized city overshadowed in its' home state by Seattle.

[Brian in Boston]

pking34...

No offense, but Hartford already had a major-league franchise - the NHL's Hartford Whalers. Granted, the owner was a carpet-bagger who decided to take the money and run to Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, but if the Greater Hartford market were such a slam-dunk prospect for major-pro sports success, various leagues would be falling all over themselves to place a franchise there via expansion or relocation. However, with a Metropolitan Area population of 1,183,110 people, Hartford ranks as just the 41st market in size. Buffalo (42nd), Memphis (43rd) and Jacksonville (45th) are the only markets with less population that play host to a major-pro team. The Providence, Rhode Island Metropolitan Area has a population of 1,188,613 which it ranks it as the 39th market in size... smack dab between Nashville (38th) and Raleigh-Durham (40th). Both Hartford and Providence are at the "tail-end" of the core population seen as necessary to support a major-pro franchise for the long haul. What's more, they're both cities in the industrial Northeast, which is regarded as a region that will continue to lose population in the near future. While Hartford-New Haven ranks as a fairly decent 27th-largest amongst Nielsen Television Markets, Providence comes in at 48th. Most importantly, as you pointed out, both markets are overshadowed by the more dominant metro area marketplaces of New York City and Boston. Unfortunately, that's not going to change... so the argument over whether Hartford or Providence could support a major pro sports team is a moot one. There's also the question of whether or not the markets they are most similar to in size (i.e. Nashville, Raleigh-Durham, Buffalo, Memphis and Jacksonville) are going to be able to sustain major-pro viability over the long haul. The Southern cities are in so-called "growth markets", so they may have a brighter future. However, there's no guarantees.

As for Des Moines, Spokane and Manchester... give me a break! Des Moines' population of 456,622 people marks it as the 90th-largest Metro Area. Spokane's 417,939 makes it the 98th-largest. Manchester, NH is technically part of the Greater Boston Metropolitan Area, so it doesn't show up as its own Metro Area. However, if the nine-city area that Manchester's Chamber of Commerce deems the Manchester Metro Area were on the list, its population of 177,500 would rank it 176th on the list. The point I'm making is that Des Moines, Spokane and Manchester are NOT "big league cities" being "overshadowed" by rural images or other cities in their areas. They're "Triple A" communities... nothing more, nothing less. If they were capable of sustaining major-pro teams successfully, the major pro leagues would place franchises in them.

To get back to your earlier point about CFL expansion into the United States, if it were done (I don't personally think that it's needed), Hartford is the only one of the cities you mentioned that might have a chance to adequately support a team. Providence is simply too close to the NFL New England Patriots' home in Foxboro, Massachusetts. Des Moines, Spokane and Manchester bring nothing to the CFL's table that the league doesn't already have in the markets it occupies now in Canada. The latter three cities would do little to nothing to bolster the CFL's image or bottom line.

Brian in Boston

[Phil]

Hartford is the only one of the cities you mentioned that might have a chance to adequately support a team. Providence is simply too close to the NFL New England Patriots' home in Foxboro, Massachusetts.

I wouldn't say proximity to an NFL team is a big issue. The most successful team by far from the last foray into the States was Baltimore, and they already had the Ravens at that point.

The only way I think a CFL team will work in any proximity to an NFL team is if there's the border between them.

[Stampman]

Actually The owner moved the team (Stallions) for 2 reasons

1-the Ravens were announced--(there was no overlap of Stallions/Ravens)

2-the other US teams folded.

[Brian in Boston]

The most successful team by far from the last foray into the States was Baltimore, and they already had the Ravens at that point.

Actually, no they didn't. The planned transfer of the original Cleveland Browns to Baltimore for the 1996 NFL season was announced by Art Modell on November 6, 1995. As a result, the CFL's Baltimore Stallions played just two games after word of the NFL's return to Maryland was announced: the CFL's Southern Division Championship and the Grey Cup Championship.

So, in point of fact, the CFL Stallions and NFL Ravens did not successfully call Baltimore home at the same time. In fact, it can be deduced that the NFL's imminent return to Baltimore was at least partially responsible for driving the CFL's Stallions from the city. Not exactly a case of NFL and CFL teams successfully co-existing.

I stand by my assertion that a CFL franchise in Providence, RI would not be able to successfully co-exist with the NFL's New England Patriots operating in nearby Foxboro, MA.

Brian in Boston

[Phil]

The most successful team by far from the last foray into the States was Baltimore, and they already had the Ravens at that point.

Actually, no they didn't. The planned transfer of the original Cleveland Browns to Baltimore for the 1996 NFL season was announced by Art Modell on November 6, 1995. As a result, the CFL's Baltimore Stallions played just two games after word of the NFL's return to Maryland was announced: the CFL's Southern Division Championship and the Grey Cup Championship.

So, in point of fact, the CFL Stallions and NFL Ravens did not successfully call Baltimore home at the same time. In fact, it can be deduced that the NFL's imminent return to Baltimore was at least partially responsible for driving the CFL's Stallions from the city. Not exactly a case of NFL and CFL teams successfully co-existing.

I stand by my assertion that a CFL franchise in Providence, RI would not be able to successfully co-exist with the NFL's New England Patriots operating in nearby Foxboro, MA.

Brian in Boston

...but Baltimore won that Grey Cup.

Okay, so you're right.

[slapshot]

I agree with Brian. Providence, Hartford and Manchester are too close to NFL cities to be marketable for potential CFL teams. Especially since the Patriots draw from all of New England, and they're not the Boston-Area Patriots. If I lived in Hartford. I would watch either the Patriots, Giants, Jets, or NCAA football before I watched the CFL. No one would really care to watch an different version of a professional sport played locally against remote rivals a minimum of 600+ miles away.

If there was a city nearby that may be far enough away from the NFL and NCAA div. I football to compete with it for fans, I would go with Albany, NY. The only connection to the NFL is the Giants pre-season camp. Syracuse is still a few hours away from there, and it's a moderate sized city that's not considered in anyone else's metro area. Albany is a lot closer to Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal than Manchester is.

I don't think you'll find many other cities with a population of over 200,000 (I don't even think Albany reaches that) that aren't located too close to NFL or div. I football without going south of the Mason-Dixon line, and that's probably a huge reason why the CFL failed in the U.S.