Group Effort To Discourage High Schools From Using Trademarked Logos?

[Sykotyk]

3 hours ago, Gothamite said:

Well, that last bit is just silly. 

 

You have repeatedly opined about the source of opinions of those with whom you have an intellectual disagreement.  Which is very poor form. 

 

Can an we please leave the amateur physiology to talk radio charlatans, and focus on the substance of the arguments themselves?  

 

 

Motivation behind wanting to do something can be used as a basis for whether you would be okay with someone doing it. If a 31-year-old man wanted to take your 17-year-old daughter to her senior prom, you'd probably say ABSOLUTELY NOT. But, if it were LeBron James doing it as a good-will gesture because your daughter's boyfriend dumped her the week before and her instagram posts about it went viral. The situation is entirely above-the-board and innocent. You'd probably shake his hand and ask for autographs and pictures with him.

 

See how there's a difference?

[Gothamite]

The motivations of schools and teams who use these logos is fine. But that's not what I said.  

 

I asked you to stop commenting on the motivations of your fellow posters here, because it's rude and counter-productive.  

[Sykotyk]

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

The motivations of schools and teams who use these logos is fine. But that's not what I said.  

 

I asked you to stop commenting on the motivations of your fellow posters here, because it's rude and counter-productive.  

 

This doesn't exist in a vacuum. Knowing why someone said what they said and their motivations is just as important as what they said.

[Gothamite]

You don't "know" where another person's opinions come from.  And it's disrespectful to presume that you do.

 

You owe your fellow posters the courtesy of presuming their opinions are reasoned and in good faith.  Armchair psychology is dismissive and therefore rude.  Worse yet, it's unproductive to the conversation because it can neither be confirmed nor rebutted.

[Sykotyk]

5 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

You don't "know" where another person's opinions come from.  And it's disrespectful to presume that you do.

 

You owe your fellow posters the courtesy of presuming their opinions are reasoned and in good faith.  Armchair psychology is dismissive and therefore rude.  Worse yet, it's unproductive to the conversation because it can neither be confirmed nor rebutted.

 

I haven't presumed. I've asked. And so far haven't been answered what his motivation is.

 

If someone says "I think an MLB team should wear pink and dark purple" that may be an opinion, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask WHY the user wanted those colors. Even if just to say "I like them".

 

No difference here. I've asked repeatedly if the OP thought forming a posse of high school logo thief catchers was somehow going to benefit him or the graphic design industry as a whole. And have so far been met with silence on that front.

 

My contention is that in the absence of using professional or collegiate marks, the logos and insignias these schools would use would not increase the number of jobs or opportunities among professional artists. They use the logos for the same reason someone streams a movie or downloads an MP3. It's free to them. That's the cost they're willing to pay. The fact OP is unhappy with that cost doesn't mean that suddenly removing the free option is going to open up wallets.

 

They'll find other logos that are free. And are going to be horrible as well.

[Gothamite]

When you post things like this about the motivations of people on this thread:

   

19 hours ago, Sykotyk said:

I personally think it's powerless people wanting to experience the feeling of power.

    

then I personally think a line has been crossed.  It's not that hard to be respectful of your fellow posters.

[Sykotyk]

Just now, Gothamite said:

When you post things like this about the motivations of people on this thread:

   

    

then I personally think a line has been crossed.  It's not that hard to be respectful of your fellow posters.

In the absence of evidence, yes. That's my opinion. I've been waiting for the OP to give his reasoning.

[Gothamite]

obviously can't speak for him, but not sure how seriously I would take questions from a guy who insults me. 

 

That's what I mean about being "counter-productive". You stop speculating about his psychological drives, and you might foster a better conversation. 

[DjRay1985]

I have had this question a lot on my mind and I have found this a question of moral and what is right. So I have been going through my state to see how many schools violate these policies. I have found across many boards that a lot of folks seem to think its all about selling items etc, etc however it is way bigger than that. This is how I know. I recently contacted a University in Maryland (not university of Maryland btw) that I will not name about a local high school I will not name. I asked them some of the same questions found on this board and I will provide a copy of the exact reply without names. I think this is a perfect example of how some schools deal with these issues.

