Spygate: The Prequel

[Hat Boy]

That's two titles right there...and somehow I doubt they start 0-5 in 2002 if they actually win Super Bowl XXXVI. Frontiere, Shaw, and Ziggy might have still let the team fall apart after 2001 with a win-but they might have won another title before that happened.

Didn't Warner injure (or re-injure) his thumb in the Super Bowl? Even if they win that game, Warner still would have had trouble throwing/gripping the ball in 2002.

[Hat Boy]

Now, if you factor in the possibility that the Pats had good knowledge of the Rams' game plan enough to know where recievers were gonna be on each route and where Marshall Faulk was going to be running to before the ball was even snapped, and you're looking at a legitimate gripe for anyone in the game, NOT just the Rams and their fans.

So, you think the Pats filmed the Rams final walkthrough and over the next 24 hours, they determined the routes of every reciever on every play? Plus, come game day, they were able to recognize every formation and play call before the snap so as to know where the ball was going?

Watching a teams final walkthrough is certainly an advantage, but you make it sound as easy as knowing what buttons someone pushed to call a play in a Madden video game.

[rams80]

That's two titles right there...and somehow I doubt they start 0-5 in 2002 if they actually win Super Bowl XXXVI. Frontiere, Shaw, and Ziggy might have still let the team fall apart after 2001 with a win-but they might have won another title before that happened.

Didn't Warner injure (or re-injure) his thumb in the Super Bowl? Even if they win that game, Warner still would have had trouble throwing/gripping the ball in 2002.

I think he busted up his hand after that, but even if he does go down Marc Bulger's on the roster.

[Andy]

That's two titles right there...and somehow I doubt they start 0-5 in 2002 if they actually win Super Bowl XXXVI. Frontiere, Shaw, and Ziggy might have still let the team fall apart after 2001 with a win-but they might have won another title before that happened.

Didn't Warner injure (or re-injure) his thumb in the Super Bowl? Even if they win that game, Warner still would have had trouble throwing/gripping the ball in 2002.

I think he busted up his hand after that, but even if he does go down Marc Bulger's on the roster.

And no other team in the NFC gets better and overtakes the Rams. None. Everything stays exactly the same as it was that year and the Rams have a DYNASTY on their hands!

[rams80]

Now, if you factor in the possibility that the Pats had good knowledge of the Rams' game plan enough to know where recievers were gonna be on each route and where Marshall Faulk was going to be running to before the ball was even snapped, and you're looking at a legitimate gripe for anyone in the game, NOT just the Rams and their fans.

So, you think the Pats filmed the Rams final walkthrough and over the next 24 hours, they determined the routes of every reciever on every play? Plus, come game day, they were able to recognize every formation and play call before the snap so as to know where the ball was going?

Watching a teams final walkthrough is certainly an advantage, but you make it sound as easy as knowing what buttons someone pushed to call a play in a Madden video game.

Well...if you have existing game tape to play with as well, it can reinforce knowledge of certain plays and defenses.

Anyway...doesn't New England pride itself on having players with great "football intelligence?" Such a quality should allow you to recognize formations after only watching it once or twice.

[rams80]

That's two titles right there...and somehow I doubt they start 0-5 in 2002 if they actually win Super Bowl XXXVI. Frontiere, Shaw, and Ziggy might have still let the team fall apart after 2001 with a win-but they might have won another title before that happened.

Didn't Warner injure (or re-injure) his thumb in the Super Bowl? Even if they win that game, Warner still would have had trouble throwing/gripping the ball in 2002.

I think he busted up his hand after that, but even if he does go down Marc Bulger's on the roster.

And no other team in the NFC gets better and overtakes the Rams. None. Everything stays exactly the same as it was that year and the Rams have a DYNASTY on their hands!

I said "might"...I'm not going to even attempt to put a firm peg on all the butterflies that would result from a Rams win in Super Bowl XXXVI.

[Andy]

Man, if Ben Roethlisberger hadn't had that motorcycle accident after Super Bowl XL, the Steelers MIGHT've won another title. They wouldn't have had that awful season the next year and missed the playoffs! Maybe Bill Cowher wouldn't have lost his passion for coaching and retired. We MIGHT be on the verge of a black and gold dynasty right now! If it wasn't for those damn motorcycles (and Patriots)!

Now do you see how ridiculous it sounds? Why even say anything at all? If we're talking about Spygate, let's try and keep the focus away from the Rams and on the Patriots.

