Curt Schilling calls Barry Bonds a racist

[pcgd]

Saints, baseball was not behind most of the country. In many ways it was ahead of their times. Jim Crow laws allowing equal but seperate treatment were very much alive in the 50s and into the 60s, strongest in the southern regions. Jackie Robinson broke baseball's color barrier in 1947.

American had a horrible time in its history in regards to racism. Its something nobody in this country of any education is proud of. I had no part of it, my family had no part of it, and I'm ashamed of it. However, to say that baseball is a racist culture, is just wrong.

I think calling bonds a racist is a bit strong. However, his actions are not in the mold of Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, etc. Those players earned respect. They earned what they got. They didn't expect it handed to them and cry foul when something didn't go their way.

[Saintsfan]

Saints, baseball was not behind most of the country. In many ways it was ahead of their times. Jim Crow laws allowing equal but seperate treatment were very much alive in the 50s and into the 60s, strongest in the southern regions. Jackie Robinson broke baseball's color barrier in 1947.

American had a horrible time in its history in regards to racism. Its something nobody in this country of any education is proud of. I had no part of it, my family had no part of it, and I'm ashamed of it. However, to say that baseball is a racist culture, is just wrong.

I think calling bonds a racist is a bit strong. However, his actions are not in the mold of Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, etc. Those players earned respect. They earned what they got. They didn't expect it handed to them and cry foul when something didn't go their way.

But baseball's segregatioon was nationwide. There were no baseball teams in the South in the pre-Robinson era. yeah in some ways baseball was ahead of the nation, but in some ways it was behind the nation on racism.

And in my opinion baseball had a very racist culture. Hank Aaron received hate mail as he approached Ruth's 714 figure for instance. Yeah not everyone in Baseball was/is racist but mayny people certainly were. Many good and decent people were racist.

I was watching the ken burns' series the other day and say Ted Kopell (It was Koppel and not Dan Rather I think) interviewing some Dodgers man (I forget who) who was saying in 1987 that Balck people didn't have what it takes to be a manager. On national TV. Every step black players have taken in baseball has been a fight.

[Swiss]

But baseball's segregatioon was nationwide. There were no baseball teams in the South in the pre-Robinson era. yeah in some ways baseball was ahead of the nation, but in some ways it was behind the nation on racism.

Some little corrections, my Brit friend...

In the pre-Robinson era there were two Southerner franchises: the St. Louis Browns (AL) and the St. Louis Cardinals (NL).

Besides in that era, flying in plane was too expensive, it's not like now that every team could pay the air travel of the entire staff each week. So in that era, America was a bigger country than the one now to travel in.

It's why baseball didn't expand too much outside of the East Coast + the Great Lakes and St. Louis.

Let's see "Inning 8: A Whole New Game" of Ken Burns' Baseball. There you can see that the Dodgers began to use a own airplane to travel the enormous country.

[Saintsfan]

But baseball's segregatioon was nationwide. There were no baseball teams in the South in the pre-Robinson era. yeah in some ways baseball was ahead of the nation, but in some ways it was behind the nation on racism.

Some little corrections, my Brit friend...

In the pre-Robinson era there were two Southerner franchises: the St. Louis Browns (AL) and the St. Louis Cardinals (NL).

Besides in that era, flying in plane was too expensive, it's not like now that every team could pay the air travel of the entire staff each week. So in that era, America was a bigger country than the one now to travel in.

It's why baseball didn't expand too much outside of the East Coast + the Great Lakes and St. Louis.

Let's see "Inning 8: A Whole New Game" of Ken Burns' Baseball. There you can see that the Dodgers began to use a own airplane to travel the enormous country.

What they moved Missouri??? Unless my Geo-History is way off here Missouri was a bordewr state. It may have been in the confederacy (at this stage I can't lay my hands on a book to confirm or deny this!!) but it had no history of enforcing 'Jim Crow' Laws, which was my point.

And I wasn't commenting on the practicalities, but the fact remained that major league baseball practiced segregation wherever it was played until 1947. There was no segregation (at least legally framed segregation) outside if the 'Dixieland' states in the South.

Thats my point.

[pcgd]

NBA- Earl Lloyd 1950

NHL- Willie O'Ree 1958

NFL- Charles M Follis 1904 (But, from 1933-1946 there was a color barrier in the NFL)

4 Players (1946)

MLB- Jackie Robinson 1947

English National Team (Football/Soccer)- Viv Anderson- 1978

If you don't know what these names are, these are the players that broke the color barrier and the years they did it in their respective sports.

