Arena Football team uses clip art!

[Sterling84]

I may be talking out my bum here, but with all due respect, IMHO these things either are part of the normal cost of doing business or unnecessary. Courier costs? In today's age where concepts can be sent via the internet for free? Who uses couriers anymore?

My guess is that sometimes printing out concepts and sending them over is preferable to email if the target contact needs them in presentation format eventually anyway. Either Keith does it for them, or client runs to Kinkos or something and messes it up. Besides, ?normal costs of business? is a term that gets thrown around a lot. We all have those and have to charge more to cover them. When you pay your phone bill, or your car insurance, or buy ketchup you aren?t just purchasing those things. You are paying a wee percentage for the companies toner, and phone bills, and post-it notes and business lunches and all those other things. The big corps build in for it, and so must we.

While I'm completely in favor of artists getting whatever they can in the market for their work, I'm also someone who thinks everyone, regardless of what they do, needs to be realistic about pricing.

Agreed.

With something like logo design, honestly, I would think you would price based on (1) the wherewithall of your client as best you can determine it (i.e., the New York Knicks would pay more than the Weehawken Wanderers), (2) the amount of grief the client gives you (I'm sure there are clients out there who see the first thing offered and go, "That's great! Let's use it as-is!" while there are others that drive designers so crazy they'd like to rip their balls off), and (3) what competitors (if any) are doing.

Sure.

Sure, you can charge $3K per design and get it once in a while. But for every piece that $3K designer gets, he's got someone out there who is making more money doing things for $500 a pop. And regardless of the quality of the design, guess who's going to get more referral and repeat business? The $500 guy. Why? Because he's inexpensive and produces a satisfactory (if not great) product.

This is where I veer away a bit. To function at $500 a pop, you?d have to NEVER get sucked in emotionally and go over your hours to finish it. You?d have to have a VERY steady stream of clients who always paid exactly on time. $500 rules for a hobbiest or student, but when you need your payday every two weeks like clockwork, it sounds awful grim. Plus, I don?t necessarily agree that the $500 guy gets all the referrals and repeats. He gets all the referrals and repeats from people willing to pay $500 maybe. But are you Prada or Goodwill? You?re going to get the kind of customers you cater to, so to speak. Dress the part, etc. Why would a NFL team ever go to a $500 guy? They wouldn?t. And so you must sort of fake it to make it I guess. Get as good as you can, don?t be embarrassed that you can do and deliver what others can not, and go get yours.

[newsenterprise]

evividsolutions,

I think this quote from flynnagain sums it up: "I think you might be down playing the importance of having a strong corp id......if you have a second rate logo then you will appear to be a second rate organization"

Do the Carolina Sharks really believe that they can be thought of first-rate by using a clipart logo? And if so, why would you be involved with someone with such illusions of grandeur (other than the fact you were being paid to design a logo with said clipart)?

As far as some of the MLB logos you mentioned, I highly doubt this was their line of thinking: Let's take this clipart, add a word or two to it, maybe a splash of color and VOILA! We have our logo! ... Somehow, I believe they were all much more in depth than that.

As far as the Carolina Sharks' Web site, according to your own site (http://www.evividsolutions.com/portfolio.php), you design and host their site.

But let me guess, just like the Sharks' logo address started to "magically change" on the AIFL site, that's about to change on your site, too.

But like I said earlier, I don't doubt your web site design talents at all. They're very, very good.

[evividsolutions]

.

[Sterling84]

the Rebel logo is still pretty lame despite your fix-up (I hope you don't put that one in your portfolio)

like it. The original lacked the definition the black lines provide. Even if it was a free job, and may not be mind-blowing great, Sterling is a professional, and he created a good logo as such. I can think of higher-profile REBELS logos, and this is on the same level. Maybe UNLV, or Ole Miss.

LOL!! Well. Two fairly different takes on the issue no? I?m very satisfied with what I did to it. I think it looks much nicer than it did and hopefully fleshes out what Mr. Owner was envisioning.

