La Russa, Schilling, Renteria Controversy

[STL FANATIC]

I know there's a lot of Boston representation on these boards, so we'll see what the responses are like, but what's up with this whole Tony La Russa, Curt Schilling, and Edgar Renteria controversy?

Here's a quick recap for anyone who doesn't know what this is about:

This offseason, the Cardinals stretched their budget and were prepared to overpay Renteria to keep him by offering him $39 million over 4 years. The Red Sox easily offered him $40 million. (I've never seen definates for these offers, but I do know they were know more than $5 mill apart, and I believe less than that.) Despite saying he loved St. Louis and wanted to stay if possible, Renteria jumped ship for Boston stating they showed him more respect.

Sure, we St. Louis fans were/are bitter. I mean, first off, the offers are really close to begin with. Second off, the Cards offer compared to their payroll is much better than the Sox offer compared to their payroll. The respect excuse sucks.

Regardless of how mad we were at Edgar, we could still look at it objectively. Few of us figured Edgar would do great immediatley or perhaps at all in Boston. He may be "Mr. Clutch" in baseball pressure situations, but he has never played well when there is outside pressure. For instance, in 2001 when there were trade rumors, he played horrible until Jocketty announced he would not be traded. Anyways, the fans in Boston are much less forgiving than in St. Louis, so we didn't expect Edgar to play that well with that pressure.

And to this point, Edgar hasn't played well under that pressure. So then, at an event to promote his new book, the topic of Renteria somehow got brought up. La Russa basically said Edgars struggling and it's possibly because of all the pressure he's facing in Boston. He basically just said Edgars shy and sensitive and so the environment in Boston isn't helping him.

For whatever reason, Curt Schilling felt the need to call a Boston radio station twice to complain about TLR's comments saying he backed Edgar into a corner and that he's not helping Edgar at all.

I cannot figure out how La Russa said anything wrong, but whatever. All La Russa said is what every Cardinals fan predicted a long time ago and is happening.

Here's a really good column on the whole thing by St. Louis Post-Dispatch columnist Bernie Miklasz.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/co...63?OpenDocument

This excerpt makes me sick. Especially the part in bold. There's no need to get in an argument about who has the best fans in baseball, but I think everyone knows St. Louis makes a lot of people's lists. For Edgar to play here for 6 years (I think) and be treated well and talk so good about his time here, and then to go over to Boston, do horrible and be booed and then claim they are the best fans in baseball kills me. I'm almost sorry I ever rooted for him.

The Red Sox open a three-game series at Busch Stadium on June 6, and but it probably won't be the anticipated homecoming for Renteria.

"I'm done with St. Louis already, and I play with Boston right now. It's my house right now, my family," Renteria told reporters who cover the Red Sox.

There's more.

"I know the fans in Boston are the best in baseball," Renteria told reporters Tuesday in Toronto. "When you perform the way you're supposed to, they're behind you. When I play the way I'm supposed to play, the Boston fans will be behind me."

(Doesn't that make them front-runners?)

As for La Russa's comments, Renteria said, "I don't know why Tony would say that. I wanted to play in Boston. They offered me the best contract and I knew I wanted to come to Boston. I think the fans are great there. I knew what a great place to play Boston is and I haven't changed my mind about that. I'm going to show Tony that I can play here."

The Cardinals-Red Sox series just became a lot more intriguing.

Thoughts?

[pcgd]

Jeez...life was so much simple before we lost a star to the red sox.

TLR (tony la russa) at times says the wrong thing. He's not perfect. He's no worse than anyone else and I'm not one that defends his every action. He's an incredible manager, a good person around the community, and his teams win.

Saying that, what did he say that was so wrong? I don't get it. I mean, I think you only need to look at the stuggles of Renteria in Boston, and the struggles of Molina in St. Louis to see the whole point of this arguement. Look at renteria, he's struggling a bit in the pressure cooker that is boston baseball. His agent should have told him about this. He's booed when he K's in the SECOND inning of a interleague game. What?

