Vick vs Falcons OC

[paynomind]

This is an interesting op-article

Vick, coaches not on same page

By Jeremy Green

Scouts Inc.

A strong relationship between a starting QB and his offensive coordinator or head coach is fundamental to the success of a football team. In the case of the Atlanta Falcons, that relationship is strained. This past offseason it became very apparent that Michael Vick is not happy with the offense and, while they have never said it publicly, it is fairly evident that offensive coordinator Greg Knapp and head coach Jim Mora Jr. aren't excited about the way Vick runs the system.

I have experience in this area. I came to the Cleveland Browns the year after Tim Couch was drafted. Couch had played in a shotgun system at Kentucky. The offense relied on a lot of short, quick throws. The offense in Cleveland consisted of a vertical passing game based off five- and seven-step drops. Head coach Chris Palmer believed he could make Couch fit the system.

Mora and Knapp didn't draft Vick, but feel he can adapt to their offensive system. Unfortunately, like Couch in Cleveland, Vick has struggled mightily to adapt to a West Coast offense.

Vick looks extremely confused in the system. He does not have the quick trigger to deliver the ball on his three-step reads and often pulls the ball down, disrupting the rhythm and the flow of the offense. Once he leaves the pocket, the receivers need to scramble and find open areas. While Steve Young had some success with this approach, it is really not the way to operate a West Coast system.

However, all the blame for the Falcons' offensive struggles can't be attributed to Vick. The organization is just as much to blame. The offense has lost its way. Vick is a better vertical passer. In two of the last three drafts, the Falcons have selected receivers in the first round. Atlanta selected Ohio State's Michael Jenkins in 2004 and Roddy White from UAB in 2005.

Drafting wide receivers made sense. The Falcons needed quality weapons to help Vick develop. The fact that both Jenkins and White are vertical threats is great for Vick, but also hinders the passing game. The Falcons now have a quarterback and two receivers who don't fit the offense they are trying to run.

Last season, the Falcons finished first in rushing and 27th in passing. Opponents began committing eight men to the box to stop their rushing attack, yet the Falcons still couldn't throw the ball with any consistency. I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what they are trying to do offensively.

Vick clearly has a mentality different from his head coach and the offensive staff. With Atlanta's coaches entering the season on the hot seat, Vick also will be under heavy scrutiny. If the offense sputters and the Falcons are losing games, the finger pointing will begin. The calls for backup Matt Schaub will also come. If the Falcons do make the move to Schaub, they will essentially be admiting Vick is incapable of running the offense.

This is a dangerous game the coaching staff is playing. Vick has the respect of every player in that locker room. When he talks, people listen. But Vick needs this coaching staff to believe in him, as much as the staff needs Vick to believe in the offensive system.

Atlanta is too good to miss the playoffs, but the lackluster passing attack must improve. It's time for Vick and the coaches to get on the same page.

This is something I agree with about 75% The key point I differ on, is whose fault it is. I believe the onus lies squarely on the Offensive Coordinator's shoulders.

Vick is dangerous because he has a big arm, a quick break past the line of scrimmage, and a great running game to support him.

The West Coast offense is a plan of quick outs, cuts and short lobs down the field for 3 and 4 yards at a time.

With all the WRs near the line of scrimmage for their quick patterns, this leaves every defensive player within ten yards of the line of scrimmage, clogging up any potential running lanes for Vick. This takes away his run game. With hardly any plays in the book over 10 yards, this takes away Vick's big arm, and leaving all the routes close allows a D to cheat everyone in, better equipped to challenge the run game.

Thereby, the West Coast offense completely renders null and void any skill advantage the Falcons, and Mike Vick in particular, have over the defenses of the league.

With Vick, and two excellent downfield receivers, (formerly three, but now Finneran is out for the season. Look for Jerome Pathon to take his place,) the Falcons personnel are ideally set up for a big pass attack with an aggressive run game.

Vick can hit guys in stride 20, 30 yards down the field with a rocket. This pushes the DBs and safeties down the field. Crumpler and Dunn on delayed pass patterns occupy the linebackers, leaving Vick to shoot through gaps or around ends with tens of yards of greenspace to run.

I'm betting if you ask any linebacker or safety in the league who they'd least like to see coming down the field at them, one-on-one at full speed; that Vick makes every single one of their top 3 lists.

Mora and company have this year to get the team working. If not, It should be Knapp's head and not Vicks that rolls in Atlanta.

I implore you, Gregg Knapp. Give up on the WC right now, and make the Vick offense from scratch. If even a fat nobody in Woodstock can see it, why can?t you?

