Arena Football team uses clip art!

[evividsolutions]

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[newsenterprise]

evividsolutions,

"The problem with these are the budgets.. The sharks budget fits what they received they were going to use a horrid black silote. Im trying not to talk about money here and what people paid..etc" - Sorry, not buying it.

According to this web Site Buy an AIFL Franchise (or 2) in Western Pennsylvania, it costs $50,000 for a AIFL team.

You expect me to believe these owners in the league that you're trying to help can pay for nice web sites and spend $50,000 just for a team's rights but can't afford a couple hundred bucks (OK, so maybe a $1000) for a freaking logo?

Who do they think they are, indoor football's version of the ABA?

[evividsolutions]

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[Mac the Knife]

You expect me to believe these owners in the league that you're trying to help can pay for nice web sites and spend $50,000 just for a team's rights but can't afford a couple hundred bucks (OK, so maybe a $1000) for a freaking logo?

Who do they think they are, indoor football's version of the ABA?

Maybe it's like the guy who drives around town in that Lamborghini Diablo but lives with his parents because he "can't afford" a house.

[Mings]

You expect me to believe these owners in the league that you're trying to help can pay for nice web sites and spend $50,000 just for a team's rights but can't afford a couple hundred bucks (OK, so maybe a $1000) for a freaking logo?

Who do they think they are, indoor football's version of the ABA?

Maybe it's like the guy who drives around town in that Lamborghini Diablo but lives with his parents because he "can't afford" a house.

dammit quit bad mouthing me! besides its an aston martin and I sleep in the same bedroom as my parents. makes for a really awkward time when i invite ladies over, sometimes we have to have the sleepover in my car.

[Mac the Knife]

Maybe it's like the guy who drives around town in that Lamborghini Diablo but lives with his parents because he "can't afford" a house.

dammit quit bad mouthing me! besides its an aston martin and I sleep in the same bedroom as my parents. makes for a really awkward time when i invite ladies over, sometimes we have to have the sleepover in my car.

For the kind of $$$ those cars cost, you should be able to have the sleepover in the car.

[flynnagain]

evividsolutions,

"The problem with these are the budgets.. The sharks budget fits what they received they were going to use a horrid black silote. Im trying not to talk about money here and what people paid..etc" - Sorry, not buying it.

According to this web Site Buy an AIFL Franchise (or 2) in Western Pennsylvania, it costs $50,000 for a AIFL team.

You expect me to believe these owners in the league that you're trying to help can pay for nice web sites and spend $50,000 just for a team's rights but can't afford a couple hundred bucks (OK, so maybe a $1000) for a freaking logo?

Who do they think they are, indoor football's version of the ABA?

you have hit the nail on the head...and everyone will start doing logo packages for $500.00 and then owners will say i can get it for $500.00, can you give me a better deal...I use to think logo identity (not just one logo) was one of the most important element in creating excitement and a buzz for a new team....i have my doubts now

[CC97]

evividsolutions,

"The problem with these are the budgets.. The sharks budget fits what they received they were going to use a horrid black silote. Im trying not to talk about money here and what people paid..etc" - Sorry, not buying it.

According to this web Site Buy an AIFL Franchise (or 2) in Western Pennsylvania, it costs $50,000 for a AIFL team.

You expect me to believe these owners in the league that you're trying to help can pay for nice web sites and spend $50,000 just for a team's rights but can't afford a couple hundred bucks (OK, so maybe a $1000) for a freaking logo?

Who do they think they are, indoor football's version of the ABA?

you have hit the nail on the head...and everyone will start doing logo packages for $500.00 and then owners will say i can get it for $500.00, can you give me a better deal...I use to think logo identity (not just one logo) was one of the most important element in creating excitement and a buzz for a new team....i have my doubts now

Perhaps you can give us a good idea as to what a logo package should cost to get done

[flynnagain]

Hard to nail that one down.....a lot depends about what is needed......but for a totally new id package i would suggest between $1200.00 US and $2600.00 US depending if you are designing the uni's (alts) as well.....also are you getting the full league or have you done other work for this repeat client (i.e. Allstar logos might be worked into a package).....but below $1000.00 US, man, you got to start thinking about your overhead, courier costs, hi rez outputs etc. ......another factor is how busy are you, in that you may need to hire out none design aspects of the work.........I have been working on a new retail chain id and am working with a store designer to create overall unity to the project...

also think about where you are on the food chain...this one is tough.....i.e. my shop is no where near where our friend Joe Bosack is.....

