RIP to the big three

[FiddySicks]

as a big baseball fan im in mourning over the loss of two of the big three, hudson to Atlanta and Mulder to St Louis. I cant help but repeat what A's outfielder Eric Byrnes said after he found out the news " What the hell is going on here?!?!?!" no doubt the big three was the best three man rotation ive ever seen. and possibly the most talent ever between three professional baseball players. thoughts and opinions of these possibly deadly decisions by Billy Beane would help a lot.

[VandyDelphia Mike]

I can't help but begin to make parallels between Billy Beane and Jerry Krause, and the breakup of the Bulls dynasty. Granted, the A's didn't win any titles, but maybe Beane is so in love with his ability to evaluate talent that he has this notion that he's the reason for the success, and not just the architect of it. We all know how well that worked for Jerry Krause, as Tim Floyd and Marcus Fizer have so many NBA championship rings, one has lost count ...

[STL FANATIC]

Beane has a strict budget, and he has done a tremendous job of setting up for a cheap and bright future though these trades. It sucks when a team has to trade away it's big names, but it's a sad reality.

If anything blame the owners, for Beane has and is doing a tremendous job with his resources.

[KennyRock]

Just one comment about the Bulls analogy. That dynasty was over when Michael Jordan re-retired in 1998. Remember, the Bulls had much the same team in 94' and 95', and didn't even make it to the Finals because Jordan wasn't there. If Klause hadn't made the moves he did, the Bulls would have been left with a team where a lot of guys were getting good money but the team wouldn't have won another title.

As for the A's, I certainly understand the Tim Hudson deal. 2005 was Hudson's walk year. The A's had a lot of money locked up in Barry Zito through 2007. They knew they'd have to either let Hudson or Mulder go. Then, Hudson told the club they either had to re-sign him by March 1st or he would walk at the end of the 2005 season. If you were any GM ,regardless oif your name is Billy Beane or not, you'd look to trade Hudson, and get something rather than let him walk away for nothing.

When it comes down to Mulder, it took me a while, but I think the Hudson deal made Beane realize something: The A's hadn't won a title in four years with the Big Three, and Mulder had serious injury problems at the end of the season. With Zito as their investment, they decided to unload Mulder and get Kiko Calero, Danny Haren and Eric Barton, which is a vast improvement over what the A's got from the Hudson trade. The A's middle relief is stronger now, and maybe that will assist Joe Blanton and Danny Haren as they step into the voids left by Mulder and Hudson. Billy Beane, in my mind, is the best General Manager in baseball. You can make arguments for Schuerholz, but in my mind, the Braves' success should be more accredited to Bobby Cox. And please don't argue Brian Cashman - I like the Yankees and all, but he doesn't have financial constraints to deal with. Beane had made creative trade after creative trade, and all under a low budget. In the past four years, now, the A's have lost Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson.... and I have a gut feeling they'll STILL be a contender in the AL West in 2005.

[RyanB06]

Beane has a strict budget, and he has done a tremendous job of setting up for a cheap and bright future though these trades. It sucks when a team has to trade away it's big names, but it's a sad reality.

If anything blame the owners, for Beane has and is doing a tremendous job with his resources.

Exactly. "Moneyball" at its finest.

Oakland had a shot at making some noise this season, now they're probably missing the playoffs for the second straight year.

Well, that's one less team for Boston to worry about next season!

[FiddySicks]

Beane has a strict budget, and he has done a tremendous job of setting up for a cheap and bright future though these trades. It sucks when a team has to trade away it's big names, but it's a sad reality.

If anything blame the owners, for Beane has and is doing a tremendous job with his resources.

you hit the nail right on the head. in a situation like this, I cant stand owners like that. dose anyone know if the MLB has a deadline for turning in your budget?

