NBA Awards Thread

[See Red]

Kings got -- 31.2 PPG, 5.9 ASP, 20.8 RPG

Sixers got -- 16.3 PPG, 3.3 ASP, 7.8 RPG, one of the softest players in the league

Those stats are all post-trade. Kenny Thomas' stats alone were just a notch below Chris Webbers' -- and the rest of the guys the Sixers acquired did nothing.

**edit -- I should also add that Webber makes more money than Allen Iverson and, I believe, more money than Thomas, Williamson, and Skinner (whom he was traded for) combined.

[EagleFan344]

Sixers: 30-31 without Webber (.492), 13-8 with Webber (.619). If that isnt an improvement what is?

Kings: 34-21 (.618) before the trade. 16-11 (.593) after.

Sixers got better, Kings got worse. Sixers with Webber were even better than the Kings without him

[BigMac12]

Iverson might've had his team not struggled for an eight seed. Basically, LeBron wouldn't have won it had the Cavs gotten the 7th or 8th seed... so I can't possibly see how Iverson could've, because LeBron is the more efficient player and had less help.

But that's neither here nor there. Shaq should've gotten the award. The Heat were a what, 4 or 5 seed last year? And that team atleast had Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and Brian Grant (who was decent at the time) -- This Heat team without Shaq would be nowhere near the playoffs, especially considering they didn't pick up Mourning until well into the season.

Plus, I think Nash's team is far too talented. You can't tell me that you couldn't throw half the PG's in the league into the Suns line-up and get very, very similar production.

The fact that Shaq plays Center, a position it's not usually easy to replace, should've clinched it for him.

No, if you seen the Suns in January without Nash, they fell apart. Barbosa is not that great. Nash deserves to be MVP, since you cannot replace a valuable leader and point guard.

[See Red]

Sixers: 30-31 without Webber (.492), 13-8 with Webber (.619). If that isnt an improvement what is?

Kings: 34-21 (.618) before the trade. 16-11 (.593) after.

Sixers got better, Kings got worse. Sixers with Webber were even better than the Kings without him

Which is why the Webber-less Kings beat the Sixers (with Webber) twice, right? Besides... second half records don't show injuries to Peja, Brad Miller, etc.

Chris Webber is a soft player -- considering you're paying him more than AI -- if he was half the player you'd payed for, the Sixers would've won the Atlantic with relative ease. Congratulations, the 76ers got a superstar to compliment Iverson. Now if only they'd got him before he was past his prime and on a steady decline. Kings got the better end because 1. They kept Peja happy 2. It'll be easier to work those three guys into trades than it would be to work one overpriced Webber 3. they got better production for less money 4. Webber is 31 or 32 years old -- the 76ers will be giving him more money than AI until 2008... he's already not the player has was 2 or 3 years ago, plus he's been injury prone. Additionally, Webber hasn't showed up to a big game -- he's still all messed out from calling that timeout at Michigan.

And BigMac, I have to disagree... you can throw guys like Mike Bibby, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Kidd, Jamal Tinsley, or any solid PG intothe Suns line-up and expect similar results. You can't do that with Shaq. There's no player in the league as dominant as him. The value of a Shaq (in a position that's tough to find great talent) is astronomical compared to the value of a Steve Nash.

[BigMac12]

And BigMac, I have to disagree... you can throw guys like Mike Bibby, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Kidd, Jamal Tinsley, or any solid PG intothe Suns line-up and expect similar results. You can't do that with Shaq. There's no player in the league as dominant as him. The value of a Shaq (in a position that's tough to find great talent) is astronomical compared to the value of a Steve Nash.

So, tell me, why did the Suns suffer when Leandro Barbosa was the Pont Gaurd? It doesn't make sense. Zo is as good a player as Shaq. The Heat would be fine without him. Zo would step it up. Barbosa just doesn't cut it. Nash is infinitly greater to the Suns than Shaq is to the Heat.

[See Red]

Alonzo Mourning is as good as Shaq?

I'll let you think about that one.

[BigMac12]

Alonzo Mourning is as good as Shaq?

I'll let you think about that one.