I would really like to hear what others suggest on this.......I know this is a hard one to .....

[newsenterprise]

Guys,

I'm sorry. With the number that I threw out there, I have no idea what an identity package for a minor league team costs. I didn't know the running rate or anything, I was just trying to throw something out there to make my point (especially when you can afford $50,000 for a franchise fee).

PLease don't think I was trying to downgrade your profession in any way.

[Sterling84]

Thanks for the info Keith. That?s a very valuable post you gave us. Wouldn?t you also agree though that it has something to do with the size and budget of the league in question? At the top end, not the bottom? Brothas gotta eat after all.

For instance, I?ve seen NBA league documents that show merchandise revenue for teams can fluctuate between .5 and 5 million per month (with the high end being during the playoffs for better teams). So given that perhaps 40% of that is to defray cost on items and not profit, lets say the better teams gross 2 million per month on merchandise wordwide?or 10 mil per year to make it easy. (forgoing offseason sales). Certainly they are entitled to most of that. They pay the players, stadium leases and incur all the upfront costs. It is afterall their property. But it would be hard to swallow knowing that you drew something that indirectly resulted in tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars over time. I think that is part of the reason you?d expect to charge six figures to design a logo at the highest level.

Pare that down to say a minor league team. While they make no where near the same amount of money the NBA does, it wouldn?t surprise me if an AHL team grossed a half a million dollars in merch revenue a year. The Moose told me sales bumped 22% the first year of wearing my alternate. How much of that is because it was just new vs because it was good? I can?t say. But 22% of an approx half million is a lot of coin. In any event, they took care of me so that?s not the issue. But I think its plausible to factor in how much will probably be made off your work as well.

If you boil down even further, to a fledgling indoor football league for ex:, I think its reasonable to assume they might not take in more than 25G in merchandise??if that. At least for a few tenuous years. Now it becomes reasonable to see why they are SO hesitant to pay top dollar for an identity. But what they don?t seem to get, is that using a junk logo is the sure-fire way to ensure you NEVER make the millions in revenue.

I myself have set a limit. It is based on no data from anywhere and only gut instinct. I won?t do a real team for less than $2500 anymore. Period. Now, I updated that Rebels for less as a favor and for fun. But its comforting to know I am at least in the ballpark with someone like Keith Flynn?.pricewise if not talentwise.

The other thing to consider is, that when you hear of six figure deals for sports logos, those firms are adding in services that none of us will likely every be able to offer. They are building in the costs (which is what consultants are best at) for legal research into copyrights, other legal fees, travel and office expenses, focus groups, surveys, print and web media implementation, promotional materials and other overhead. It?s never one guy pocketing a hundred grand. They are full on ad agencies with the assorted costs you?d expect them to have.

So IMO there are lots of reasons to charge more than we usually would ask for, and then several reasons to understand why we will never bill ?big fish? prices.

[evividsolutions]

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[flynnagain]

Sterling, very well put, although I might suggest the minor minor leagues ( NIFL ABA AIFL etc.) would be luck to get 15g in merch rev.....I think you might be down playing the importance of having a strong corp id......if you have a second rate logo then you will appear to be a second rate organization.....your moose logo shows that Manitoba has a dynamic first rate org.....the Rebel logo is still pretty lame despite your fix-up (I hope you don't put that one in your portfolio)

[NewYawkSeahawk]

agree 100% with what Sterling just said!

I personally think you should charge a higher base than $2,500 but that's your judgement call.

[evividsolutions]

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[flynnagain]

While I have been hard on you in regards to your logo work....your web design is very nicely done

[Mac the Knife]

but below $1000.00 US, man, you got to start thinking about your overhead, courier costs, hi rez outputs etc.

I may be talking out my ass here, but with all due respect, IMHO these things either are part of the normal cost of doing business or unnecessary. Courier costs? In today's age where concepts can be sent via the internet for free? Who uses couriers anymore?