That said, the concept isn?t ?mine? so I don?t view the work as ?mine.? I wouldn?t put it in my portfolio simply because I didn?t think of it, not as an insult to the league or whatever. It?s hard to explain but concepts are your babies??and you watch them grow and know every line of them inside and out. This was different. Just helping out the best I can.

[slapshot]

The current version is still cartoony, but it looks much more professional and polished than the earlier version with the multiple clouds of dust

I can't say I'm a fan of the DePaul typeface (Demonized is everywhere, even on the AHL All-Star Jersey I own!), but overall it's definitely improved since it was first shown.

[newsenterprise]

evividsolutions,

"tons of the other teams at this level of play use similar quick solutions. ABA, NIFL, UIF.. list goes on.." - Using the ABA, which seems to be the GOLD STANDARD for all minor-league sports success, probably wasn't the best analogy. How many teams in that league -- this year alone -- have we seen fail? And the season's not even over yet. And how many had the quick-fix logo solution (here's a hint ... most of them). The NIFL had a couple of teams not last the season last year. If you wanted to use a good analogy, maybe the CBA for basketball or minor-league baseball (which you don't see much clipart in either of those two leagues).

"I've dealt with the owner of this league for years and Im doing everything I can to help make it a success.." - I'm not doubting that. You're other logos that I have seen appear to be pretty good. And your web design skills are up there with anybody. It seems the league is not trying to do everything though (no offense, but if the Sharks can't afford a logo or to finish their web site less than a couple of months before the season starts, let alone grammar check it once in a while, they appear to be headed for the same fate many ABA teams have). But at the same time, the Canton Legends, Raleigh Rebels, etc., appear to be on solid ground and look like they can have success. But those two probably know IMAGE IS IMPORTANT, too. You have to dress for the part.

I hope the AIFL succeeds. I was thankful when the af2 put a team in Louisville and when the NIFL put a franchise in Lexington, Ky. I like indoor football. And it's cheaper and closer for me to go to an indoor football game than it is to see the NFL. Indoor football is a great, fan-friendly alternative.

I know it seems like I'm blasting you and I realize you're just doing your job. My anger/attitude should be directed more toward the Carolina Sharks and the AIFL (for letting a solid franchise like the Carolina Sharks start in the first place) and not you. For that, I apologize.

But if the Carolina Sharks, a professional football team, thought they could do that and get away with it without a backlash when they were caught, it doesn't take as much smarts to start your own pro team as I thought it would.

[Mac the Knife]

To function at $500 a pop, you?d have to NEVER get sucked in emotionally and go over your hours to finish it. You?d have to have a VERY steady stream of clients who always paid exactly on time. $500 rules for a hobbiest or student, but when you need your payday every two weeks like clockwork, it sounds awful grim. Plus, I don?t necessarily agree that the $500 guy gets all the referrals and repeats. He gets all the referrals and repeats from people willing to pay $500 maybe.

Oh, no argument there, Sterling. What I'm saying though is that there's a helluva lot more of those $500, mom-and-pop clients to be had than those who want what a $3K+ design can provide. And when someone's available to fill that need at that price point, they're the ones who will get the business.

As for eviv and the AIFL, I'm not knocking him at all for what's being done. He's meeting the client's need to the best of his ability, which is all anyone can ask for. And while I hope the AIFL succeeds, based on what (very) little I know about the organization, it looks like its going to be all flash, no dash, and down the road, rapidly fading cash.

And News? If you think the Raleigh Rebels are on solid ground, well that remains to be seen... but there is no press, no mention, no buzz whatsoever about them here. None.

The team's playing an all-road game schedule in 2005. It's against my hopes for the league, but I'll bet dollars to donuts the guy who owns the team has the Rebs play the 2005 season only to see 250-1,500 attendees at games, at which point he'll decide to fold up the tent without ever playing a game here. I hope I'm wrong.

