Political Correctness

[Phil]

Instead of having this debate crop up every time we see a team switch its nickname, let's have one thread for this debate for all time to come. That way we don't have to reinvent the wheel (or make the same points) every time. Any time we come upon the debate, we can refer it over here, and there's a contained thread we can monitor and keep in check.

I'm keeping this in Sports Logos for now, because a) we have more mod-eyes watching it here, and much of the debate is spawned from the changing of 'non-politically correct' team names.

Before we start, please review the board rules. We don't want to have to stop this debate through mod-force.

Who wants to make the first comment?

[Captain Tenneal] LLLLET'S GO! [/Captain Tenneal]

Some ideas to get it started: What do you think of Marquette's change from Warriors to Golden Eagles? What do you think about Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians, or the tomahawk chop done by fans of the Atlanta Braves and Florida State Seminoles? What do you think about the Washington Redskins' nickname?

[habsfannova]

OK, for major North American sports, all I hate is the Redskins. And I don't think they should change it.

I think PC is VERY overplayed, and as I satated earlier, it's mostly just a cash grab by universities on New merchendise, and they have a scapegoat for the traditionalists to blame in the few people who wanted the name changed.

It is NOT in violation of freedom of speech OR censorship, because PRIVATE orginizations or university boards make the choices, not the legeslative government.

[Waffles]

It is NOT in violation of freedom of speech OR censorship, because PRIVATE orginizations make the choices, not the government.

Unless it's a state school...

I don't mind Native American nicknames, as most seem to spawn innocuously enough from a regional historical significance, or a reverence of some aspect of the culture (which, unfortunately, is often ferociousness).

That said, I don't like the name Redskins and Chief Wahoo and any of the other names and images that cross the line from reverence into degradation. The tomahawk chop doesn't bother me because it's just so ridiculously stupid and everyone who does it looks silly doing so.

Marquette's move was puzzling to me, because I'm not sure most people think of Native Americans when they think of Warriors. They could have just as easily gone with a Greco/Roman Warrior theme (ala Golden State) and hardly anyone would have been the wiser.

[habsfannova]

Touché. Added "Boards of universities" to my post....

[Saintsfan]

Sy, the only problem is this one topic isn't gonna stop the issue popping up in other threads as its a debate that is rumbling on in society, and the global society and hence is gonna get discussed from time to time.

However that said! First things first, I am not advocating that any team should be forced to change a name. Thats neither liberal or progressive. However I do believe that it is ok to applaud a university for doing so, whatever the reason. And as far as SE Missouri, having read the article in the SE MO thread, I don't think that the PC debate was the only or most important issue here. They simply felt the need to change the name to get people to notice them. Fair enough.

However I also think it is important that people, however conservative or neo-conservative they consider themselves to be, recognise that the sensitivities of those who are opposed to names such as Braves, Redskins, or Indians are genuine. If I were a Braves fan for instance I wouldn't take part in the Tomahawk chop thing. Yes it is just a bit of fun, but it also reflects badly on your countries attitudes to its indigenous population.

[Phil]

Sy, the only problem is this one topic isn't gonna stop the issue popping up in other threads as its a debate that is rumbling on in society, and the global society and hence is gonna get discussed from time to time.

You couldn't be more right. However, just like when people in a fight are told to 'take it outside', we can tell the people discussing PC issues to take it here.

NOT that I'm saying this in any other way resembles people in a physical fight.

Why would we want that? So that we can see what we've already discussed, the points that have been (resulting in a much more informed and enlightening conversation), and we can better monitor it to prevent it from becoming a personal flame-fest.

[STL FANATIC]

Saintsfan, maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't recognise many of the people who are offended by names like Braves, Illini, and Indians to have GENUINE sensitivities. I see them more as looking for attention. And I'll quickly put anyone who truely is offended by this stuff into the oversensitive crowd. Our nation should have tougher skin training, not sensitivity training (well, maybe both).

If we're talking the Redskins or Chief Wahoo, I can see how those might be offensive, though I still see them as just conviently iffy items to help the Indian PC cause.

The part where I really get involved is the University of Illinois Fightin' Illini. Admittedly, not everything can be authentic about it, but there is no more honorable way to present a symbol of the university and it's athletics than the way the U of I does Cheif Illiniwek. I simply can't understand how or believe that anyone is offended by it.

[Saintsfan]

Saintsfan, maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't recognise many of the people who are offended by names like Braves, Illini, and Indians to have GENUINE sensitivities. I see them more as looking for attention. And I'll quickly put anyone who truely is offended by this stuff into the oversensitive crowd. Our nation should have tougher skin training, not sensitivity training (well, maybe both).

If we're talking the Redskins or Chief Wahoo, I can see how those might be offensive, though I still see them as just conviently iffy items to help the Indian PC cause.