[STL FANATIC]

Billy Beane, in my mind, is the best General Manager in baseball. You can make arguments for Schuerholz, but in my mind, the Braves' success should be more accredited to Bobby Cox. And please don't argue Brian Cashman - I like the Yankees and all, but he doesn't have financial constraints to deal with. Beane had made creative trade after creative trade, and all under a low budget. In the past four years, now, the A's have lost Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson.... and I have a gut feeling they'll STILL be a contender in the AL West in 2005.

When I look at these two trades Beane has made and realize he was forced to do it because of money, I do think he is a great GM.

However, I'll put my money on Walt Jocketty. Yeah, I'm a homer, but there are very legit reasons. He didn't win the executive of the year award for nothing.

Yes, he does have more money than Beane to work with, but he's still strapped. The Cardinals are pushing it if their budget gets to 88 million. Jocketty makes that work.

When a guy wants too much, such as Renteria, he lets him go because it is the smart move (although he nearly overpaid for Renteria, but Edgar had to go for the extra million...).

He works behind the scenes to get names like Walker and Mulder. Nobody knew that stuff was coming. He put together a semi cheap but solid pitching staff of #2 and #3 pitchers. They were second best staff in the league. Missed first by like a thousandth of an ERA point.

He got Tony Womack for nothing from Boston, and he was solid second baseman and a strong leadoff hitter.

Walt also has Pujols and Rolen locked up for many years for what seemed like pretty expensive contracts, but now has proven to be great because contracts are very inflated this year. Edmonds also has some years left.

Last year Jocketty made an extradinary trade. One that in the short term payed off for both teams, but is now all about the Cardinals. JD Drew and Eli Marrero to the Braves for Jason Marquis, Ray King, and Adam Wainwright. Drew and Marrero are both gone from ATL now (Drew via FA, Marrero traded for some relief pitcher), but Marquis won 15 games for the Cards last year and is back, Wainwright remains a top prospect, and King is potentially the top lefty setup man in the game. King duoed with Kline from the left side last year, and this year made Kline expendable (though nobody wanted to lose Kline--came down to money and minor leaguers coming up).

Right now, the Cards are in a hole at 2nd and Short, and the options are slowly fading, but I have complete faith Walt will pull something great out.

I guess I didn't really need to go through all that stuff, but I just couldn't believe you didn't even mention Jocketty.

[JamesCraven]

Let's point the finger of blame away from Billy Beane and the real culprits, names of Al Davis, City of Oakland and County of Alamediocre.

[KennyRock]

Billy Beane, in my mind, is the best General Manager in baseball.  You can make arguments for Schuerholz, but in my mind, the Braves' success should be more accredited to Bobby Cox.  And please don't argue Brian Cashman - I like the Yankees and all, but he doesn't have financial constraints to deal with.  Beane had made creative trade after creative trade, and all under a low budget.  In the past four years, now, the A's have lost Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson.... and I have a gut feeling they'll STILL be a contender in the AL West in 2005.

When I look at these two trades Beane has made and realize he was forced to do it because of money, I do think he is a great GM.

However, I'll put my money on Walt Jocketty. Yeah, I'm a homer, but there are very legit reasons. He didn't win the executive of the year award for nothing.

Yes, he does have more money than Beane to work with, but he's still strapped. The Cardinals are pushing it if their budget gets to 88 million. Jocketty makes that work.

When a guy wants too much, such as Renteria, he lets him go because it is the smart move (although he nearly overpaid for Renteria, but Edgar had to go for the extra million...).

He works behind the scenes to get names like Walker and Mulder. Nobody knew that stuff was coming. He put together a semi cheap but solid pitching staff of #2 and #3 pitchers. They were second best staff in the league. Missed first by like a thousandth of an ERA point.

He got Tony Womack for nothing from Boston, and he was solid second baseman and a strong leadoff hitter.

Walt also has Pujols and Rolen locked up for many years for what seemed like pretty expensive contracts, but now has proven to be great because contracts are very inflated this year. Edmonds also has some years left.

