If I were commish of...Football

[The_Admiral]

We need to protect the things we have that help define us as a unique nation on the North American continent.

Like third-down punts? Come on now.

[IceCap]

We need to protect the things we have that help define us as a unique nation on the North American continent.

Like third-down punts? Come on now.

Like I said, it's all relative. Different rules for football may be one little thing, but we've already lost a good amount of little things. I even admitted that our quirky version of football isn't that big of a deal on its own. It's about a bigger picture though.

EDIT-

Also consider this. The NFL isn't expanding any time soon, they have things just the way they like them in terms of alignment/number of teams. So if Toronto gets a team, and puts the CFL under, what happens to Canadian pro football outside of southern Ontario? Sure, Toronto will still have a team, and maybe you even write off Hamilton. What about Montréal, BC, Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Regina (Saskatchewan)?

All of those cities have their own pro football traditions and passionate fan bases. The NFL won't put teams in all of those locations. Toronto is as Canadian as the league is willing to go. The CFL won't be able to stick around without the Argos, so those teams are essentially doomed, and robbing those cities of pro football, which is in and of itself a shame.

[rams80]

We need to protect the things we have that help define us as a unique nation on the North American continent.

Like third-down punts? Come on now.

Or a political system that rewards the French?

[The_Admiral]

Hey now, you're talking about my people, if I have a people.

At the risk of taking this thread off the rails into a discussion of the merits of Canadian cultural protectionism (though deviating from "put a Super Bowl in the Boston burbs" is no large crime), I shed few tears for the losses of Canadian idiosyncrasies that weren't worth keeping. Yes, it's a crying shame that Phoenix has the NHL but Winnipeg doesn't, no, radio stations shouldn't be forced to play mediocre Canadian music just because it's Canadian.

[infrared41]

Or a political system that rewards the French?

Hey now, you're talking about my people, if I have a people.

Just surrender and move on.

[IceCap]

We need to protect the things we have that help define us as a unique nation on the North American continent.

Like third-down punts? Come on now.

Or a political system that rewards the French?

Well THAT part can be tweaked.

**DISCLAIMER**

This post does not advocate anti-Francophone....ism.

Rather, I believe that the in the interest of creating a more unified Canada, special provisions cannot be given to one ethnic group and/or province at the expense of others. Other then constantly trying to bribe the French Canadiens from leaving, the Parliamentary system kicks all kinds of ass.

Do YOUR politicians get to hurl insults at your leader? That one guy called Obama a lier and was chewed out by everyone for not respecting the President of the United States. Our PM goes through that every time Parliament meets.

Hey now, you're talking about my people, if I have a people.

At the risk of taking this thread off the rails into a discussion of the merits of Canadian cultural protectionism (though deviating from "put a Super Bowl in the Boston burbs" is no large crime), I shed few tears for the losses of Canadian idiosyncrasies that weren't worth keeping. Yes, it's a crying shame that Phoenix has the NHL but Winnipeg doesn't, no, radio stations shouldn't be forced to play mediocre Canadian music just because it's Canadian.

I had to listen to Chinese Democracy for a good month and a half because the radio crews here in London ON thought IT WAS THE GREATEST ALBUM EVAR!

I'm not aware of any stations REQUIRED to play Canadian music just because it's Canadian.

In the interests of tying this back to football, the Grey Cup is, on average, the single most watched annual sporting event in Canada. So there's something there besides simple cultural protectionism. We like the CFL.

As for cultural protectionism in general, yeah, the dominant society in these situations usually doesn't see what all the fuss is about

[DEAD!]

I had to listen to Chinese Democracy for a good month and a half because the radio crews here in London ON thought IT WAS THE GREATEST ALBUM EVAR!

I'm not aware of any stations REQUIRED to play Canadian music just because it's Canadian.

In the interests of tying this back to football, the Grey Cup is, on average, the single most watched annual sporting event in Canada. So there's something there besides simple cultural protectionism. We like the CFL.

