The 1963 AFL New Orleans Saints

[B-Rich]

Anyone know who was the first team to actually use three colors (other than white) on their unis at once? I wanna say the Eagles (green, black and silver) but I keep thinking there must have someone before them.

There were at least two NFL teams who used three colors in the late sixties and early seventies in ways other than just a "smidge" ( e.g., the tiny bit of yellow in the Cardinals' beak):

-- Houston- at one point had Columbia blue, scarlet AND Silver (helmets, and I think they may at one point had had silver pants. Wish that great NFL uniforms history site was still up to verify).

-- Atlanta-- for the longest time had black and red and silver (pants; and had silver accents/stripes/numbers in their jersey for awhile) . For their first couple of years, they even had thin gold stripes on the edge of their black/white/black helmet stripe, a nod to Georgia Tech). These unis were carried well into 1989 if I'm not mistaken, unitl they went with the primarily black look under Glanville.

As such, I don't think it's out of the question to think the alt-history Chiefs may have come up with a blue/red/gold or blue/black/gold scheme in 1967... but I still I'm still leaning towards it being black and gold, or royal and gold. If you take Mecom as owner out of the equation, the black and gold is much less likely.

Other tertiaries in history (I am completely ignoring the Cowboys, who are a mess. Ask any fifth grader what their colors are, and he'll say "blue and silver". Ask Donovan and he can provide the whole handful of shades of navy/royal/metallic blue/metallic green/silver/black that they have actually used all over their uniform).

-- In 1976, the Seattle Seahawks came out with blue, silver and green as a three-color primary set.

Other than that, the rise of 'tertiary' colors seemed to have happened relatively recently:

-- Patriots added silver in their revamped scheme.

-- Jets for a while in their jet outline helmet days featured black accent sripes and outlines.

-- Carolina came in with three colors: Carolina blue, black and silver.

-- Jaguars came in with three colors: black, teal, and metallic gold.

-- Eagles switched from kelly green to midnight green and added black to their scheme.

-- 49ers added black to their revamped scheme.

-- Dolphins added that navy blue to their scheme along with the logo change.

-- Buccaneers added pewter and black to their revamped scheme.

-- Ravens new identity included black, purple, and metallic gold

-- Titans new identity included the Oilers' columbia blue and scarlet, but added navy

-- Giants' move to throwbacks included gray pants

-- Lions a few years ago added black

-- Seahawks new scheme features pacific blue, navy blue, and a small amount of lime green.

-- Chargers recently re-added powder blue with their new scheme.

I may have missed some, but that's a pretty good list.

....I'll have some comments on the actual alt-history stuff (particularly Panthers' posts) but I moved the two books I mentioned from my work library back to my home library and wanted to check some things. I'll do that tonight.

[TruColor]

A few things in response to B-Rich's post:

1. Houston indeed, was one of the first teams to incorporate at least three colors (plus White) into their color scheme. And yes, they wore Silver pants in those days as well. One note: the "Columbia Blue" in those days was a different color than was used later; it was called "Silver-Blue" on official documents.

2. Atlanta's original color scheme was Red, Black, White and Old Gold. As B-Rich pointed out, the Old Gold was only used in the striping on the helmets. And, it was only present for the first three seasons - 1966 through 1969. However, the team did continue to list Old Gold as an official team color until 1977 or so. Silver didn't come into the color palette until 1978 - and it was actually a non-metallic Gray. In 1990, when Jerry Glanville revamped the uniforms to a predominently Black scheme, the Silver switched to metallic.

3. Even though the Jets did use Black during the 1990 through 1997 seasons, they can't be considered one of these "tertiary" color palette teams. They only used Kelly Green, Black and White (!).

4. Even though the Oilers were one of the first "modern" teams to go with three colors plus White, a lot of the early teams of the '30s and '40s had multiple colored sets. The Brooklyn Dodgers from 1930 through 1943 had various color schemes of Green, Gray, White and Black, to Red, Blue, Silver and White.

[Gothamite]

The Packers used various amounts of Navy, Green and Gold from the 1930s through the mid-1960s.

[Needschat]

Would the Saints have stayed with Lamar Hunt's scarlet, yellow and white scheme or used the Mardi Gras purple, green, and gold? I think he would have used the latter.