The part where I really get involved is the University of Illinois Fightin' Illini. Admittedly, not everything can be authentic about it, but there is no more honorable way to present a symbol of the university and it's athletics than the way the U of I does Cheif Illiniwek. I simply can't understand how or believe that anyone is offended by it.

Well true enough, but some people are offended and have genuine reason to be. just because you think they are being over sensitive doesn't change that. Personally, I can be offended by some things in life, for instance people dissing catholics, (having been brought up catholic) in offensive ways. (depsite the fact that I am not a practicing catholic). And from that stand point I can understand some peoples frustration with this issue.

The whole issue is tough and complicated. As I have said, I don't believe that the name of a sports team is a big deal- people should find more iportant battles to fight. But it is an issue that is raised, ironically more often brought up by those opposed to PC than those who support it!

[Waffles]

The problem is it's such a fine line between representing Native Americans respectfully and turning it into a minstrel show of sorts.

The reason you see some institutions reacting the way they do is because it's a line most people would rather not tread.

[Saintsfan]

Absolutely! Also the negative publicity some teams and colleges receive, some times unfairly, can't be a good thing! I don't suppose anyone has ever thought 'Oh i really hate native americans so I am gonna support the redskins' or whoever.

But the thing that annoys me is how people react to stories like the SE Mo story by putting it down to PC, and complaining about the liberal mentality, when sometimes that has nothing to do with it!

[Magus]

I touched on this on another thread.

its like the confederate flag issue and PC trouble making groups wanting to take it down because of what all the racism that is associated with it; even though racism was prevalent and far worse atrocities were under the union flag.

its the pc garbage that has led the destruction of the united states on every level. while we worry about pc sensitivities, radical Islam who do not care about politically correct sensitivities is taking over the western world.

political correctness is mental slavery.

[MilTownMVP]

\its the pc garbage that has led the destruction of the united states on every level.  while we worry about pc sensitivities, radical Islam who do not care about  politically correct sensitivities is taking over the western world.

LOL You can't be serious.

If you even have a piece of Muslim literature nowadays you're guilty of having links to terror by association. I know because I've seen the bullplop the mosque up the street from me has had to deal with.

You say PC is mental slavery? I say the same about the post 9/11 mass-hysteria of all things not considered "American."

[Saintsfan]

Okay, Civil War between the USA and the CSA. USA wins, slavery is abolished, USA is in a position to become an economic power the like of which the world hasn't seen.

The CSA wanted to leave the USA at least sub consciously to protect slavery.

And its the stars and stripes that is the symbol of racism and hatred??

Yes the Union isn't perfect and yes many bad things have been done under the auspices (fancy word huh!!) of the USA, but c'mon live with us in the real world. Its blindingly obvious why particularly black people in the south might want not to see any symbol of the confederacy.

As I said, flying a Confedrate flag could be construed as an act of teason- let it go and lets start worrying about the battles ahead not the battles that should have been left long ago in the past.

[jkrdevil]

My problem with the confederate flag is not pc, my problem with it is that it's stupid becuase the south LOST. Think about it, you don't see Germany flying the nazi flag.

The confederate flag should not be flown in the US as it is not a US flag and has never been a US flag. In fact it was the flag of the people who rebeled against the US. The Civil War ended over 100 years ago, get over it.

[Ez Street]

Treat it like a box score...

USA 1 - CSA 0 Final

Shortly after the game, the CSA folds.

CSA = DEFUNCT, I suppose renecks can say they are waving a RETRO flag. I always thought the whole confederate flag thing was dumb. Living here in Quasi-Redneckville.....i can tell you in High School there were a plethera of Confederate Flags. Me being the A-Hole i am (yes GMac....ROOSTER), i would always tell them "You lost". Of course they had no clue what i was talking about. Most NECKS, don't know of the culutral signifigance of that flag. They just think it's cool to wear and "Be a Rebel". In closing i suggest a type of exchange be set up. You turn in your Confederate Clothing, Flags, etc and in return recieve Dale Earnhart merchandise. See that way you are still being a NECK and we don't have to see the flag of a failed attempt to destory the fabric of our country.

Good Day ALL!

[mac]

My problem is that the people who change the names think they are helping the people who the name is supposed to offend, only to make them angry. When Miami of Ohio changed its name from the redskins to the redhawks, the miami indians were upset, they saw the name as an honor, and actually patitioned to get the name back. And to this day Redskin merchandise sells better than does the redhawk merchandise. The president of the university who had only been there a breif time before he changed the name was fired because of public outrage not two months later, so this is a situation where trying to be pc actually hurt the people involved on both sides.

My stance on political correctness is that people are too literal with names, it is just a name, warriors doesnt have to mean native american warrior, also the people who decide whether something is politically incorrect often dont think of the actual people the school or team is named after, they just assume that the name sounds offensive so it must be offensive to the actual group of people from which the name comes, as was the case in the miami situation.