Your thoughts?

[Sec19Row53]

I agree with you. Michael Vick is not a great QB. HOWEVER, he is a great athlete who plays QB. You need to tailor your offense to his strengths, not try to revise his skills to fit your offense.

I'm not sure what the offense is that I would point to in terms of a model. There probably isn't one in the pros (and therien lies the rub).

[Cyclopsis Joe]

And I also agree with you (I have to stop doing that!). Vick is a mobile quarterback. He runs left, he runs right, he looks all over the place. Sometimes he throws, sometimes he runs. You can't make him just stand there and throw the ball on cue. I'm not saying he's stubborn or anything, it's just against the way he plays.

Personally, I think that if this year is as bad as last year, then not only the OC, but also Mora need to get sent to the recycle bin. Mora hasn't done one good thing for this team, and if he's worse than the guy we just fired, then obviously we made a mistake.

[TFoA]

The 4th agreement. We've proven on multiple occasions that our vertical game is like a beast waiting to be unleashed. We've gotten players that play to the vertical game. Yet we run the WC Offense. If we don't improve enough in that facet, then Knapp goes, everyone else stays, and we find a coordinator that can run the vertical game & still maintain this beast of a running game we have, while keeping this seemingly improved defense. Ooooh, I can't wait for the day the Falcons finally put this puzzle together and start wuppin ass. But until then, if the offense sputters, Knapp must go.

[paynomind]

The 4th agreement. We've proven on multiple occasions that our vertical game is like a beast waiting to be unleashed. We've gotten players that play to the vertical game. Yet we run the WC Offense. If we don't improve enough in that facet, then Knapp goes, everyone else stays, and we find a coordinator that can run the vertical game & still maintain this beast of a running game we have, while keeping this seemingly improved defense. Ooooh, I can't wait for the day the Falcons finally put this puzzle together and start wuppin ass. But until then, if the offense sputters, Knapp must go.

Two words for the Coordinator who could turn this team into magic:

Ralph Freidgen

[Sec19Row53]

We've proven on multiple occasions that our vertical game is like a beast waiting to be unleashed.

[channels Lee Corso]

Not so fast, my friend. I only saw one Falcons game in person last year (road trip victory for the Packers), and your "vertical game" is lacking due to Vick's inability to consistently throw the deep ball where he needs to. Brian Finneran (of all people - he's not the fastest out there) had Ahmad Carroll beat deep (that shouldn't surprise anyone), and Vick missed him OB by 5 yards. You guys shouldn't be trying to become the Raiders with a long passing game. You need to do more scrambling with fewer deep balls, unless Vick can throw the deep ball while scrambling.

[BlueSky]

I'm happy that the Falcons are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by forcing Vick to fit their system. I encourage them to continue.

[HedleyLamarr]

I'm gonna take the side of the OC here.

Vick is a player the NFL has never seen before, probably the most gifted, athletic player in the league. How do you set up a blocking scheme for a QB who's instinct is to dance around and make something happen? You can't risk having Vick run around against defenses that are a whole lot better than the Temples and the Rutgers of college football, he'll get slaughtered (He already gets injured frequently as it is).

In addition, Vick hasn't been blessed with a true #1 WR who has a deep knowledge of the West-Coast offense. His smartest receiver just went down to a season-ending knee injury. He has two WR's in Jenkins and White who have had less time learning this system than Vick has. These two have the talent to succeed, all they need is time. Plus, Crumpler is still around. The passing game will be alright, though Finneran will be missed, especially in those goalline, 2-point conversion situations.

Vick still has a lot to learn. He has a hell of an arm, but he has to improve his accuracy, both short and long. He has to learn when it's time to run or when to chuck the ball out of bounds. He has to cut down on the number of rainbows he throws, trying to make something happen when he shouldn't have. He has to learn that sacks sometimes are better than potential INT's. And as he just admitted last week, he didn't give it his all once the Falcons were eliminated from playoff contention. What does that mean? He has to back up his vows of working harder.

Knapp uses QB bootlegs, uses plays that make it look like Vick's going to be running, and deception is what works in the NFL today, not a QB running around on every play. Vick running for around 40-50 yards per game is what you should expect at the most. If he can add, say 50 yards, more to his passing average from last season, that puts him close to 200-210 yards passing per game, plus his 40-50 yards running, puts him near 250 yards per game, and well within the top 10 in total yards from the QB.

And the Falcons' defense will be better from last season, giving Vick an oppotunity to work against a tiring opposing defense more. In other words, more running opportunities for Vick.