To contrast, No a single time did Molina get booed in is 1 for 32 start. He was cheered in every single at bat. He'd come up with teh bases loaded, strike out, and it was fine. Everyone says as long as his defense is good, we don't care. Well, he was dropping pitches and having trouble getting in sync with the pitchers. But we didn't boo. Guess what happened? Molina was arguably the best player these last couple weeks for the cardinals. Game winning single, 4-4 night with 4 RBI's. Not only that, the kid's throw out 7 of 13 base stealers and perhaps has one of the best throwing arms for a catcher in the game. The fans were ok with him, cause he wore Cardinal Red. Fans in St. Louis do that. In fact, they WILL cheer for edgar when he comes to play in St. Louis no matter what happens.

Some of this comes down to something that's been floating around for about a week. It compares the stats of Eckstein/Grudz to Renteria/Womack. Right now, Eck and Grudz are doing much better at the plate and in the field than Renteria/Womack. they've displayed the graphic for cardinal games a few times. I wonder if some people on the East coast see that as we are glad Edgar is gone, which is not the case. I liked Edgar, and I like Eckstein. We have who we have now.

I don't see the point for Curt Shilling to make such a big deal out of a non-issue. LaRussa said what everyone knows, Boston breeds pressure. Edgar isn't a player that thrives on that. Were we upset he left? Yes, but everyone wished him well in Boston. It was edgar that said the weird things. He said he felt betrayed by the cardinals for some reason, I mean they were willing to sacrifice their need of an Ace to keep him there. He says Boston fans are real fans cause they treat you good when you play good. I'm not here to say Boston fans aren't good fans, you are crazy to say a team that was followed that well for 86 years of losing baseball are bad fans. But, the unsaid thing there to me is that he didn't feel appreciated in St. Louis.

Well, either way, good luck to you Edgar. You were a great Cardinal, and you kept the legacy of cardinals shortstops intact. I wish him well until he comes to st. louis and if we see him in the world series again. But there are no ill feelings.

[yh]

Edgar was treated as well in St. Louis as any post-Ozzie Smith shortstop in St. Louis can expect to be treated. I'm sure much of the reason for Edgar's comments were to play to the Boston fans and not so much to slam St. Louis's fans. And Schilling, I believe, simply piped up - perhaps a bit too aggressively - to defend a teammate he felt was being disrespected. I read an article not to long ago that suggests Schilling had some kind of transformational experience last fall when he got hurt and it's affected his personality more than just a little bit. That could be playing into this thing as well. In any event, I don't expect any long-running turmoil to come out of this.

[Plaid Paint]

I know there's a lot of Boston representation on these boards, so we'll see what the responses are like, but what's up with this whole Tony La Russa, Curt Schilling, and Edgar Renteria controversy?

Here's a quick recap for anyone who doesn't know what this is about:

This offseason, the Cardinals stretched their budget and were prepared to overpay Renteria to keep him by offering him $39 million over 4 years. The Red Sox easily offered him $40 million. (I've never seen definates for these offers, but I do know they were know more than $5 mill apart, and I believe less than that.) Despite saying he loved St. Louis and wanted to stay if possible, Renteria jumped ship for Boston stating they showed him more respect.

Sure, we St. Louis fans were/are bitter. I mean, first off, the offers are really close to begin with. Second off, the Cards offer compared to their payroll is much better than the Sox offer compared to their payroll. The respect excuse sucks.

Regardless of how mad we were at Edgar, we could still look at it objectively. Few of us figured Edgar would do great immediatley or perhaps at all in Boston. He may be "Mr. Clutch" in baseball pressure situations, but he has never played well when there is outside pressure. For instance, in 2001 when there were trade rumors, he played horrible until Jocketty announced he would not be traded. Anyways, the fans in Boston are much less forgiving than in St. Louis, so we didn't expect Edgar to play that well with that pressure.

And to this point, Edgar hasn't played well under that pressure. So then, at an event to promote his new book, the topic of Renteria somehow got brought up. La Russa basically said Edgars struggling and it's possibly because of all the pressure he's facing in Boston. He basically just said Edgars shy and sensitive and so the environment in Boston isn't helping him.

For whatever reason, Curt Schilling felt the need to call a Boston radio station twice to complain about TLR's comments saying he backed Edgar into a corner and that he's not helping Edgar at all.