As for cultural protectionism in general, yeah, the dominant society in these situations usually doesn't see what all the fuss is about

That's actually true. Regulations require stations to play a minimum amount of Canadian content (about 35% I believe). In order for it to be considered Canadian content, it has to meet at least two of the four criteria, known as MAPL, Music, Artist, Production, Lyrics.

One problem about the Bills in Toronto series is, well, they are the BUFFALO Bills, not the Toronto (insert name here). There are plenty of NFL fans, but they are of all sorts of teams, the Cowboys, Steelers, etc.

A potential Toronto team would have to build a new stadium, but who is going to pay for it and where would they put it? Maybe someday, a NFL team would end up in Toronto, but not until the Buffalo situation is clarified after Ralph Wilson's death and until a plan for a new stadium is in place. The Argos, will stay the Rogers Centre for the foreseeable future, and I do think the Argos can survive even with an NFL team in the market. I see it as competition, but I think this would create an opportunity for a businessman/men to be more creative and find a niche for the Argos that would attract fans. Also, there are football fans in general who enjoy both games, I don't see why it should be either/or.

We need to protect the things we have that help define us as a unique nation on the North American continent.

Like third-down punts? Come on now.

Or a political system that rewards the French?

... or the Mexicans?

[IceCap]

I had to listen to Chinese Democracy for a good month and a half because the radio crews here in London ON thought IT WAS THE GREATEST ALBUM EVAR!

I'm not aware of any stations REQUIRED to play Canadian music just because it's Canadian.

In the interests of tying this back to football, the Grey Cup is, on average, the single most watched annual sporting event in Canada. So there's something there besides simple cultural protectionism. We like the CFL.

As for cultural protectionism in general, yeah, the dominant society in these situations usually doesn't see what all the fuss is about

That's actually true. Regulations require stations to play a minimum amount of Canadian content (about 35% I believe). In order for it to be considered Canadian content, it has to meet at least two of the four criteria, known as MAPL, Music, Artist, Production, Lyrics.

Really. Interesting. Eh, there are enough decent Canadian rock bands so that the stations I listen to don't suffer. And when they do it's mostly because they feel the need to knob U2 or Guns N' Roses.

One problem about the Bills in Toronto series is, well, they are the BUFFALO Bills, not the Toronto (insert name here). There are plenty of NFL fans, but they are of all sorts of teams, the Cowboys, Steelers, etc.

Toronto Bills would sound awful. I've said it before, the name a NFL team in Toronto should have is Red Coats. It would make the situation slightly more tolerable. First because it would at the very least pay lip service to the region's history, and secondly because the Patriots/Red Coats games would be awesome.

Unfortunately they would pick something stupid like Northmen or Hogs, or just keep the Bills nickname.

A potential Toronto team would have to build a new stadium, but who is going to pay for it and where would they put it? Maybe someday, a NFL team would end up in Toronto, but not until the Buffalo situation is clarified after Ralph Wilson's death and until a plan for a new stadium is in place.

Pretty much my point regarding the stadium. The city wants no part in a new stadium, so it would need to be privately financed. For all the press the MLSE/Rogers partnership to bring the NFL to Toronto got, it seems like all the initial zeal is gone, partially due to the fact that the Bills came, and it wasn't the big deal everyone thought it would be.

Plus, the location's kind of lacking. Toronto's a crowded city, every piece of land that can be developed has been or is the processes of being developed. Land isn't cheap, nor is it plentiful. Sure, the city's expanding at a blob like pace, absorbing everything in its path, and sticking a stadium out in the "suburbs" might be feasible, financially speaking. The problem there is that it's to far away from the potential fanbase. The same fanbase that couldn't fill the 54,000 seat downtown Rogers Centre. 65,000 (the NFL minimum for new stadiums) seats aren't going to be filled, especially if a drive is involved.

The Argos, will stay the Rogers Centre for the foreseeable future, and I do think the Argos can survive even with an NFL team in the market. I see it as competition, but I think this would create an opportunity for a businessman/men to be more creative and find a niche for the Argos that would attract fans. Also, there are football fans in general who enjoy both games, I don't see why it should be either/or.