The Falcons' offense will be just fine, folks.

[paynomind]

Very well written, Headley. Many of your facts are dead on, such as the lack of a #1 WR.

But I disagree with your feel-good story about Knapp(Sack). Vick needs more downfield passing and room to run to be successful, in my mind.

The Temples, the Rutgers... the Packers, the Panthers, the Vikings... all of which he has run like wild successfully over, past, and through.

[NJTank]

If Vick is ever going to trully be a star he needs to throw more. Sure he can run, but if you hit him and stop him from running hes going to struggle and the Flacons are going to lose.

[BlueSky]

If every team would and could play D against Mr. Vick like Tampa Bay, the "Flacons" (not sure if the previous poster intended the misspelling but it's funny) would have a very long season. They blanket the receivers and set up a perimeter at the line of scrimmage to contain Vick. I've been entertained watching him dart this way and that looking desperately for a running or passing lane.

Atlanta is 2-6 against TB from 2002-2005:

2002 L 20-6 L 34-10

2003 L 31-10 W 30-28

2004 W 24-14 L 27-0

2005 L 30-27 L 27-24

[NJTank]

The Bucs are a perfect example of what I meant. Tough swarming defense that traps him in the pocket.

[HedleyLamarr]

But I disagree with your feel-good story about Knapp(Sack). Vick needs more downfield passing and room to run to be successful, in my mind.

Again though, how do you block a guy who has a tendancy to dance around and leave the pocket?

Peyton is successful because he stays in the pocket and won't force anything by trying to run. Steve Young was successful because he would stay in the pocket and wouldn't resort to running so quickly. Vick, for the most part, hasn't shown this aspect yet. How can we expect Vick to stay in the pocket for the deep passes, yet have him running more?

The Falcons have a lot of money invested in Vick. They can't risk him injuring himself on a flukey play, like that preseason game vs. Baltimore, and be without his services for most or all of a season, just because the fans want him running more. He will get his share of designed runs, and he'll have his opportunities to scramble if the situation is right for him to run.

[Cyclopsis Joe]

If every team would and could play D against Mr. Vick like Tampa Bay, the "Flacons" (not sure if the previous poster intended the misspelling but it's funny) would have a very long season. They blanket the receivers and set up a perimeter at the line of scrimmage to contain Vick. I've been entertained watching him dart this way and that looking desperately for a running or passing lane.

Atlanta is 2-6 against TB from 2002-2005:

2002 L 20-6 L 34-10

2003 L 31-10 W 30-28

2004 W 24-14 L 27-0

2005 L 30-27 L 27-24

Personally, I think you have your own NFC South blundering team to worry about. Hate to be a jackass, but really.

[HedleyLamarr]

Just a few tidbits about the Falcons offense and Vick I heard earlier today on a sports-talk radio show. I haven't checked it out for 100% accuracy, so do your own research.....

- Atlanta's offense averaged 21 points per game in 2004 (the season they went to the NFC title game), and 22 points in 2005. Both seasons, they were middle-of-the-pack in points per game. Thus, it wasn't the offense's fault that the team wasn't as successful in 2005 as it was in 2004.

- In both seasons, the Falcons ran the ball 54% of the time, and passed 46%. In comparison, last year Carolina had a 50-50 ratio.

Bottom line, the offense has been improving over time. Vick, Dunn, Duckett, Crumpler, White, and Jenkins now have another year of experience under their belt. Granted the injury bug doesn't hit hard, the offense will put up more points this year.

[See Red]

If every team would and could play D against Mr. Vick like Tampa Bay, the "Flacons" (not sure if the previous poster intended the misspelling but it's funny) would have a very long season. They blanket the receivers and set up a perimeter at the line of scrimmage to contain Vick. I've been entertained watching him dart this way and that looking desperately for a running or passing lane.

Atlanta is 2-6 against TB from 2002-2005:

2002 L 20-6 L 34-10

2003 L 31-10 W 30-28

2004 W 24-14 L 27-0

2005 L 30-27 L 27-24

Maybe other teams don't have the guys to do it like Tampa Bay does.

[paynomind]

Just a few tidbits about the Falcons offense and Vick I heard earlier today on a sports-talk radio show. I haven't checked it out for 100% accuracy, so do your own research.....

- Atlanta's offense averaged 21 points per game in 2004 (the season they went to the NFC title game), and 22 points in 2005. Both seasons, they were middle-of-the-pack in points per game. Thus, it wasn't the offense's fault that the team wasn't as successful in 2005 as it was in 2004.