[STL FANATIC]

Man, if Ben Roethlisberger hadn't had that motorcycle accident after Super Bowl XL, the Steelers MIGHT've won another title. They wouldn't have had that awful season the next year and missed the playoffs! Maybe Bill Cowher wouldn't have lost his passion for coaching and retired. We MIGHT be on the verge of a black and gold dynasty right now! If it wasn't for those damn motorcycles (and Patriots)!

Now do you see how ridiculous it sounds? Why even say anything at all? If we're talking about Spygate, let's try and keep the focus away from the Rams and on the Patriots.

What you said has nothing to do with what we said.

The Rams would be winning their 2nd Super Bowl in 3 years. If you recall, some were ready to call the Patriots at dynasty after just two Super Bowl's because "it's so hard to do with all the parody" now. So that second Super Bowl would have been real big right there.

Beyond that, there's no way the Rams lose all those games to start the 2002 season if they win the Super Bowl. And beyond that, The Rams still had a dang good team in 2003 when they lost in overtime (double overtime maybe? I was there, I should know) to the Panthers who lost (also on a late FG) to the Patriots in the Super Bowl that year.

The point? The Rams were legitimately close to a dynasty. The Steelers (speaking of their recent team of course) were not. And we're not talking about an injury derailing that chance. We're talking about a narrow Super Bowl loss that very well may have been the result of cheating by the Patriots.

Is it too much to say with any assurance that the Rams would have had a dynasty? Yeah. But it's not the least bit ridiculous to wonder and think that it was very possible.

I agree we should focus on the Patriots. But the Rams are relevant here and so are the points that have been made.

[rams80]

IIRC First play of the second overtime period.

Jason Sehorn fails at life.

That said, be a little less shrill about it. We'll see what happens next week.

[Andy]

Man, if Ben Roethlisberger hadn't had that motorcycle accident after Super Bowl XL, the Steelers MIGHT've won another title. They wouldn't have had that awful season the next year and missed the playoffs! Maybe Bill Cowher wouldn't have lost his passion for coaching and retired. We MIGHT be on the verge of a black and gold dynasty right now! If it wasn't for those damn motorcycles (and Patriots)!

Now do you see how ridiculous it sounds? Why even say anything at all? If we're talking about Spygate, let's try and keep the focus away from the Rams and on the Patriots.

What you said has nothing to do with what we said.

The Rams would be winning their 2nd Super Bowl in 3 years. If you recall, some were ready to call the Patriots at dynasty after just two Super Bowl's because "it's so hard to do with all the parody" now. So that second Super Bowl would have been real big right there.

Okay, I can't tell if you're making fun of me or not. Parody?

The Rams are NOT RELEVANT. What you are both presenting is CONJECTURE, which is the EXACT SAME THING I just did. If you want to argue about the effect the Patriots supposed cheating affected one particular football team, you have to argue about the effect on EVERY SINGLE NFL TEAM.

You've got to be kidding me. You both honestly believe that the effect of winning two straight Super Bowls would've made a difference on the Rams subsequent fall from grace? In the NFL, teams can win Super Bowls and then be at the bottom of the standings in two years. The term is "parity," and it's a result of: free agency, injuries, the draft, and the strength of other teams. If you think a second Super Bowl win would nullify all of those other factors, then you're beyond the help any argument I make can provide.

The only question Spygate poses to the Rams is this: Would the Rams have won that Super Bowl? Everything that happened in subsequent seasons has nothing to do with the Patriots, who, as you may know, play in the AFC.

[rams80]

You've got to be kidding me. You both honestly believe that the effect of winning two straight Super Bowls would've made a difference on the Rams subsequent fall from grace? In the NFL, teams can win Super Bowls and then be at the bottom of the standings in two years. The term is "parity," and it's a result of: free agency, injuries, the draft, and the strength of other teams. If you think a second Super Bowl win would nullify all of those other factors, then you're beyond the help any argument I make can provide.

One of the bigger factors in the fall from grace, as you put it, was the large amount of infighting that ravaged the upper levels of the franchise following, and as a result of, the loss. That factor, at least, would be gone.

Outside of that, a win might allow what football guys the Rams had to call the shots on personnel decisions as opposed to the beancounters ITTL.

I make no claims to be a psychologist, but IMO Martz's personality is one that doesn't respond well to criticism-his tendency if you criticize him is to stubbornly repeat what he had been doing-only to a slightly more extreme level. This in turn results in more criticism, etc. and this continues in a positive feedback loop until you reach the present where he is more an object of ridicule than a respected football mind.

Actually, in a lot of ways I think he's like Belichick. The arrogance is there, the dislike of criticism appears to be there, and the fairly brilliant football mind is there.