I really don't think I need to add anything to this...

[Saintsfan]

NBA- Earl Lloyd 1950

NHL- Willie O'Ree 1958

NFL- Charles M Follis 1904 (But, from 1933-1946 there was a color barrier in the NFL)

4 Players (1946)

MLB- Jackie Robinson 1947

English National Team (Football/Soccer)- Viv Anderson- 1978

If you don't know what these names are, these are the players that broke the color barrier and the years they did it in their respective sports.

I really don't think I need to add anything to this...

If this is a dig at soccer then remember that the black population in the UK was negligible prior to the 1950s, and the black population of the UK is still a far smaller percentage than it is the US. (I think roughly 3% in the UK or thereabouts without checking the figures), and it wasn't part of the culture of those black people who were in England. There was no bar on black players playing for England's soccer team, just none of the right standard was available. Black players were specifacally barred from playing MLB baseball.

I am not at all saying soccer has a perfect record on race issues, but the stain on baseball's history is far more distinctive and definite.

[JQK]

NBA- Earl Lloyd 1950

NHL- Willie O'Ree 1958

NFL- Charles M Follis 1904 (But, from 1933-1946 there was a color barrier in the NFL)

      4 Players (1946)

MLB- Jackie Robinson 1947

English National Team (Football/Soccer)- Viv Anderson- 1978

If you don't know what these names are, these are the players that broke the color barrier and the years they did it in their respective sports. 

I really don't think I need to add anything to this...

If this is a dig at soccer then remember that the black population in the UK was negligible prior to the 1950s, and the black population of the UK is still a far smaller percentage than it is the US. (I think roughly 3% in the UK or thereabouts without checking the figures), and it wasn't part of the culture of those black people who were in England. There was no bar on black players playing for England's soccer team, just none of the right standard was available. Black players were specifacally barred from playing MLB baseball.

I am not at all saying soccer has a perfect record on race issues, but the stain on baseball's history is far more distinctive and definite.

The stain on baseball is no more than any other sport. It was the culture of the time. Was it right? no, but it was what it was. So to say Baseball has a bigger stain than most isn't true.

And i was unaware of that fact with the English National Team. That is a truly stunning fact.

[CaolinaJoe]

If England had not brought the culture of slavery to the states in the first place we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

The Greatest player to ever play, PELE, had a full career and retired before England ever integrated. It is hard to believe that England had "just none of the right standard was available". That is just a quaint phrase that is used to cover blatant cultural racism. It's been used to prevent players from being QB's, Coaches, Front office, etc. And proven WRONG every time. But it is used till proven wrong, till someone has the balls to try and give someone a chance to prove it wrong.

The holier than thou attitude that you display at times is tiresome. Especially when you consider that state sponsored discrimination was the norm in Northern Ireland till just very recently.

[Saintsfan]

If England had not brought the culture of slavery to the states in the first place we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

The Greatest player to ever play, PELE, had a full career and retired before England ever integrated. It is hard to believe that England had "just none of the right standard was available". That is just a quaint phrase that is used to cover blatant cultural racism. It's been used to prevent players from being QB's, Coaches, Front office, etc. And proven WRONG every time. But it is used till proven wrong, till someone has the balls to try and give someone a chance to prove it wrong.

The holier than thou attitude that you display at times is tiresome. Especially when you consider that state sponsored discrimination was the norm in Northern Ireland till just very recently.

Like I said the black population of the UK was minimal until the 1950s, and it is still very small compared with the US or Brazil. Players like Viv Anderson, laurie Cunningham, Brendan Batson and Cyrille Regis had to fight intolerable racism from fans, sure, but never from any clubs not prepatred to sign any black players. Those black people coming to Britain in the 1950s and 60s came from a culture owhere soccer hadn't penetrated to any extent- the West Indies.

And yes slavery was a British institution, but it was abolished in the carribean in the 1830s, and we didn't need to fight a war to do it.

There are many episodes from British history that I am not proud of. Concentration camps in the Boer War, slavery, the Carbving up of the globe under the banner of imperialism, the inherent 'racism' of British policy towards Ireland. I could go on for a while yet. My point isn't at all Britain great US rubbish.

My point is that Baseball owners deliberatley formed a policy to exclude black players from its game for half a century. Not because they weren't talented but because they were black.