The confederate flag bothers me because of what it represents ie. slavery, oppreseion, racism, on the other hand you cant really take the political statement that the people who fly are making because most are just dumb rednecks, with too little to schooling to know that there even was a civil war ,or that the south lost

my 2 cents

[Saintsfan]

So so far the consensus is

1 Changing a team name purely for PC reasons isn't a good idea.

2 Flying the Confederate flag is dumb.

Cool! Agreement!

As I said before, the thing about PC is that it is brought up mainly by those opposed to it. If they all calmed down it just wouldn't be an issue. (For example the SE Missouri thread was started by someone complaining about the name change.)

[random]

\its the pc garbage that has led the destruction of the united states on every level. while we worry about pc sensitivities, radical Islam who do not care about politically correct sensitivities is taking over the western world.

LOL You can't be serious.

If you even have a piece of Muslim literature nowadays you're guilty of having links to terror by association. I know because I've seen the bullplop the mosque up the street from me has had to deal with.

You say PC is mental slavery? I say the same about the post 9/11 mass-hysteria of all things not considered "American."

your insinuation that the united states is treating all muslims as terrorists is misinformed and lucacris. some islamic charities have shipped money to terrorist hence investigations into some of them, but saying we are treating all muslims as terrorists is honestly one of the most extreme things i've ever heard. yes, some individual citizens may have the ignorant point of view that muslims are all terrorists, but equating that to an official government point of view that all muslims are terrorists is just a rediculous jump.

anyway, back to the subject. no one should be forced to change their name thru legislation, thats a 1st amendment issue (like what happened here in Montgomery County, MD). i roll my eyes when a team changes just b/c of a PC issue,but i dont see it as a huge deal.

and by the way, i attended Miami of Ohio last year, and yes, the RedHawks name and identity is far inferior to the Redskins, and yes, the Miami Tribe wanted the name to stay the same.

[MilTownMVP]

your insinuation that the united states is treating all muslims as terrorists is misinformed and lucacris. some islamic charities have shipped money to terrorist hence investigations into some of them, but saying we are treating all muslims as terrorists is honestly one of the most extreme things i've ever heard. yes, some individual citizens may have the ignorant point of view that muslims are all terrorists, but equating that to an official government point of view that all muslims are terrorists is just a rediculous jump.

I never implied that the US government had an official stance that everything islamic=terrorism (though I'm pretty sure that's how Bush & Co. feel "off the record). That was a response to a hysterical post that claimed islam was taking over the western world. That'll never happen given the paranoid climate of this post 9/11 society.

But you and I both know that had these been christian organizations that attacked us, christians would NEVER have to go through what the muslim community has.

[OMMF]

I have no problem using a native american reference for sports teams, but the word redskins is rediculous.  It refers to the bloody scalp people used to bring back and give to the government, who would them pay them for killing an indian.  I think something like the word natives should be used instead.  Feel free to comment on the name issue, but please also say what you think of this concept.

Or, maybe, it's referring to the unique skin color of many Native Americans?

Even still, you wouldn't honor Asians by calling them the Yellowskins, would you?

Last I checked, my skin was a dark brown, not red. Although I'm getting that way from reading this.

If you're implying that I'm a racist, you're reading too much into what I said. Forgive me for not being hypersensitive in my first post.

I'm not saying that the name Redskins is necessarily honorable, I'm saying that as far as I've known in the past, it was referring to the (obviously exaggerated) skin tone of many native peoples, not the process of government-sponsored murder for hire.

OMMF,

I think you jumped on Schmee way to quick. When I read his post I thought he was questioning the origin of the name not making a statement of fact about Native American skin tone.

I am a Native American (Cherokee Tribe). I have always been under the impression that the name comes from the skin tone of some Native American Tribes and not from the origin given by Puckcool. It's a fact that many people who are of certain Native Bloodlines have a very distinct Reddish-Brown Hue to their skin. I, like Schmee do not necessarily condone the name Redskins, but let's not crucify Schmee for asking a legitimate question about the origin of the name.

Although I will also freely admit that as a person of Cherokee decent, I DO NOT find any of the Sports Names or Logos offensive.

That's great if you don't. Honestly I don't much either. And to be fair, I never called him a racist and have seen many more reports that support his claim than the other.

But...

If you read, his original post (and this, I'm sure, will be called overanalysis)

Why would the team suddenly switch to a hateful, violent name that belittles Native culture?

I read this as, its bad for the reason puckcool suggested, but as for the more prevalent reason, it's ok.

I don't hold anything against Shmee as there is nothing to suggest he is a racist. The implication of his statement through me a bit though.

Anyway, to keep this thread open, i'm posting this here and also copying it to the PC thread as SyPhi requested. If we wish to continue this, I will be there to do so.