While I'm completely in favor of artists getting whatever they can in the market for their work, I'm also someone who thinks everyone, regardless of what they do, needs to be realistic about pricing.

With something like logo design, honestly, I would think you would price based on (1) the wherewithall of your client as best you can determine it (i.e., the New York Knicks would pay more than the Weehawken Wanderers), (2) the amount of grief the client gives you (I'm sure there are clients out there who see the first thing offered and go, "That's great! Let's use it as-is!" while there are others that drive designers so crazy they'd like to rip their balls off), and (3) what competitors (if any) are doing.

Sure, you can charge $3K per design and get it once in a while. But for every piece that $3K designer gets, he's got someone out there who is making more money doing things for $500 a pop. And regardless of the quality of the design, guess who's going to get more referral and repeat business? The $500 guy. Why? Because he's inexpensive and produces a satisfactory (if not great) product.

[andrewharrington]

the Rebel logo is still pretty lame despite your fix-up

I like it. The original lacked the definition the black lines provide. Even if it was a free job, and may not be mind-blowing great, Sterling is a professional, and he created a good logo as such. I can think of higher-profile REBELS logos, and this is on the same level. Maybe UNLV, or Ole Miss. No offense to you evivid. Your web design is great, I mean great, but I think your firm would benefit greatly from adding a real, trained logo designer to the office, or striking a deal with a freelancer.

Speaking of web design, my first one came to life yesterday. Introducing the new Berea College home page if you guys want to check it out. The template was done by my supervisor and me, and the colors, icons, and image treatments are mine, but I dont have discretion over the images and words/fonts that go on them in the template though. That is all PR, and they arent very good at it. It almost ruins the page if you ask me.

[flynnagain]

but below $1000.00 US, man, you got to start thinking about your overhead, courier costs, hi rez outputs etc.

I may be talking out my ass here, but with all due respect, IMHO these things either are part of the normal cost of doing business or unnecessary. Courier costs? In today's age where concepts can be sent via the internet for free? Who uses couriers anymore?

While I'm completely in favor of artists getting whatever they can in the market for their work, I'm also someone who thinks everyone, regardless of what they do, needs to be realistic about pricing.

With something like logo design, honestly, I would think you would price based on (1) the wherewithall of your client as best you can determine it (i.e., the New York Knicks would pay more than the Weehawken Wanderers), (2) the amount of grief the client gives you (I'm sure there are clients out there who see the first thing offered and go, "That's great! Let's use it as-is!" while there are others that drive designers so crazy they'd like to rip their balls off), and (3) what competitors (if any) are doing.

Sure, you can charge $3K per design and get it once in a while. But for every piece that $3K designer gets, he's got someone out there who is making more money doing things for $500 a pop. And regardless of the quality of the design, guess who's going to get more referral and repeat business? The $500 guy. Why? Because he's inexpensive and produces a satisfactory (if not great) product.

of course art is compressed and e-mailed off but often you have a client that wants hard copy outputs (and i am not driving to KC although i hear its pretty nice)

and yes it probably is a petty, bad example of overhead:).....as far as the client from hell yes you adjust your price if monster evolves but you let them know.....

and as far as the league level that is very much a factor....but, i think you might consider "is it worth it to go down so low in price for say the "Dildo Attack" (yes there is a place in Newfoundland called Dildo) given the amount of work you will still have to put into it

.....man this has been a great topic

[slapshot]

I'm glad this post isn't turning into a bashing of the league. This isn't the IHA...

Even though it might seem that everyone is against Evivid and the development of the AIFL, I respect the fact he's still here explaining what's been going on without coming across like an ass. There have been some great pointers and advice given here so far, and even though most (if not all) of these teams are probably not going to be able to afford the $2K+ fee for designing their identities, the insight that's been given should only be help things work smoother in the long run. Granted, you get what you pay for, but I think there are plenty of capable and willing artists here who would be happy to come up with professional-looking ideas for a fraction of that cost, if only for the boost to their own egoes and/or portfolios.

This isn't meant to disrespect any of the established professional designers like Sterling, Flynnagain, Joe Bosack et al...every individual needs a boost at some point in their careers. And whether it's in a local recreational league, a startup professional league, or even minor and major league teams, it's a foot in the door either way.