Last year Jocketty made an extradinary trade. One that in the short term payed off for both teams, but is now all about the Cardinals. JD Drew and Eli Marrero to the Braves for Jason Marquis, Ray King, and Adam Wainwright. Drew and Marrero are both gone from ATL now (Drew via FA, Marrero traded for some relief pitcher), but Marquis won 15 games for the Cards last year and is back, Wainwright remains a top prospect, and King is potentially the top lefty setup man in the game. King duoed with Kline from the left side last year, and this year made Kline expendable (though nobody wanted to lose Kline--came down to money and minor leaguers coming up).

Right now, the Cards are in a hole at 2nd and Short, and the options are slowly fading, but I have complete faith Walt will pull something great out.

I guess I didn't really need to go through all that stuff, but I just couldn't believe you didn't even mention Jocketty.

Oh, man, don't get me wrong... I like Walt Jocketty, and I apologize for not mentioning him. The only reason I chose to use Cashman and Schuerholz as examples was because I'm from the east, so they were the first good GM's that popped into my head. I was more trying to make a case for Beane that put any other GM down.

That said, there are a lot of ways to make an argument. If you look at postseason success, I think Jocketty wins there. But I think Beane is a stronger candidate in terms of assembling a roster given the constraints he has. It's probably impossible to unquestionably prove who is better - Beane does a lot with less money, but Jocketty's team made it all the way to the World Series.

I put my vote out for Beane for now, but your points about Jocketty made me that much more eager to see how those two teams play this year... I might even track the progress of Oakland and St. Louis on the boards. You have Oakland, who will enter 2005 without the Big Three for the first time since Zito became an Athletic, and St. Louis, that acquired the one piece it was missing in the World Series last year. I think it's a really interesting storyline, considering those positions came about on a single deal(two for Oakland, but losing Hudson doesn't change the face of the A's as much as losing Hudson AND Mulder).

[KennyRock]

By the way, STL, think Cairo will become a Redbird again?

[Cyclopsis Joe]

Everyone is complaining: "The A's don't have enough money!"

Then these same people turn around and complain about how much money the Yanks and BoSox have..

So, all I have to say to you Oakland fans is:

Hahaha, hahaha, hahahahahahaha. *cartman*

---A Braves Fan.

[FiddySicks]

Everyone is complaining: "The A's don't have enough money!"

Then these same people turn around and complain about how much money the Yanks and BoSox have..

So, all I have to say to you Oakland fans is:

Hahaha, hahaha, hahahahahahaha. *cartman*

---A Braves Fan.

accually the A's have the money but the owners wont pony up the cash so that the A's can be competitive

[KennyRock]

I never said the A's don't have money - but, they only let Beane work with a limited amount - it's the case with every team except for the Yankees, Red Sox and some times the Mets - other teams let their payroll spike from time to time, like the Angels, but it's infrequent.

[Cyclopsis Joe]

Exactly what I mean..if they did, everyone would attack them for being "cheatin bass fishermen who are tardy to school" or whatever we call the yankees these days.

[KennyRock]

Heh, personally, I'll never attack a team for spending money, but you're right, that's prolly what would happen.

[STL FANATIC]

By the way, STL, think Cairo will become a Redbird again?

I wouldn't mind it for the right price, but I think there is a better chance they'll try to sign Eckstein or Hairston in a trade.

As for the GM stuff, yeah, Beane has to be up there. I never noticed what he's done until I looked at the Mulder and Hudson trades, but he does what he has to with the money he's allowed...and he does a great job.

I don't know what the A's payroll is, but in many cases, the Cards become strapped for cash too.

I mean, Edgar Renteria was the Cardinals number one priority of the offseason. The Yankees and Red Sox WILL get their number one priorities if it's a matter money. The Cardinals have to stop at a certain point. That's just an example to show that Walt works with some restraints also, though it's obvious Beane has stricter ones.

Right now, while Walt did get his missing piece, two other pieces fell out that he has to replace, so we'll see how that goes.

Walt works under the radar, so while I look around and want to panic because there is nobody left to get, I take comfort in the fact that Walt always pulls something out.