Well here's the thing. If the NFL came to Toronto, chances are the team would use the Rogers Centre as a temporary home until a new stadium could be built. During that period the NFL team would bump the Argos down to second class status on the tenant hierarchy for the period that the two league's seasons intersect.

Then there's the media and fan aspect. Yes, some people do appreciate both leagues for what they are, I'm one of them. Most people aren't so discerning though. They just want pro football. If there's an NFL team in Toronto that means that'll be the team the fans who want pro football follow. That will be the team the local (and by extension the national) media focuses on.

There's a thread about the most irrelevant team in sports. If the NFL sets up shop in Toronto the Argos will easily take that title. It doesn't have to either/or, but I'm afraid that's what it will come down to. It would be great if that didn't happen, then there wouldn't be a problem. I just don't see how any professional football league can successfully co-exist with the NFL in the same city in this day and age.

[The_Admiral]

I had to listen to Chinese Democracy for a good month and a half because the radio crews here in London ON thought IT WAS THE GREATEST ALBUM EVAR!

I'm not aware of any stations REQUIRED to play Canadian music just because it's Canadian.

In the interests of tying this back to football, the Grey Cup is, on average, the single most watched annual sporting event in Canada. So there's something there besides simple cultural protectionism. We like the CFL.

As for cultural protectionism in general, yeah, the dominant society in these situations usually doesn't see what all the fuss is about

That's actually true. Regulations require stations to play a minimum amount of Canadian content (about 35% I believe). In order for it to be considered Canadian content, it has to meet at least two of the four criteria, known as MAPL, Music, Artist, Production, Lyrics.

Really. Interesting. Eh, there are enough decent Canadian rock bands so that the stations I listen to don't suffer. And when they do it's mostly because they feel the need to knob U2 or Guns N' Roses.

Endless U2/GNR hype? Icecap79 apparently lives in 19eighty9. But no seriously, the CRTC (that's your FCC!) says stations need to play Canadian content or risk fines/forfeiture of license. I mean, it certainly doesn't hurt to play lots of tracks off Rust Never Sleeps, Moving Pictures, and Funeral, but when it's a condition of your right to broadcast, that's the kind of stuff that elicits gentle loving fun-poking.

[Brian in Boston]

Of course such a stadium could be built... the NFL in Toronto doesn't seem as sure a thing as it once did.

The Bills Toronto Series games haven't done gangbuster attendance numbers because, despite the fact that they are regular-season NFL contests, the team in question still belongs to another market and the fans in Toronto realize that. Give the city an NFL franchise of its own on a full-time basis and I'd wager that attendance would grow.

As for the interest of the Tanenbaum/Rogers partnership to pursue acquiring an NFL team, Larry Tanenbaum said that he'd be ready to move forward whenever the NFL was ready to do so. There's no reason to believe that the lack of activity since then is indicative of Tanenbaum no longer being interested. Rather, it simply means that he recognizes that until the league is ready to move forward it serves no purpose to pester them with unilateral pronouncements on his part. Despite Ted Rogers' death, Phil Lind - a supporter of Mr. Rogers' NFL aspirations - remains the vice-chairman of Rogers Communications. Further, Paul Godfrey, an associate of both Ted Rogers and Larry Tanenbaum remains bullish on the idea of bringing the NFL to Toronto.

That despite ridiculing me for holding an opinion contrary to your own in the Coyotes thread, YOU took it upon yourself to post-bomb me about the Buffalo Bills possibly moving to Toronto?

I wasn't "ridiculing" you and it wasn't my intention to "post-bomb" you? Stop blowing things out of proportion. I've used the phrase "bottom line" in countless posts, within countless threads in this community. I was simply summing-up my points. There was no more to it than that.

Despite what happened in that Coyotes thread I've had enough sense to stay clear of you, because for whatever reason the opinions of Icecap79 annoy Brian in Boston, and I have no interest in maintaining an internet pissing contest.