Tossing everything else out though...a second Super Bowl makes the GSOT Rams look a lot better in the long run. Or at least that's my opinion.

[gingerbreadmann]

I don't mean to intrude, but here are my thoughts.

I don't remember the Pats being a "dynasty" after the second SB, only after the third. I could be wrong though.

IIRC Marshall Faulk basically died after that year, or the year after(I can't remember exactly). I think he was a ginormous part of that GSOT offense and him nearing the end of his career, which he was anyway. I don't think they're nearly the same at all without him.

Of course things are different if they win. They are regarded as the best team of the 3 or so years before and after 2000. But after XXXVI, I think that they maybe had one, or maximum two good years left to contend. Do the Patriots still become the great team they were and are? Probably, possibly, we'll never know for sure. But I think this whole thread is full of jumping to conclusions when the truth is we'll never know/too big a deal is being made out of it(which I don't know, but as of now this is all about 1 media report).

[rams80]

I don't mean to intrude, but here are my thoughts.

I don't remember the Pats being a "dynasty" after the second SB, only after the third. I could be wrong though.

IIRC Marshall Faulk basically died after that year, or the year after(I can't remember exactly). I think he was a ginormous part of that GSOT offense and him nearing the end of his career, which he was anyway. I don't think they're nearly the same at all without him.

Of course things are different if they win. They are regarded as the best team of the 3 or so years before and after 2000. But after XXXVI, I think that they maybe had one, or maximum two good years left to contend. Do the Patriots still become the great team they were and are? Probably, possibly, we'll never know for sure. But I think this whole thread is full of jumping to conclusions when the truth is we'll never know/too big a deal is being made out of it(which I don't know, but as of now this is all about 1 media report).

A large part of the Faulk dying off, IMO, is a side effect of the "Mike Martz doesn't handle criticism well and goes one dimensional as a result" theory. The Rams did make attempts to have a replacement in the wings, but their talent evaluation, and Martz's drafting led them into the direction of Trung Candidate and Lamar Gordon before lucking into Jackson.

I do agree they have to do it in 2002 or 2003-after that, it is possible Frontiere's umm reluctance to spend money may force them to dismantle the team.

[chuckymack]

This is a fascinating thread. I really don't have anything to add, but here's hoping that you guys keep this debate going!

[kewp80]

NFL said (yesterday I think) that if Walsh talked that they would be able to protect him. Look for this to possibly heat up after the Pro Bowl as that's when Specter is scheduled to meet with Goodell. I'm just interested in wondering in what Walsh has to say. Does he have any hard evidence? Probably not.

[STL FANATIC]

NFL said (yesterday I think) that if Walsh talked that they would be able to protect him. Look for this to possibly heat up after the Pro Bowl as that's when Specter is scheduled to meet with Goodell. I'm just interested in wondering in what Walsh has to say. Does he have any hard evidence? Probably not.

His intentionally vague statements to ESPN implied that he very well may have concrete evidence. Whether that evidence is just random games or if he's the one who has the Super Bowl tape, who knows.

And since he was intentionally vague, maybe he doesn't have any at all. But it seemed to me he was being vague to protect himself rather than because he didn't actually have anything substantial.

It'll be interesting to follow.

[Luigi74]

I guess since all of the major networks and ESPN have large contracts with the NFL this story has been pretty much been swept under the rug, but the Belichick has been taping signals since 2000.

Since 2000

[kewp80]

Interesting. So pretty much all the achievements the Pats have done under Belichick could be in question.

I'm interested in what kind of deal Specter wants to give Walsh...

[Luigi74]

Interesting. So pretty much all the achievements the Pats have done under Belichick could be in question.

I'm interested in what kind of deal Specter wants to give Walsh...

I would think protection from being sued by the Patriots and/or the NFL for violation of any confidentiality agreements he signed.

[rams80]

Former Rams player sues Patriots for $100 million.

For those too lazy to click, it's a class action suit filed on behalf of the Rams players and employees at the time, those who bought tickets for Super Bowl XXXVI, and Rams 2001 and 2002 PSL holders.

The player in question, one Willie Gary, played for the Rams only during the 2001 season, did jack diddly in the 7 games he played (from what I can tell) and hasn't played with any other NFL team. Needless to say, any NFL gag order that may or may not exist isn't going to affect him, because I doubt he has much to lose.

Outside of that, the only significance of this is that Matt Walsh will most likely be subpoenaed for evidence. So, if there is any truth to his claims, we're going to find out about it.