[newsenterprise]

The Mad Mac,

Maybe I should have left it with Canton only and not Raleigh ...

[Brian in Boston]

To be onist (sic) even if they did have the best logo of all time... this wont increase their sales if the team is loosing (sic).

While on-field success will certainly impact merchandise sales, I can guarantee you that a losing team with a piss-poor logo adorning their merchandise is going to generate far less cash via souvenir sales than a losing team with a well-designed logo. That's a fact.

Since no sports franchise - particularly a minor-league, niche-sport entity like a start-up indoor football team - can guarantee their on-field success, it behooves them to have as professional an identity package as possible... because that well-designed logo will end up being the ONLY reason that mechandise gets sold.

Bottom line? To be honest, a well-designed logo would sell merchandise for a losing team.

[slapshot]

While on-field success will certainly impact merchandise sales, I can guarantee you that a losing team with a piss-poor logo adorning their merchandise is going to generate far less cash via souvenir sales than a losing team with a well-designed logo. That's a fact.

See:

Mighty Ducks of Anaheim

San Jose Sharks

Colorado Rockies

Charlotte Hornets

When each of these 4 expansion teams started in their respective leagues, their logos were being worn by people all across the country. It didn't matter that they were first year teams, and almost expected to finish last in their conferences/divisions/leagues, they all had cool logos that attracted people to buy the merchandise with the logos on them.

[NewYawkSeahawk]

Since most of my logo design has been for corporations... let me say this...

When I worked at Computer Associates... a rather well know technology company... they paid in excess of $50,000 for their new logo.

I think we can all agree that Pro Sports Logos will demand and attract a higher interest in merchandising than a corporation would.

You'll see tons of Raiders jackets worn all over the place, but how often do you see someone sporting a Computer Associates jacket?

Point being.... Pro or Semi Pro teams should be paying alot more than $3,000 for logos. Considering how much money they are making back in return on that identity.

Sure, for your local high school team or start up league you might only charge $500. But if you are targetting semi Pro and Pro, you need to step it up.

Sterling said it best... $500 clients are going to refer $500 clients.

[slapshot]

I wouldn't put a semi-pro team in the same financial bracket as the pro teams. The semi-pro team near me is only considered semi-pro because they have ownership and a management committee. The players aren't making any money. The owners pay for the equipment and field use. The owners typically sponsor the team for free advertising, nothing more. any money made through advertising or marchandise usually offsets the field permits and lighting bills, and occasionally extra equipment. They're hardly in this league to make a profit, they are usually friends of the players who just want to play the game.

This is why the logos I've been working on are keeping the same color scheme that the teams are already wearing. It's not like they can just junk the uniforms they have and buy brand spanking new unis and helmets with a cool logo on them. A new logo in the same color scheme will help minimize the overal costs of an identity change. I think in many cases, the less money it will cost in the long run, the more likely a team could be receptive to change their identities.

[flynnagain]

the Rebel logo is still pretty lame despite your fix-up (I hope you don't put that one in your portfolio)

like it. The original lacked the definition the black lines provide. Even if it was a free job, and may not be mind-blowing great, Sterling is a professional, and he created a good logo as such. I can think of higher-profile REBELS logos, and this is on the same level. Maybe UNLV, or Ole Miss.

LOL!! Well. Two fairly different takes on the issue no? I?m very satisfied with what I did to it. I think it looks much nicer than it did and hopefully fleshes out what Mr. Owner was envisioning.

That said, the concept isn?t ?mine? so I don?t view the work as ?mine.? I wouldn?t put it in my portfolio simply because I didn?t think of it, not as an insult to the league or whatever. It?s hard to explain but concepts are your babies??and you watch them grow and know every line of them inside and out. This was different. Just helping out the best I can.

Man, your kinda like me.....I bet you saw the Rebel logo and your hand start twitching on the wacom tablet.......your thinking " I can fix this tune in six strokes or less"

your a real talent and i am glad to see you are not selling yourself short......

by the way, did you have that beer on me?