I cannot figure out how La Russa said anything wrong, but whatever. All La Russa said is what every Cardinals fan predicted a long time ago and is happening.

Here's a really good column on the whole thing by St. Louis Post-Dispatch columnist Bernie Miklasz.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/co...63?OpenDocument

This excerpt makes me sick. Especially the part in bold. There's no need to get in an argument about who has the best fans in baseball, but I think everyone knows St. Louis makes a lot of people's lists. For Edgar to play here for 6 years (I think) and be treated well and talk so good about his time here, and then to go over to Boston, do horrible and be booed and then claim they are the best fans in baseball kills me. I'm almost sorry I ever rooted for him.

The Red Sox open a three-game series at Busch Stadium on June 6, and but it probably won't be the anticipated homecoming for Renteria.

"I'm done with St. Louis already, and I play with Boston right now. It's my house right now, my family," Renteria told reporters who cover the Red Sox.

There's more.

"I know the fans in Boston are the best in baseball," Renteria told reporters Tuesday in Toronto. "When you perform the way you're supposed to, they're behind you. When I play the way I'm supposed to play, the Boston fans will be behind me."

(Doesn't that make them front-runners?)

As for La Russa's comments, Renteria said, "I don't know why Tony would say that. I wanted to play in Boston. They offered me the best contract and I knew I wanted to come to Boston. I think the fans are great there. I knew what a great place to play Boston is and I haven't changed my mind about that. I'm going to show Tony that I can play here."

The Cardinals-Red Sox series just became a lot more intriguing.

Thoughts?

Dear Og, has there ever been a better example of someone taking a quote utterly and completely out of context?

Real cute of you to just highlight the one line.

Tell me why you didn't highlight the next two lines from Renteria which were, "When you perform the way you're supposed to, they're behind you.When I play the way I'm supposed to play, the Boston fans will be behind me."??

You just highlighted the one line to make Renteria come off as a dick, and to create an utterly false and untrue impression. Says a lot about you St. Louis people being the best fans in baseball, namely that that idea is a bunch of crap, you guys are just as bad as everyone else.

[EagleFan344]

I hate Curt Schilling. He thinks he is god now.

[BBTV]

Every player outside of Philadelphia says their fans are the best in baseball. It's what they do. Not worth getting upset over.

[STL FANATIC]

Dear Og, has there ever been a better example of someone taking a quote utterly and completely out of context?

Real cute of you to just highlight the one line.

Tell me why you didn't highlight the next two lines from Renteria which were, "When you perform the way you're supposed to, they're behind you.When I play the way I'm supposed to play, the Boston fans will be behind me."??

You just highlighted the one line to make Renteria come off as a dick, and to create an utterly false and untrue impression. Says a lot about you St. Louis people being the best fans in baseball, namely that that idea is a bunch of crap, you guys are just as bad as everyone else.

I bolded that because that was the part that ticked me off. However, I still posted all of his quotes that pertained to that. That is NOT taking anything out of context. I put it right there for you to read...which apparently you did...so tell me again how I was hiding anything...\

Personally, I don't think what he said following the bolded part changes anything though. What he said basically just said Boston fans are like most fans. I'm sorry, like PCGD said, I'm not gonna deny how good Boston fans probably are, but St. Louis fans are with you no matter how much your struggling, and 99% of the time that's appreciated. So, to suddenly make those comments that it's better for fans to essentially treat players in a bandwagon style just kinda upsets me.

[jkrdevil]

When you play for a team it's almost required to say they have the best fans in that sport. It wasn't meant to slam St. Louis. I'm sure if he said that the Boston Fans sucked while he played in Boston he would get booed like no other player. That would make his working enviroment h*ll.

Ok, the Boston Fans are booing him for not performing. That doesn't mean they are bad fans. That's hust how life is in the North East. Same thing goes for New York and Philly. Life in general in the north east is more fast paced. In the South, mid-west and west it seems to be a bit more laid back slower pace. In the northeast people for the most part are in a rush to get everything done. Where in other parts of the country again it's more laid back How are you doing. Well, this spills into sports. A player is expected to get the job done and often times most of the fans want it done now and all the time. The teams job is to win and fans expect to win all the time. That does create pressure. But you know if you do perform you are put on a platform like no other. It's sort of the 2 extremes. Other parts of the country the fans give a little more time for a player, he won't get booed as much if he doesn't perform but he doesn't get put up to that level if he does.