Just take a look at his stats during the playoffs and the pieces fall into place. It's not rocket science.

[Cujo]

Mourning as good as Shaq? Even in Zo's prime, he's never been better than Shaq. Idiot.

[BigMac12]

Mourning as good as Shaq? Even in Zo's prime, he's never been better than Shaq. Idiot.

Thanks for that comment. That's real estute for you to make. But, still, Zo is Miami's backup plan. If Shaq goes down, Zo will pick up the slack. You don't see that with Nash and the Suns.

[See Red]

Alonzo Mourning is as good as Shaq?

I'll let you think about that one.

Just take a look at his stats during the playoffs and the pieces fall into place. It's not rocket science.

Name a big man that plays for New Jersey that's worth anything.

Shaq is a top 50 player all-time and pretty much agreed to as the most dominant player in the league. Mourning isn't anywhere near Shaq at this point. There's not one center in the league that can do what Shaq does -- I already rattled off 4 point guards that could do what Nash does.

[BigMac12]

Alonzo Mourning is as good as Shaq?

I'll let you think about that one.

Just take a look at his stats during the playoffs and the pieces fall into place. It's not rocket science.

Name a big man that plays for New Jersey that's worth anything.

Shaq is a top 50 player all-time and pretty much agreed to as the most dominant player in the league. Mourning isn't anywhere near Shaq at this point. There's not one center in the league that can do what Shaq does -- I already rattled off 4 point guards that could do what Nash does.

And, yet, Barbosa had his shot to be just as good as Nash, and he failed miserably. You can't just plug in any point guard in and make this team work like Nash does. It's moot now to debate this. Only Shaq fans are moaning about it. Let's move on to other things.

[See Red]

I can't stand Shaq. So no, it's not only the Shaq fans that are moaning about this. And this debate started after Nash was named MVP -- so why's it suddenly a moot point? Because even you don't believe that a second year point guard out of Brazil can step in and lead the league in assists?

The Suns half court offense is based off of illegal moving screens and penetrating, and then kicking out to 3pt shooters, or kicking it to Amare for an uncontested dunk. You can plug in just about half of the starting PG's in this league into that system and expect success. And it's not as though when Nash was out, they were losing to the Bobcats and Hawks. Two games that they lost were to the Pistons and the Wizards... two playoff teams, I'm not sure what other games he missed besides those. Had they been able to shoot (3 for 17 from 3 against the Pistons) maybe Barbosa would've gotten a good amount of assists.

Besides... how many times has a complete defensive liability won the MVP before?

[BigMac12]

I can't stand Shaq.  So no, it's not only the Shaq fans that are moaning about this.  And this debate started after Nash was named MVP -- so why's it suddenly a moot point?  Because even you don't believe that a second year point guard out of Brazil can step in and lead the league in assists?

The Suns half court offense is based off of illegal moving screens and penetrating, and then kicking out to 3pt shooters, or kicking it to Amare for an uncontested dunk.  You can plug in just about half of the starting PG's in this league into that system and expect success.  And it's not as though when Nash was out, they were losing to the Bobcats and Hawks.  Two games that they lost were to the Pistons and the Wizards... two playoff teams, I'm not sure what other games he missed besides those.  Had they been able to shoot (3 for 17 from 3 against the Pistons) maybe Barbosa would've gotten a good amount of assists.

Besides... how many times has a complete defensive liability won the MVP before?

First, if you can't stand Shaq, why root for him for MVP? That doesn't make any sense.

Second, when do the Suns do illegal screens? Do you have proof? To say that the Suns play cheap without proof is really showing you have no credibility.

Third, as I said, you can't just replace Nash with any other player. If you can understand this, you can see why the Suns struggle without him. Try to understand this point.

[See Red]

First, I don't think the MVP Award should go to which player I like the most. I'm not saying I wanted him to win the MVP -- I said he should of. Awards don't go to the most liked.

Second, every team in the NBA gets away with illegal screens... but when I've watched the Suns play, I've never seen it as often as they do it in their half court offense. Do you expect me to just videotape a Suns game just so I have proof? How can I prove it? To accuse them of doing that without proof is not having any possible way to prove it -- it doesn't show that I lack credibility.