[Sterling84]

Man, your kinda like me.....I bet you saw the Rebel logo and your hand start twitching on the wacom tablet.......your thinking " I can fix this tune in six strokes or less"

your a real talent and i am glad to see you are not selling yourself short......

by the way, did you have that beer on me?

Thats basically it yeah. I saw the thread develop over time and saw people struggling with what to do with the concept.....should I have less smoke, more smoke, less colors etc.

Eventually (and I mean this as respectfully as possible) you feel like you're watching a kid who can't quite tie their shoes yet. And you say.......aaaah! Just let me do it................................................there!

Just trying to help a fellow board member out.

And yes Keith, I had SEVERAL beers on you.....thanks much.

Maybe we'll get these conventions going eventually and I can return the favor.

BTW - off topic.........I've got some shots of the never used MTS Centre Inaugural Season patch that I'll post tonight. They are SO awesome. Breaks my heart.

[Mac the Knife]

Point being.... Pro or Semi Pro teams should be paying alot more than $3,000 for logos. Considering how much money they are making back in return on that identity.

Sure, for your local high school team or start up league you might only charge $500. But if you are targetting semi Pro and Pro, you need to step it up.

I'll give $100 to anyone, anyone who can show me documented evidence that a semi-pro team makes more than $3K a year in merchandise sales, excluding stuff they sell to their own players. Any team, any level, anywhere.

[Sterling84]

Ya know, I went into some detail about how much the NBA makes merchandise-wise. And I'm sure that helps the bottom line and they are glad to have (even count on) that revenue.

But I'm curious (honestly) as to how merchandise sales in the modern era compare to other revenue sources...i.e. the gate for instance, or concessions.

We are always using merchandise revenue as an indicator of how much our (tremendous ) skills are worth.

Do teams care? Or do they more than care? Do they rely? I'm just guessing but if you were say...........the Admirals here....and sold roughly 3,000 $15 seats 41 times per year. Thats 1.8 million over a year. So I'm guessing at that level at least, that merchandise revenues are significantly important, perhaps accounting for as much as 50% of a teams revenue.

Concessions might be another million of course. But payroll is likely that high for a AHL team so that evens out. Hmmm.

My guesstimations could be WAY off of course.

[NewYawkSeahawk]

Point being.... Pro or Semi Pro teams should be paying alot more than $3,000 for logos. Considering how much money they are making back in return on that identity.

Sure, for your local high school team or start up league you might only charge $500. But if you are targetting semi Pro and Pro, you need to step it up.

I'll give $100 to anyone, anyone who can show me documented evidence that a semi-pro team makes more than $3K a year in merchandise sales, excluding stuff they sell to their own players. Any team, any level, anywhere.

The Long Island Ducks (baseball) definitely sells more than $3K a year in merchandise... Heck they probably sell that in those stupid quack whistles they sell..

$16 average price of sweatshirt or Tshirt x 187.5 = $3,000. That is a more than expected revenue in merchandise per season... People at these game have all kinds of merchandise...

Not to mention... a Good logo for a team = good image.. will also help in attracting Corporate Sponsorships!

I will try to find something documented...

in the meantime you can prepare a PayPal Payment to boakes@optonline.net!

[Geoff]

wow, if that's true then it is a sad joke, especially in light of arena football's recently successful attempt to go mainstream, higher attendance, the NBC deal.

There are some good logos in the league, I like the LA Avengers, Las Vegas Gladiators, and NY Dragons.

That is not the AFL. That's not even arena football. It's indoor football. There is a definite difference. AFL patented it rules

[KCScout76]

Clipart instead of letting ready professionals like we have on the boards do their 'thing' - trying to be cheap.

I saw that logo (clipart) and thought I'd seen it somewhere before - couldn't put my finger on it.

You guys could have done a much better job.

[kansascityjayhawk4]

they sure did a nice job of embarassing themselves..