- In both seasons, the Falcons ran the ball 54% of the time, and passed 46%. In comparison, last year Carolina had a 50-50 ratio.

Bottom line, the offense has been improving over time. Vick, Dunn, Duckett, Crumpler, White, and Jenkins now have another year of experience under their belt. Granted the injury bug doesn't hit hard, the offense will put up more points this year.

To be honest, I want to continue the debate, but I barely understand your points, making it hard to contradict them.

[whitedawg22]

Is it really that hard to adapt an offense to a unique talent like Vick? The first 2 things that came to mind were the Texas offense the last few years with VY and the 1994 49ers-Cowboys regular season game.

I realize college football is an entirely different ballgame, but Mack Brown, who previously was a fairly conservative offensive coach, realized that VY was a unique talent and went to the spread option as his base offense the last 2 years. Result? National title. I'm not saying that the Falcons should use the spread option, because Vick would get killed, but it's not hard to imagine an offense that has Vick throwing on the run using rollouts a good percentage of the time, with even a few run/pass options thrown in. The West Coast is a successful system because it creates opportunities for players. But Vick thrives on creating his own opportunities, making the WC exactly the wrong system for him.

As somewhat of a 49er fan, I vividly remember the 1994 Cowboys-Niners game, which the 49ers won 21-14 to finally get the monkey off Steve Young's back. In that game, Young had something like 7 runs for 93 yards, most of it on designed runs. Yet I don't remember Young taking any big hits on his runs; he either slid or got out of bounds. If Vick becomes a smarter runner, the Falcons would be stupid not to do the same thing and take advantage of his talents. Right now, though, he tries to make too much happen on every play, resulting in injuries, turnovers, and a ludicrous amount of sacks. If Knapp could teach him to slide, get out of bounds, and throw the ball away, it would probably have an even bigger impact than whatever system they use.

Bottom line? Shared responsibility. Knapp needs to install a better system for Vick's talents, but Vick needs to play intelligently and responsibility, something he has been loathe to do so far.

[HedleyLamarr]

Just a few tidbits about the Falcons offense and Vick I heard earlier today on a sports-talk radio show.  I haven't checked it out for 100% accuracy, so do your own research.....

- Atlanta's offense averaged 21 points per game in 2004 (the season they went to the NFC title game), and 22 points in 2005.  Both seasons, they were middle-of-the-pack in points per game.  Thus, it wasn't the offense's fault that the team wasn't as successful in 2005 as it was in 2004.

- In both seasons, the Falcons ran the ball 54% of the time, and passed 46%.  In comparison, last year Carolina had a 50-50 ratio.

Bottom line, the offense has been improving over time.  Vick, Dunn, Duckett, Crumpler, White, and Jenkins now have another year of experience under their belt.  Granted the injury bug doesn't hit hard, the offense will put up more points this year.

To be honest, I want to continue the debate, but I barely understand your points, making it hard to contradict them.

That post wasn't something to be debated. They were just the stats from the last two seasons.

That said, the offense improved, point-wise, from 2004 to 2005, and other than Finneran, the key personnel has stayed the same. Thus, there's no reason to believe that, assuming no other major injury takes place, the offense will be in digression mode in 2006.

[BlueSky]

If every team would and could play D against Mr. Vick like Tampa Bay, the "Flacons" (not sure if the previous poster intended the misspelling but it's funny) would have a very long season.  They blanket the receivers and set up a perimeter at the line of scrimmage  to contain Vick.  I've been entertained watching him dart this way and that looking desperately for a running or passing lane. 

Atlanta is 2-6 against TB from 2002-2005:

2002  L 20-6    L 34-10

2003  L 31-10  W 30-28

2004  W 24-14  L 27-0

2005  L 30-27  L 27-24

Personally, I think you have your own NFC South blundering team to worry about. Hate to be a jackass, but really.

Well, seems simple to me...if you hate to be a jackass, don't be one.

When Mora came here, I was really impressed and thought uh oh, these guys are going to be good. But now you have to wonder if he was really ready for this level of responsibility. Like the subject of this thread. When Shula didn't have a QB, he ran. When Marino came, they passed. He adapted his style to the available talent. Mora and Knapp can't seem to figure that out and keep trying to make Vick something he's not. Whether fans want to accept it, Schaub would be a better QB for the offense they're running. Not a better QB than Vick; a better one for THIS offense.

Now Payton will have a similar challenge in N.O. with Reggie Bush. Let's see if he can successfully use the many weapons the Saints have on offense.

We'll have a nice MNF stage in September to see who's blundering. Let's talk after.