Try to understand THIS... there are many different PG's that can replace Steve Nash in this league. Just because they lost a few games without him means nothing considering some of the teams they played. There is NOT ONE player in the NBA that can replace Shaq. And if you believe otherwise, you're the only one.

[Phil]

Shaq may be dominant, but there was too much turnover in the Miami roster to legitimately isolate Shaq as the variable that changed everything. The Suns had some turnover too, but they didn't make the huge trade that Miami did.

I also think Nash brought a lot of intangibles like floor leadership and excitement to the Suns, and I think the voting reflected the impact that had on the team as well.

Shaq may have valuable skills and size, but I've never considered his intangibles to be a huge part of the package. Telling people to get him the ball in the low post isn't the apex of leadership.

[CC97]

The Heat improved from 4th to 1st... and you're using that as a reason why Shaq deserves it more than Nash????

The Suns went from 29-53 and one of the worst in the league in 03/04 to 62-20 and the top team in the league in 04/05.... look at how the Suns performed without Nash compared to while he was there and you will plainly see that Nash was the most valuable player to his team during the 2004/05 season.

Congratulations Steve, finally a deserving player won the award rather than most popular.

[Gary]

according to the Arizona Republic, Mike D'Antoni Head Coach of the Phoenix Suns, is expected to be named Coach of the Year by the NBA

League source says D'Antoni has won Coach of Year honor

[Cujo]

Second, every team in the NBA gets away with illegal screens... but when I've watched the Suns play, I've never seen it as often as they do it in their half court offense. Do you expect me to just videotape a Suns game just so I have proof? How can I prove it? To accuse them of doing that without proof is not having any possible way to prove it -- it doesn't show that I lack credibility.

Let me get this straight. First, we were just blaming the refs for screwing Denver in the Nuggets 4-1 series loss to the Spurs, and now they somehow fixed the MVP voting in favor of Nash. Wow.

[BigMac12]

Try to understand THIS... there are many different PG's that can replace Steve Nash in this league. Just because they lost a few games without him means nothing considering some of the teams they played. There is NOT ONE player in the NBA that can replace Shaq. And if you believe otherwise, you're the only one.

And you don't understand that Nash just can't be replaced by any other point gaurd. Sorry, but your argument just doesn't make sense. If you put Duncan at the Center position instead of Shaq, you'll have the same results. Nash deserves that award infinintly more than Shaq, considering that Shaq had actually a down year statisitcally wise. Do the research yourself, and that'll be the proof I need.

[See Red]

Let me get this straight.  First, we were just blaming the refs for screwing Denver in the Nuggets 4-1 series loss to the Spurs, and now they somehow fixed the MVP voting in favor of Nash.  Wow. 

No, I'm saying the NBA Officials don't call moving screens league-wide. No team takes advantage of this more than the Suns -- more power to them. Their halfcourt offense benefits from that, and so do Nash's stats. But thinking about it, it's a moot point because Shaq benefits from calls a lot as well. At what point did I say that they fixed the voting to favor Steve Nash? Go ahead and try and grill me for more things I've never said.

Ok, off of that idiot -- I think the 'roster turnover' argument favors Shaq in this case.

Yeah, they were a #4 seed in the playoffs last year -- but they lost 3 of their 5 Starters and with them, they were STILL only a 4 seed in a weak conference, and more-so, a weak division. They were STILL only 42-40. Let's put this into perspective... the Nuggets were the #8 seed in the West at 43-39. In addition to that, you can assume that if the Heat played in the West, they'd have been sub-.500 due to the tougher schedule. And that team got rid of their 3 best players. Other than Shaq (And Mourning, late), they didn't make any huge pickups that I can remember. So Shaq stands as pretty much being the difference.

Consider that the Suns have 7 players that shoot over 35% career for 3 pointers... 4 of them weren't there last year -- and consider that 3 of them are on the court with Steve Nash at any given time. The ability to drive and dish isn't terribly difficult when the court is as spread out as those 3 point shooters make it, especially with an improved Amare Stoudemire downlow.