Lance Armstrong's Place in history

[NJTank]

I think its without debate that he is the greatest cyclist of all time, now the debate is where does Lance Armstrong rank among the greatest athleetes of all-time.

In my book he is 4th

1. Babe Ruth

2. Michael Jordan

3. Wayne Gretzky

4. Lance Armstrong

5. Walter Payton

6. Carl Lewis

7. Willie Mays

8. Jack Nicklaus

9. Pete Sampras

10. Dan Marino

[slapshot]

What's funny about a lot of these lists is that a lot of people who should be ranked higher up aren't included.

I once saw Doug Flutie play in a charity hockey game. While definitely not NHL caliber, he made some outstanding saves. He displayed remarkable ability for someone who makes his living on the gridiron. He also plays basketball, golf, and the drums.

He's not in the top 10, but he's definitely #1 of all the athletes I've seen in person.

and yeah, Armstrong should be in the top 10.

[See Red]

Are you saying that he serves as one of the most athletic? or one of the best at what he does. I'd imagine it's the latter of the two.

Either way, i don't think it's fair to grill Barry Bonds for his being accused for doing steroids but ignore the fact that there is just as much proof of Lance Armstrong doing steroids.

All these lists are moronic. ESPN had Tiger Woods as a better athlete than Jerry Rice? Um... i'm not saying golf is not difficult, but it doesn't require nearly the level of athletecism as the other sports.

[jkrdevil]

I think Jim Thorpe has to be the greatest athlete ever.

The difference between Bonds and Armstrong is that Armstrong has taken drug tests and has passed everyone. Whereas Bonds has never taken a drug test (except for the one where the results aren't can't be disclose) so with him you have to be suspicious because of all the ties he has with Balco (he used to wear balco hats). If there was meaningful testing in baseball and Bonds passed then everyone would be off his case.

[NJTank]

I must sya im a tad embarased for forget Thorpe even so Ill slide him 5th below Armstrong.

[See Red]

But people grill Bonds because of people accusing him of taking them with so-called 'proof'.

Armstrong's teammates (maybe old teammates of his, not totally sure) said that Lance Armstrong made the decision to use illegal substances for the team. Those as legit as any statements accusing Bonds. And Bonds plays a sport where it's been proven that steroids make very little difference.

and I have to agree with ESPN's judgement not to long ago -- Jim Brown with Jim Thorpe in a close second.

Brown was one of the greatest NFL running backs of all time, an All-American lacrosse player who was one of the finest ever, averaged 38 points per game in high school basketball and lettered in hoops at Syracuse, finished fifth in the 1956 national decathlon championship, was offered a minor-league deal by the Yankees, and could have been a pro boxer after he retired.

Also -- if Bonds did pass a 'meaningful' steroid test, NOBODY would be off his case. Everyone's just on his case cuz' they hate him.

[CC97]

Don't forget Dave Winfield

[jkrdevil]

Yes, there have been accusations against Armstrong but he has passed every test he's taken. Bonds has not taken a test and when asked he has shied away.

And steriods have a big effect on baseball, 1 foot could be the difference from a hr or an out or a single from a double. Baseball is a game of inches and anything that can add 1 foot on to the baseball effects the game greatly.

Thorpe is better than Brown. Thorpe played in MLB, in the NFL, and was a gold medal olympian. By far he is the best IMO.

[See Red]

First off -- muscle is NOTHING if you don't have the mechanics and hand eye coordination, as well as bat speed. Those 3 things are FAR more important than strength in terms of hitting. Second off, how many of Barry Bonds' home runs just manage to scrape over the wall? Very few. I've heard steroid experts say they don't matter, I've heard hitting coaches say they don't matter.

There is a certain level in baseball in which you can be 'too strong' and steroids would merely help a player get to an ideal strength a little bit quicker. With, what is noted as some of the best work ethic in the game, it can be argued that Barry Bonds could easily get to that point with only the help of legal supplements.

And here's a description of a book about Lance Armstrong's involvement in doping.

Abt outlines the charges Emma O'Reilly, formerly Armstrong's personal masseuse, makes in the book:

Armstrong told O'Reilly his hematocrit was 41, nine percent below the permitted maximum, and that he was "going to do what the others do" to enhance it.

In July 1999, Armstrong asked her for makeup to cover bruises on his arm from injections. The authors maintain that legal injections are generally injected in the buttocks.

In May 1998, Armstrong asked her to dispose of syringes after the Tour of the Netherlands.

In May 1999, she ferried 24 pills from Johan Bruyneel, the USPS team director, to Armstrong near his home in Nice.

She provides details of Armstrong's 1999 positive test for steroids, claiming Armstrong told her he had used a steroid around the time of the Route du Sud that he thought would have cleared his system before the Tour. O'Reilly says doctors backdated a prescription for a legal cream containing the steroid, and organizers allowed it, even though the cream wasn't listed on Armstrong's mandatory medical form.

[NJTank]

Well Bonds should be innocent until proven guilty too but I do have my susepicions if he passes his test then nobody should bother him.

[MC Buffalo]

I have no problem with Lance Armstrong being in Tanks top 10, but Babe Ruth! The man was a great hitter but a great athlete? I don't think so. If Ruth were around today he would not be the dominant hitter he was back when there were very few pitchers the likes of Clemens, Martinez, R. Johnson, Maddux etc...

And a golfer should not be in the top ten either. If you rename it the Top Ten Athletes who had impacts on their sports then The Babe and The Golden Bear fit in the top ten perfectly, but from the way I read it the list is Top Athletes.

I even have some reservation about Gretzky number three, but since this is a Canadian based message board I will withhold my opinion on that rather than begin an "I hate gdffl86" campaign.