 

Quote

Mr (My Name)—

 

Thank you for your inquiry. It is an interesting issue, and one that I (as the university’s licensing coordinator) grapple with all the time. It seems like every university handles this a little differently. Some schools simply turn a blind eye to it, and some schools even license their mark to others for their use. We take the opposite view and do not allow anyone to use our tiger logo. We do this for a few reasons:

 

First, there is a legal perspective that if we do not pursue unauthorized use, it creates a precedent. It would make it much easier in the future for someone to fight us if we tried to stop them from using it. 

 

Second, one of our previous athletic directors advised me that based on NCAA regulations, we must treat every high school the same: whatever we allow for one, we must allow for all. This came up when we were asked by a school in Arizona to use our logo. There was zero audience overlap, but if we allowed them to use it, we would have to allow a school in our backyard to use the logo, too. 

 

Finally, on the most basic level, the mark is (THEIR UNIVERSITY NAME) University property. I am with you — someone using something that is not theirs is stealing, and I have a personal problem with that. But also, from an image protection standpoint, if the logo slips out of our control, a school using it could do as they wish to the mark, and that could reflect poorly on (THEIR UNIVERSITY). I grant you that is a long stretch, but it is an additional consideration.

 

All of this brings us to the conclusion that, despite the hassle that it creates, we do not allow others to use the tiger logo, and when we find it being used, we reach out to stop it. That goes for anyone — it is mostly high schools, but I do the same for private business and youth sports, too. I don’t know if it is a ‘moral duty’ for people to report unauthorized use to us, but in my position, when I find unauthorized use, I am obligated to contact our licensing partner and have their attorneys send a cease and desist letter. We try to be as gentle as possible, but firm that they have to stop using the logo. If the logo is in use in many places, we have worked with schools to create a phase-out plan, but in line with what you are saying about resale, I always insist that any sales are immediately stopped. 

 

Thank you for reaching out! I certainly applaud your efforts keep high schools and youth sports teams on the up-and-up. If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know. 

 

—(THE GUY WHO WROTE ME)

 

Simply put, all you have to do is email them and they will indeed answer if you have any questions. Licensing is big big business. I will link a couple of websites below that give everyone here an idea of how serious these issues are as these schools pay, key word pay outside companies to represent them for protection purposes. 

 

Fermata is honored to have the opportunity to represent the trademark licensing rights for The University of Georgia, the University of Kentucky, the University of Miami, the University of Notre Dame, the University of Oregon and the University of Wisconsin.

http://fermatacollege.com/universities/

 

The Collegiate Licensing Company below is also another place that represent the trademark licensing rights for a boat load of schools and provides a ton of information on each school and their rights. If you have questions EMAIL them or the school directly as I did. I say in all caps, because this is the age of information and the folks will not bite us. They are never too big to take questions about their licensing. It's good business. Many of us here create logos, and if my logo was used without permission, I would want to know about it.

https://www.clc.com/

 

I learned a lot about how business is conducted in the area of NCAA rules on using their logos. As far as pro teams, if I find a violation I will email them. I will also post it here if it helps.

 

BTW the NY Giants have given a local semi-pro team in Baltimore, MD a desist letter. I know because I was approached by a player to redo their logo and he explained the issue in detail. They were NOT selling anything. The NY Giants issue had to do with the semi-pro team putting the NY Giants ALT logo on their jersey below the collar line. Some Giants' fan must have found out and reported them; who knows. This was the 3rd team in that league that was given a desist letter by two other NFL teams. Yes NFL teams. None of the players get paid to my knowledge. Maybe they did it because it was a semi-pro team. I ask with that being said, how far will they go? Maybe the pro teams have changed their about this all. I know how many NCAA teams handle this, and i'm sure Pro teams take a similar stand. So as far as pro teams, I would not go by what others may say, I say go find out and EMAIL them LOL.

[hockey week]

It came up once, but it seemed to get lost really quickly. The biggest reason why schools rarely use custom logos is because custom logos are really expensive.

 

And I don't mean to design, that's a whole other issue, I mean to get a manufacturer to stitch onto uniforms. When you deal with teachers and coaches (and this is speaking as a teacher), so many people don't understand, don't notice, or don't care about things like resolution, aspect ratios, or perfecting colors - terrible things happen to logos and then someone at the manufacturer has to redraw the logo as a vector image, and that takes more time and costs more money.

 

When they have that image in the catalog and they have a stock image drawn already, and you can tell them "a blue and gold version of the Eagles logo with AC on top of it", that's way easier than trying to upload custom logos and such. If an advocacy group would like to create many many more stock logos that teams can use, that would be great. But considering how many times I see the same generic "raiders" or "buccaneers" logos from team to team, I don't feel this is any better, in my own personal opinion.