Again, you're reading far too much into my posts. Your opinions don't annoy me. I've just happened to hold a couple of opinions on a pair of subjects that run counter to your own. No big deal. You're free to express your opinions, I'm free to express mine and, if we both prove ourselves capable of it, we can engage in a reasoned, mature and civil debate on any number of topics including the two that you've cited. However, if you choose to assume that my challenging your arguments point by point constitutes a "pissing contest", rather than the simple attempt to engage in the aforementioned debate, that speaks to your frame of mind.

If you want to take time out of your day to harass me every time I make a post that conflicts with your world view, that's your own prerogative.

Harass you every time you make a post that conflicts with my world view? You are clearly the individual who thinks that their opinion is somehow above being questioned and your panties are in a bunch because someone deigned to question your "world view".

I'll be happy to discuss the matter at hand, provided you can do so without calling unreasonable for not automatically abandoning my own position and embracing yours.

Nobody's called for you to abandon your position. Rather, you've simply been challenged to consider the opinions of others. Nothing more, nothing less.

[IceCap]

The Bills Toronto Series games haven't done gangbuster attendance numbers because, despite the fact that they are regular-season NFL contests, the team in question still belongs to another market and the fans in Toronto realize that. Give the city an NFL franchise of its own on a full-time basis and I'd wager that attendance would grow.

The Packers always drew well in Madison and Milwaukee, and the Saints drew well in San Antonio. Usually cities that get opportunities like Toronto is getting even turn up the NFL frenzy a few levels hoping to convince the league that the city is indeed worthy of a franchise. Considering how long Toronto NFL fans have gone on and on about how much the city needs that league, I expected huge turnouts. It hasn't happened. I'm not sure why, as the lukewarm reaction actually does have me puzzled. Pleasantly surprised, but puzzled. Maybe we as a nation just aren't that into football.

You may be right, maybe fans in Toronto just don't want to support a team that isn't theirs. I'm just saying that based on evidence from past "alternate home site" NFL games, that may not be the case.

As for the interest of the Tanenbaum/Rogers partnership to pursue acquiring an NFL team, Larry Tanenbaum said that he'd be ready to move forward whenever the NFL was ready to do so. There's no reason to believe that the lack of activity since then is indicative of Tanenbaum no longer being interested. Rather, it simply means that he recognizes that until the league is ready to move forward it serves no purpose to pester them with unilateral pronouncements on his part. Despite Ted Rogers' death, Phil Lind - a supporter of Mr. Rogers' NFL aspirations - remains the vice-chairman of Rogers Communications. Further, Paul Godfrey, an associate of both Ted Rogers and Larry Tanenbaum remains bullish on the idea of bringing the NFL to Toronto.

The interest is there, but really it's the same song and dance that's been going on for thirty years. Some group of rich locals wants the NFL to move, they court a few teams, then it just fizzles. They could very well be waiting for the NFL to give them the word, but given lacklustre support for the Bills thus far and the lack of a new arena, and the NFL may not want to give the word. The league, being the most successful North American sports league, has the enviable position of being able to walk away from opportunities like this. They don't need Toronto, so if things aren't to their liking they can just say "see ya" and never give it a second thought.

Like every other non-NFL city they've played, I think they expected Toronto to fall in love with the league at first site, and that hasn't happened. Sure, they may get a new stadium. Sure fan support may increase once the team is properly Toronto's. Do they need to go out on those limbs though?

I'm just saying that from the NFL's perspective a market blessed with the privilege of one or two NFL games a season barley outdrawing the Jacksonville Jaguars may not seem that promising of a market.

That despite ridiculing me for holding an opinion contrary to your own in the Coyotes thread, YOU took it upon yourself to post-bomb me about the Buffalo Bills possibly moving to Toronto?

I wasn't "ridiculing" you and it wasn't my intention to "post-bomb" you? Stop blowing things out of proportion. I've used the phrase "bottom line" in countless posts, within countless threads in this community. I was simply summing-up my points. There was no more to it than that.