I think the Cards need to sure up the middle infield to become winners this offseason, but we looked like sure losers until Walt came out of nowhere with that Mulder trade.

And while Beane didn't have to make that trade then, I think it is gonna turn out really positive for the A's as well.

[omnivore]

I think he could've gotten more for Mulder. I think the issue - and this was really smart and fails to happen enough - that they traded both players out of the league.

Too often ::cough Toronto Blue Jays:: teams trade players within their league or god-forbid, their own division and it's like killing yourself, unless you're so sure the player is washed up or whatever. Or if it's a steal.

But, most often it's not. But still, he's no doubt a great evaluator of talent to even HAVE those guys in an organization to trade. You look at the guys who've come out of that organization over the past 20 years - if not prior - and it's really amazing.

In some ways, it does show you what's wrong with baseball. It's not even an issue of not wanting them or whatever, it's just the dog eat dog nature of the sport. And the people who run it seem too inept to understand the ramifications.

Though, I'm just bitter 'cuz I'm a Jays fan.

Here's a question. Do we think that Delgado, provided he stays on pace, will be the Jays 1st HOF player? Jack Morris will make it someday, but as a Tiger or Twin. Do we have anyone on the horizon?

[FiddySicks]

hey, dont get me wrong i love billy beane. my favorite baseball team is the Sacramento Rivercats, who are the triple A team for the A's. and that whole farm system is incredible. i just wish that the A's didnt have to be a farm system to the rest of the MLB, if you know what i mean

[KennyRock]

Hey, rbronson, I have two guys for ya - both had stellar 2003 seasons, and had their 04' seasons hamperted by injury.

Number one, Roy Halladay. He's been a Blue Jays lifer, and he went 22-7 in 2003, winning the Cy Yopung award for the AL. Those 22 wins, by the way, were 25% of the Jays wins for the entire 2003 season. If he avoids the injury bug, I don't see how you can not consider him a good candidate for the HOF - and at age 27, he's got another good 10 years to improve and add to that resume.

Number two is Vernon Wells - he hit 33 homers, drove in 117 runs and batted .317 in 2003 - Hall of Fame numbers if I ever saw them. And, if I remember, he was voted the Japan All-Star Series MVP this year. Not to mention he's also a Jays lifer, and he's only 26.

If Toronto holds on to those players, both young, both with dynamite seasons under their belt, you have two future Jays Hall of Famers.

By the way... the Jays haven't made it to the postseason, period, since they won it all in 93. 94 was the strike year, and 95 saw the introduction of the League Division Series - it's amazing that if the Jays were in the AL Central, they likely would have been to the postseason three or four times since 93'. I love the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry, being a New Yorker myself, but I'll cheer the day when the Jays, O's or Devil Rays(be the 1st for them) win the division again

[pcgd]

I think I'll chime in on this trade...

To me, this was a bad trade for the A's. Like my friend told me (he's a cubs fan, but he was born that way so you can't really hate him for it) if you're Billy Beane talking trading one of the big three to St. Louis, you don't talk to them unless the first words out of Walt Jocketty's mouth is "Ankiel." Danny Haren's a great pitcher and all, and I could be completely wrong. But I don't think he's ace material. You traded for a guy that's been floating between AAA and the Majors for the last 2 or 3 years, for a team that is by no means, a great pitching team. He's a typical young right-handed pitcher. Decent power, decent breaking ball. In Ankiel, the risk is there, but his stuff is outstanding. Mid 90's fastball, curve compared seriously to Kolfax's, and he's left-handed.

The other guys, Calero, is a good 1-2 inning pitcher. But those are also a dime a dozen. And then Barton is a good prospect, but he was in A ball last year. Who knows how he'll turn out.

At least for both teams, they traded outside of the league. The cardinals would potentially have to face these guys at most 10 times ever, and the A's might face Muelder 2 or 3 times in a World Series, or inter-league play.