As for Schilling he should shut up. And so should LaRussa, he is imo the most overratted manager in the manger leagues. He has gone to the World Series 4 times with the team with the best record in baseball. Out of that many times he only won the series once. The other series have been two, 4 game sweeps and one 5 game loss. At least be competitive.

[stimpy]

Personally, I don't think what he said following the bolded part changes anything though. What he said basically just said Boston fans are like most fans. I'm sorry, like PCGD said, I'm not gonna deny how good Boston fans probably are, but St. Louis fans are with you no matter how much your struggling, and 99% of the time that's appreciated. So, to suddenly make those comments that it's better for fans to essentially treat players in a bandwagon style just kinda upsets me.

You don't think Red Sox fans stay behind their players when they are struggling? 86 years of the whole team struggling, you think every city would stay behind their team for 86 years of losing? Nobody in Boston is not behind Rentiria now, sure he didn't do has well has we expected but nobody is not behind him. This isn't New York, he is a Red Sox now and real fans are behind him 100%. Look at Foulke, he has been doing wiked bad so far this year, atleast for him, did he get boo'd off the field like Rivera in New York? No and Foulke is doing worse and Rivera is supposed to be an idol in New York.

Sure there are alot of bandwagon fans now for Boston but they arn't even real fans. What made the Boston fans so great before the world series is that all the fans they had were real fans, that would stick by their team no matter what happened. Now they won and everybody tries to act like they always loved the Sox. I know I am getting a little off topic here eh?

Anyway, there are no bad feelings toward Rentiria now in Boston now. Has for Schilling, he's always been like that. He will say what he wants to say, and he wants to say alot. Most of you probably never noticed because he's never been in such a big market team in Boston.

[STL FANATIC]

When you play for a team it's almost required to say they have the best fans in that sport. It wasn't meant to slam St. Louis. I'm sure if he said that the Boston Fans sucked while he played in Boston he would get booed like no other player. That would make his working enviroment h*ll.

Ok, the Boston Fans are booing him for not performing. That doesn't mean they are bad fans. That's hust how life is in the North East. Same thing goes for New York and Philly. Life in general in the north east is more fast paced. In the South, mid-west and west it seems to be a bit more laid back slower pace. In the northeast people for the most part are in a rush to get everything done. Where in other parts of the country again it's more laid back How are you doing. Well, this spills into sports. A player is expected to get the job done and often times most of the fans want it done now and all the time. The teams job is to win and fans expect to win all the time. That does create pressure. But you know if you do perform you are put on a platform like no other. It's sort of the 2 extremes. Other parts of the country the fans give a little more time for a player, he won't get booed as much if he doesn't perform but he doesn't get put up to that level if he does.

As for Schilling he should shut up. And so should LaRussa, he is imo the most overratted manager in the manger leagues. He has gone to the World Series 4 times with the team with the best record in baseball. Out of that many times he only won the series once. The other series have been two, 4 game sweeps and one 5 game loss. At least be competitive.

Renteria didn't have to go out of his way to call them the best in baseball, which he did. Whatever.

Also, just a few weeks ago Steve Kline said something to the extent that he missed playing in St. Louis because of how great the fans were. And he was struggling and he got booed for those comments, but he apologized for his comments (though he didn't revoke them), settled down pitched well, and all was well again.

I also don't think the Red Sox fans are bad fans. But you made the point right there when you said they want the job done fast. That's a horrible environment for a player like Renteria. He doesn't perform well under that kind of pressure, and that's all La Russa was saying.

As for La Russa being the most overrated manager. Bah. I won't hold Joe Torre's years in St. Louis against him, because he wasn't given anything to work with here, but in New York, Torre is given EVERYTHING to work with. IMO, he might be the most overrated manager. He's given all the players he needs AND he's in the much easier to manage American League.