[pcgd]

I wasn't attempting to dig at soccer until I saw that figure. I started witht he other major sports because I knew baseball was bad, but no worse than any other league. My main point was that baseball with the exception of the NFL, was ahead of all other american sports. (They were only a year behind the NFL after they re-segregated the league) None of it was right, but baseball was no more racist than any other american sport at the time.

Once again, it was awful, those times are something a vast majority of americans are very ashamed of. "Everyone's doing it" is not a reason. But I'm just saying Baseball was no worse than any other sport.

You look at any country, anywhere, and there is a racist trends. Its very sad, but nobody is perfectly tolerant in this world so there shouldn't be anyone pointing any fingers here.

[corpse]

Well as for the NHL, Willie O'Ree was the first black player to hold a regular position on an NHL club (I have an article on this somewhere, when I find it I'll post it), not the first to break teh color barrier. Plus you have to remember that there was only 6-8 teams in the NHL until the expansion in '68. As well there wasn't much of an farm system from 1884 to 1965, as well there wasn't 20 players plus spares on each team. Most teams only had 1 goalie and for the better part of 1884 to 1930 there was only 8 players on a team. So thats only 50 players in the entire league (well unless of course you remember that from 1884 to the 1914, the "League Champ" was based on playoffs from 3-4 different leagues. So saying that it was more of a select group to begin with (especially if you look at the montreal squads).

BUT if you want to talk about being racist and what not you do not have to look past the old professional Montreal Hockey teams back in the early days. Montreal had a team for the french, the english, the Quebec seperatists, the Irish, etc. etc. etc. Hell even if you look until I believe it was 1983 when the Montreal franchise got their pick of the best French players (not the best players available just the french), as well for the longest time the Montreal clubs were completely biased and racist towards any nationality other then the one their club was based off of (such as the Montreal Wanderers, Montreal Maroons, etc.) relying soley on the Irish for players to play for the Irish, etc. etc. etc.

But even if you look at the NHL now, or really any professional, semi-pro, or junior (or below), there simply isn't many if any at all "black" players. But you also have to look at it that there isn't many "minority" players in the NHL. That is mainly because if you look at where the sport is a "Religion", it is truely a Canadian game, sure other places have a high fan base, but nothing like in Canada... You go anywhere else in the world and Hockey isn't a number one sport. It isn't even a top 4 sport in the minds of the public. In the US you got Football, Baseball, Basketball, Nascar, College sports, then comes the NHL (maybe). In Canada, its the NHL, WHL/QMJHL/OHL, then the CFL and thats about it... I mean we can't even get a Baseball league last more then half a season! Canada is all about hockey, always has been, always will be. ANd up until recently the CFL hasn't been even considered much of a National sport, especially with teams looking at folding, players leaving the CFL to go to the NFL.

[Mac6674]

The reason there aren't more minorities in hockey is more economic than anything. If you don't live somewhere like Canada or Minnesota where nature allows you to play outdoors for a large part of winter, the cost of trying to play hockey is astronomical. There's a ton of equipment needed, none of it cheap, plus you need to pay for ice time. The alternative at the same time a year is basketball, which requires no equipment and can usually be played for free in any town in America.

Back to Bonds; I don't know how Hank Aaron hasn't given Barry a beating yet. This guy got death threats when he approached the Babe's record, and growing up where and how he did, these were threats he had to take seriously. He suffered and persevered and now the only thing people will say about Bonds are things he brings upon himself. He has no idea what really dealing with racism on that level really is, so he should shut the hell up.

And whether or not Bonds is a racist, we know now that he's a cheater.

[CaolinaJoe]

I think the reason you won't hear too much from Aaron or Mays is BECAUSE Bonds is black. And eventually everyone attacking Bonds will be labeled a racist.

It's somewhat like politics. If a Republican does something bad, the Dems cause a huge uproar and other Republicans will condemn but in very mild terms. Same with the Democrats. Remember Clinton/Lewinsky situation. If that would have been a Republican president, Women Organizations around the world would have been looking for a hanging. But, since it was someone from their team they basically gave him a pass. Same here with Bonds.

This will eventually be twisted to where the white press is the reason Bonds even had to consider doing roids. How the government has always been out to persecute black athletes. Something ridiculous. I'm just waiting for Johnny Cochran to offer to defend him and Jesse Jackson to offer to talk to Selig for him.

[random]

Aaron just chastized Bonds for suspected steroid use.

Man, i can't wait for the asterisk debate (756*)