[C-Squared]

10 minutes ago, hockey week said:

It came up once, but it seemed to get lost really quickly. The biggest reason why schools rarely use custom logos is because custom logos are really expensive.

 

And I don't mean to design, that's a whole other issue, I mean to get a manufacturer to stitch onto uniforms. When you deal with teachers and coaches (and this is speaking as a teacher), so many people don't understand, don't notice, or don't care about things like resolution, aspect ratios, or perfecting colors - terrible things happen to logos and then someone at the manufacturer has to redraw the logo as a vector image, and that takes more time and costs more money.

 

When they have that image in the catalog and they have a stock image drawn already, and you can tell them "a blue and gold version of the Eagles logo with AC on top of it", that's way easier than trying to upload custom logos and such. If an advocacy group would like to create many many more stock logos that teams can use, that would be great. But considering how many times I see the same generic "raiders" or "buccaneers" logos from team to team, I don't feel this is any better, in my own personal opinion.

 

This post raises an interesting point - manufacturers share the blame. They know Backwoods High doesn't own the rights to the Broncos logo, but they break the law and produce merchandise and gear with copyrighted logos anyway. The NFL attacking broke schools over intellectual property violations would be a PR nightmare. Coming after these private, for-profit manufacturing companies who know better might be a better angle.

[DjRay1985]

1 hour ago, C-Squared said:

 

This post raises an interesting point - manufacturers share the blame. They know Backwoods High doesn't own the rights to the Broncos logo, but they break the law and produce merchandise and gear with copyrighted logos anyway. The NFL attacking broke schools over intellectual property violations would be a PR nightmare. Coming after these private, for-profit manufacturing companies who know better might be a better angle.

 

I agree, in this image I attached you see the Notre Dame logo, but its in red. I ask who produced this for the school, and how did this school get their hands on this. As a manufacturer, I would leave these things alone to avoid any issue being involved with this all. I know overseas, its hard to control, but in the US im sure they can go after them. Anyways, This is a school located close to me and it is amazing how much of the ND logo they have on their items, and yes they do sell and make a profit with that logo on their merchandise. There is a school store website and all. I see these Decals all over the area in Blue in red colors. I again ask, who produces these for them?

 

2 hours ago, hockey week said:

It came up once, but it seemed to get lost really quickly. The biggest reason why schools rarely use custom logos is because custom logos are really expensive.

 

And I don't mean to design, that's a whole other issue, I mean to get a manufacturer to stitch onto uniforms. When you deal with teachers and coaches (and this is speaking as a teacher), so many people don't understand, don't notice, or don't care about things like resolution, aspect ratios, or perfecting colors - terrible things happen to logos and then someone at the manufacturer has to redraw the logo as a vector image, and that takes more time and costs more money.

 

When they have that image in the catalog and they have a stock image drawn already, and you can tell them "a blue and gold version of the Eagles logo with AC on top of it", that's way easier than trying to upload custom logos and such. If an advocacy group would like to create many many more stock logos that teams can use, that would be great. But considering how many times I see the same generic "raiders" or "buccaneers" logos from team to team, I don't feel this is any better, in my own personal opinion.

 

I agree with the graphic design aspect resolution, aspect ratios, or perfecting colors etc. You are 100% correct man do not understand. However I have worked with people who I have done logos for, and I have given them large, large versions of each logo in color, black and white, in a PNG and TIFF format. I have also given them all the RGB color numbers, and the color hex codes. I have given them the fonts, and again mega high resolution files straight from illustrator. For me its crazy that they the manufacturer won't take the time to properly consult with the designer or design team to get proper logistical aspects taken care of. 

 

Also from a price standpoint. From the email I received from the licensing coordinator, he said they will send a cease and desist letter and a phase out plan. I think depending on how much of the logo they used, that phase out plan could be extremely costly. In terms of the images I posted below, I know it would cost that school a TON of money. I say why not get past the cost standpoint in the beginning, get it right from the start and avoid legal issues in the future.

 

I want to report this school, but to imagine the cost this school will go through will be heavy. As a designer, I HATE logo thieves, even those that may not know. Its 2016/2017 its time to get in the know. The cheerleader uniforms have the same logo. Its on the football field, in the gym, its everywhere. This is a newly built school with all grade levels on one giant campus in separate sections.