La Russa is one of the few managers to have so much success in both leagues. Also, I think you undervalue the significance of making the World Series in modern day baseball. Two modern day baseball innovations have actually kind of canceled eachother out. Way back when, winning the pennant meant something. The World Series was just extra gravy. The thing was though, to win the pennant all you had to do was have the best record, and then eventually win one playoffs series. Still, a pennant was considered a huge deal. Then, winning the pennant became WAY harder with the installation of the Wild Card. ANOTHER series had to be one just to make it to the World Series. The pennant should have become more meaningful...but that meaning got hidden when stupid interleague play started.

Anyways, the point is, go back to a lot of managers from a different time in baseball who are considered great because of their World Series victories, and in todays game they probably would struggle just to get to the World Series.

Also, it's hard to call the (soon to be) third place manager on the wins leaderboard overrated. And, he's second place overall in such a storied franchise as the Cardinals. That's quite good.

If La Russa is overrated, people must think he's God, but to tell you the truth, I see more La Russa detractors than supporters it seems.

[STL FANATIC]

For the record, I didn't mean to start a St. Louis fans vs. Boston fans thing. They've both got great fans, we don't need to debate who's are better.

I just have a problem with Edgar's comments.

1. That the Cardinals some how showed him disrespect by offering just a few million less than the Red Sox (and trust me, that money meant more the Cards than the Sox...just look at payrolls) and by sacrificing a major team need (Ace pitcher--now Mulder) by making him that offer.

2. That Boston fans are the best in baseball. I'm not gonna say he's wrong, and I'm not gonna disagree that most players will say that about their fans. Yet, at least wait till you experience something good in that city before you say it. All he's really experienced is baseball struggles and the fans (rightly or not) being on his case about it.

I'll tell you what, the St. Louis vs. Boston series upcoming sure will be fun. I wouldn't mind meeting again in the World Series too. I still don't know what happened last year...the Cards were much better than they showed.

[FiddySicks]

Ehhhh. Whatever, im starting to dislike Boston a lot lately, they win one championship and act like they have 27. Big deal the Cards lost Edgar i say. I like the Whirly Bird David Eckstein better anyway

[jkrdevil]

I'll agree Joe Torre is a little overrated. However if you look at his managerial career before he came to the Yankees he was giving young teams and for the most part he has been able to improve them. You bring up St. Louis 3 of his years in St. Louis he had a record of over .500. But of course a manager is only as goos as his players. When Torre has been givin the players for the most part he has won (4 World Series titles). When LaRussa he for the most part has not won. Not saying LaRussa is a bad manager he's not the Genius some people have called him.

And it is about winning the World Series, and it has been that way since at least the 30's. In the 50's the Dodgers won the NL close to every year but they were called the Bums because they couldn't win the World Series untill 1955. In 1960 the Yankees fired Casey Stengal because of the way he managed the World Series. It wasn't just gravy. THe AL and NL are nothing more than conferences. In Football do you think the Patriots are just satisfied with getting to the Super Bowl. So you think it's gravy to them. No. They play in the NFL to win the Super Bowl. The coaches are hired to win the championship, not conference championship. Same thing in baseall. The Championship is the World Series.

Also, I have heard from managers say the American League is harder to manage because there is more second guessing with the pitchers because you have to take them out when you think they are done. In the NL your lineup card dictates how you manage. And it's not that hard to look at your lineup card and see the pitcher will be coming up so you need to do a double switch. Managing in both leagues is about equal.

[STL FANATIC]

You make good points about the managers and about the Championships. I still believe making the championship can be a big deal though. Now, making the championship and coming up short everytime is not good...then there should be pressure to win it all, but making it is still a big deal.

As for the NL and AL just being conferences, yes, that's what they have become with interleague play and what not, but there used to be more seperation that that.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you quite a bit on AL and NL managing being just about equal.

I mean, what if you have a 0-0 game in the bottom of the seventh. Your pitcher has pitched great and his pitch count is only around 85. But now, he's coming up to bat with runners on first and third and one out. Now you've got a tough decision. Do you pinch hit for him to get the runs in? What if the pinch hitter hits a double play and then your bullpen comes up short? Do you let the pitcher bat on his own? Do you bunt with him to get the runner over to second? Do you bunt and try to pull off the squeeze?

That kind of strategy just doesn't happen in the AL, and it's a shame.