[Saintsfan]

I think trying to lisyt a top 10 athletes, multi disciplinary like this is worthless frankly!! Sorry!! How can anyone say babe Ruth was a better athlete than well goddammit anyine who has been a top ranked say basketball player or whatever! its impossible!

I did notice that all the names were American! Is it designed that way?? if not, then how about Don Bradman or Rod Laver or Daley Thompson or steve Redgrave or pele or diego Maradona or paavo Nurmi or Emil Zatopek etc etc etc etc.

Oh and there has been plenty of debate about how good Armstrong is compare dto Eddy Merkcx, Bernard Hinault etc etc by the way

[-kj]

The prevailing opinion seems to be that while Armstrong has now won more Tour g.c. titiles than anyone else, Merckx was a much better all-around rider, having won a few polka-dot (sprinter) and green (mountain) jerseys along the way, as well as riding and winning many more big events (Giro d'Italia, for example) outside of the Tour. This is not to say that Armstrong is not a great rider, but he does focus on the Tour to the exclusion of the other major, if lower-profile, events.

[STL FANATIC]

I don't think Bonds passing a steriod test does anything anymore. Unless you can test for anytime in the past 6-7 years, it means nothing. There may not be a way to know.

It's pretty obvious though. Look at him a couple years before he broke the record, look at him when he broke it. The man bulked up at an incredible rate. His stats jumped enormously.

The guy is undoubtedly a great baseball player. He's got great vision and coordination. Used to be able to play the field real well. He was really fast. A great makeup for a ballplayer. Then, he bulked up at an unheard of rate (yeah, I'm pretty convinced it was through steroids), he started crowding the plate and wearing body armor so a brushback pitch meant nothing, the umps became amazed by him and gave him a smaller strikezone, and his already really good stats became unbelievable.

Bonds is/was a really good maybe great player. I don't respect him anything past that even though his stats show him as an incredible player and one of the best if not the best ever.

As for best athlete...it's hard to say. I like Thorpe. The thing is, athlete implies more to me than some sports show. If you wanna rank em by greatest sports players all time, that's one thing, but athlete is another IMO. Although, as it has been pointed out, we don't know how good some players could be at other sports.

For what it's worth, I'll throw in a woman and say Jackie Joyner Kersey has to be somewhere up there (not saying top 10)...and the swimmer in me says don't forget about Spitz and whonot.

[jkrdevil]

I have no problem with Lance Armstrong being in Tanks top 10, but Babe Ruth! The man was a great hitter but a great athlete? I don't think so. If Ruth were around today he would not be the dominant hitter he was back when there were very few pitchers the likes of Clemens, Martinez, R. Johnson, Maddux etc...

And a golfer should not be in the top ten either. If you rename it the Top Ten Athletes who had impacts on their sports then The Babe and The Golden Bear fit in the top ten perfectly, but from the way I read it the list is Top Athletes.

I even have some reservation about Gretzky number three, but since this is a Canadian based message board I will withhold my opinion on that rather than begin an "I hate gdffl86" campaign.

I think Babe Ruth would be a dominate hitter today. You have to figure the ballparks are smaller now, the ball is tighters, plus who have the work out of today's. If Babe Ruth was coming up today he would be working out just like every other player. So there is no reason to think Ruth wouldn't be a dominant hitter in today's baseball. He hit more home runs than any other team when he played, now while if he played today he certaintly wouldn't hit more than any other teams but he would put up 60-70 home runs a year.

[Saintsfan]

The prevailing opinion seems to be that while Armstrong has now won more Tour g.c. titiles than anyone else, Merckx was a much better all-around rider, having won a few polka-dot (sprinter) and green (mountain) jerseys along the way, as well as riding and winning many more big events (Giro d'Italia, for example) outside of the Tour. This is not to say that Armstrong is not a great rider, but he does focus on the Tour to the exclusion of the other major, if lower-profile, events.

Jeez I am in a pedantic mood today!! The green Jersey is the 'sprinters' prize will the polka dot is for climbers.

[MC Buffalo]

I did notice that all the names were American!

Wait a minute, when did Gretzky become an American. I hope the paperwork isn't finished yet because Canada can have his whiny ass back....

[Saintsfan]

I did notice that all the names were American!

Wait a minute, when did Gretzky become an American. I hope the paperwork isn't finished yet because Canada can have his whiny ass back....

At least in the sense of coming from North America! And that just makes my point as to what a futile list it is! And if it is designed to be an American list, were is Muhammed Ali for instance! Or Roy Jones Jnr for instance! you just can't compare sports like that!

[-kj]

Jeez I am in a pedantic mood today!! The green Jersey is the 'sprinters' prize will the polka dot is for climbers.

Oops! That was really stupid of me.

[MC Buffalo]

I did notice that all the names were American!

Wait a minute, when did Gretzky become an American. I hope the paperwork isn't finished yet because Canada can have his whiny ass back....

At least in the sense of coming from North America! And that just makes my point as to what a futile list it is!

I agree with the futile statement. If someone had made this list after the Womens World Cup a few years ago Mia Hamm or Brandi Chastain would have been included.

The list usually reflects one or two people who have accomplished something extremely recent and the rest are the old standbyes that get listed everytime.

All "top 25 of all time" lists of all kinds should be banned immediately. ESPN is becoming the MTV of sports. The same way MTV stopped showing Music Video years ago, ESPN has stopped showing Sports. Now everything is "fringe" sports entertainment... game shows, top 25 shows, etc...

If they must fill hours of programming, show old sporting events like they do on Classic. I would much rather watch a 1974 football game between the Raiders and Steelers than "Dream Job"