[GeauxColonels]

1 hour ago, DjRay1985 said:

 

A lot of thievery in this pic between North Desoto and Benton.

[mark_lavis]

I'm glad this topic was resurrected after I had to step away back in May given how the thread was starting to shift from my original topic of discussion.

 

As someone who'd still consider myself a novice at the design business since it's by no means my main source of income, I can remark on the importance of having quality image behind the scenes with regards to the longevity of a logo. Running my own logo database, just like Chris does on this website, I know the horrors of bitmapped logos firsthand. I understand not every high school in the country as Adobe Illustrator installed their office but I assume any legitimate manufacturer should.

 

Before the holidays, I had to trace over multiple pro/college logos in Illustrator in order to create gifts I was going to give my relatives for Christmas. It honestly isn't that difficult to do. I would hope this isn't the reason schools shift from using an original/public domain stock logo to a trademarked logo. Having designed the new logo for my mother's elementary school, I can attest as to how...let's say naive those who by no means are proficient in design believe that you can slap any old logo on anything without any sort quality deterioration. I understand how not every school can have the same direct communication with the designer but, given that, I believe it's for both designers and manufacturers to educate their clients in order for them to feel at-ease and get out the most from their property. 

 

I feel like the last two paragraphs might have been a slight detour but I digress...

 

A major issue moral issue regarding the discouragement of using trademarked logos without permission stems from who, when an instance is discovered, do you contact first: the infringing high school or the team who is having their logo infringed upon?

 

From a high school point-of-view, it seems like the proper path. It's like a parent catching their kid in the act of stealing a candy bar and teaching them why they shouldn't do that instead of sending the kid straight to jail to teach them a lesson. If I've learned anything over the past 6-12 months (oh have I learned) it's that not everyone sees the world in the same way we do. Outside of the basic stuff that gets covered on Law and Order, law is a complicated web to navigate sometimes. For those who don't have to take into account copyright/trademark law on a daily basis, some stuff we see as "well duhhhhh" simply don't register with some people. Considering the precedent certain leagues (*cough* NFL *cough*) have set over the past few decades, it makes sense why many booster clubs and such equate the opinions of the largest sports league in the US to every professional sporting operation. To many, the Philadelphia Eagles and Southern Miss Golden Eagles are one in the same regarding personal logo usage. Thus, it's better to educate schools why you shouldn't play with fire instead of burning them with fire to get the point across.

 

From a team point-of-view, these organizations know what to do once notified and will take action promptly and accordingly. If you really want Podunk High School to change their logo, it's a lot more efficient to send a team with annual revenue in the millions after them instead of Joe Schmo sending them an email warning about the team potentially going after them in the future. School districts across the country have a lot more pressing matters on their agenda than the legality of one of their school's athletic trademarks so an email from a regular old citizen might be simply thrown in the trash. However, it'd be a bit more difficult to ignore the matter if you have the University of Texas breathing down their neck to resolve the matter. But, like DJ highlighted, it costs money to transition from a law-breaking to a law-abiding logo once it's placed on everything from team uniforms to school equipment. Not every school might be as lenient as Towson (we all know you emailed Towson) and demand to have that transition take place sooner rather than later. This would cause an excess burden on many schools that would risk eliminating certain programs in order to cover the costs of the transition; a cost that could've been spread out better over time more efficiently had they transitioned on their own accord instead of being force to by lawyers. 

 

It's a difficult question that I don't think has a proper answer. In the end, I'm torn between informing the school or the teams. I've done both over the past few years. Looking back, it looks as if all the schools I interviewed as part of a piece on the matter have done absolutely nothing to curb the use of their trademark infringing logo. In those cases, I didn't reach out to the teams they were infringing upon. A few weeks ago, out of the blue, I emailed a D2 college regarding it's logo being used by a local high school and minor league indoor football team. The athletic administrator simply replied "we are aware of those two teams." The indoor football team has since folded (though I doubt it was because of logo infringement) and the school, which is relatively brand new, has yet to do anything to curb the usage though it might be too soon to tell. 

 

Side-note: Becoming more and more aware about the doujinshi culture in Japan has given me a unique perspective on this issue. However, given the different laws in both countries, I'm trying to keep my thoughts based in and around US trademark law and precedent as much as possible.