Yeah, I pulled "post-bomb" out of thin air. It just seemed appropriate, I don't know.

I know you meant nothing by the bottom line remark. quoting it just seemed like a nice segway into my defencive rant.

Despite what happened in that Coyotes thread I've had enough sense to stay clear of you, because for whatever reason the opinions of Icecap79 annoy Brian in Boston, and I have no interest in maintaining an internet pissing contest.

Again, you're reading far too much into my posts. Your opinions don't annoy me. I've just happened to hold a couple of opinions on a pair of subjects that run counter to your own. No big deal. You're free to express your opinions, I'm free to express mine and, if we both prove ourselves capable of it, we can engage in a reasoned, mature and civil debate on any number of topics including the two that you've cited. However, if you choose to assume that my challenging your arguments point by point constitutes a "pissing contest", rather than the simple attempt to engage in the aforementioned debate, that speaks to your frame of mind.

Like I said, I was defencive. More so then I probably needed to be. Our last back and forth was less then constructive, so I had a "not again" reaction when I saw you discussing a post I made earlier point by point. If you felt I was being to defencive (I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you) I apologize.

If you want to take time out of your day to harass me every time I make a post that conflicts with your world view, that's your own prerogative.

Harass you every time you make a post that conflicts with my world view? You are clearly the individual who thinks that their opinion is somehow above being questioned and your panties are in a bunch because someone deigned to question your "world view".

I don't really care if someone I've never met face to face disagrees with me. My problem is when people try to simplify, vilify, and outright dismiss my argument in a discussion. Which is what I feared this may turn into.

I'll be happy to discuss the matter at hand, provided you can do so without calling unreasonable for not automatically abandoning my own position and embracing yours.

Nobody's called for you to abandon your position. Rather, you've simply been challenged to consider the opinions of others. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cool. Alright then. I'm burying the hatchet.

Sorry if all the above came off weird, it's late, and I'm finishing a paper I would rather have done before I drive home in a few hours to kick of the family "What Winter Themed Holiday Are We Celebrating This Year?" tradition.

Happy holidays.

Anyway yeah, you're right. I was honestly unaware of those CRTC requirements. It does indeed lend itself pocking fun.

[IceCap]

I had to listen to Chinese Democracy for a good month and a half because the radio crews here in London ON thought IT WAS THE GREATEST ALBUM EVAR!

I'm not aware of any stations REQUIRED to play Canadian music just because it's Canadian.

In the interests of tying this back to football, the Grey Cup is, on average, the single most watched annual sporting event in Canada. So there's something there besides simple cultural protectionism. We like the CFL.

As for cultural protectionism in general, yeah, the dominant society in these situations usually doesn't see what all the fuss is about

That's actually true. Regulations require stations to play a minimum amount of Canadian content (about 35% I believe). In order for it to be considered Canadian content, it has to meet at least two of the four criteria, known as MAPL, Music, Artist, Production, Lyrics.

Really. Interesting. Eh, there are enough decent Canadian rock bands so that the stations I listen to don't suffer. And when they do it's mostly because they feel the need to knob U2 or Guns N' Roses.

Endless U2/GNR hype? Icecap79 apparently lives in 19eighty9. But no seriously, the CRTC (that's your FCC!) says stations need to play Canadian content or risk fines/forfeiture of license. I mean, it certainly doesn't hurt to play lots of tracks off Rust Never Sleeps, Moving Pictures, and Funeral, but when it's a condition of your right to broadcast, that's the kind of stuff that elicits gentle loving fun-poking.

This one guy on 96 FM in London LOVES U2, and you would swear Chinese Democracy was the greatest album ever made in the history of awesomeness if you heard them prattle on about how "once you acquire a taste for the sound it's amazing." People wonder I why I sometimes prefer theatrical scores <.< >.>

I was unaware of that CRTC regulation. You're right though, it does lead to some poking fun.

[Brian in Boston]

Cool. Alright then. I'm burying the hatchet.

Happy holidays.

Right back at you. Safe travels and Happy Holidays!