[B-Rich]

My replies and add'l info re: Panthers' posts:

Two orginil AFL franchises never took the field - Minneapolis and Seattle. When the Seattle franchise could not get the University of Washington to budge on using Huskie Stadium, the franchise went to Buffalo. Minneapolis, after the NFL awarded Max Winter an expansion franchise, shifted the team to Oakland.

Well, according to the text as well as first-hand accounts in Going Long, close. You're on spot about the AFL shifting their Minnesota franchise, but Seattle never got past the talking stage into the "franchise" stage. Lamar Hunt in that book notes that Houston, Denver, Minneapolis and Seattle were the first four cities where he contacted people. Hunt stated that prospective owner "Willard Rhodes from Seattle was definitely willing to do it if they could find a place to play but was turned down by Husky Stadium, by the University of Washington. So they could not proceed forward." (pp. 3-4). The official unveiling of the American Football was held on August 14, 1959, but it was originally announced with "at least" six teams-- in New York, Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Denver and Minneapolis. After that announcement, Ralph Wilson apporached the league about getting a franchise to be located in Miami. The city of Miami wouldn't let him use the Orange Bowl, so he wound up placing the franchise in Buffalo (pp.7-8).

....According to the history of the Miami Dolphins (Pro Magazine [Dolphins game program], 1973), when Al Davis took over the league, he sought to put one expansion franchise head to head with the NFL. They were looking at Philadelphia (McClosky Family which later owned the NASL Philadelphia Atoms and I believe was originally awarded the Tampa Bay Bucs franchise before Hugh Culverhouse) when they switched gears and actually awarded a franchise to Atlanta... When the NFL announced Atlanta, the AFL revoked the franchise and actor Danny Thomas, Joe Robbie and others secured the franchise for Miami.

The AFL at their June 1965 meeting committed to expanding by two teams for the 1966 season. The targeted cities were Atlanta and Philadelphia. However, before an expansion AFL franchise could be granted to Atlanta, it appeared the Denver Broncos were to be sold to Leonard Reinsch, head of Cox Broadcasting in Atlanta. But the DAY after the tentative deal was reached, Reinsch and his wife went to New Zealand, where she was scheduled for surgery. The NFL swooped in and within three-four days, lined up Rankin Smith and awarded the future Falcons franchise on June 30th 1965. The group bidding for the Philadelphia franchise withdrew its bid. The AFL then awarded a franchise to Miami in 1965, with the franchise beginning play in 1966 (Going Long, pp. 207-208).

Al Davis didn't become AFL commissioner until April 1966.

And does anyone know if Seattle, Minneapolis, Atlanta (AFL) had team names?

As indicated above, with the AFL, Seattle never got to the franchise stage, nor did Atlanta, so no, there was never a team name. I'm 99% sure that the Vikings name only came after the NFL awarded the franchise-- Max Winter pulled out in the AFL's first league meeting/collegiate draft in November of 1959.

....What if Birmingham and Memphis had gotten expansion franchises back in the 70's? Would they have kept their identities as the Americans and Southmen?

Well, it depends on what you mean. By "kept"? do you mean if they joined the NFL after the WFL folded? Because Birmingham was the Americans in 1974, but changed their name to the Vulcans for the 1975 season. Likewise, although Memphis was officially the Southmen both years, in 1975 they were unoffically known as the Grizzlies....

It should be noted that Birmingham and Memphis were initially considered for the expansion of 1976, but when the expansion finalists were announced (in April and June of 1974) those two cities were getting ready to start in the WFL. In fact, according to The League: the Rise and Decline of the NFL by David Harris, the WFL sent a wire to the NFL stating that if the NFL was to expanded into their cities, they would construe it as an attempt to run them out of business and they would sue the NFL (p. 176)....

Following the demise of the WFL, Memphis owner John Bassett and the group running Birmingham announced their intention to apply for membership in the NFL as "ongoing entities". By this time, the Memphis Southmen offcially changed their business name to the Mid-South Grizzlies, and they sued the NFL after the league?s Expansion Committee denied the Grizzlies entrance into the league, alleging that the Committee?s standards for admitting new franchises were unfair, that the NFL was retaliating against the Grizzlies for competing against the NFL as members of the World Football League, and that the NFL was monopolizing professional football in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act.

They lost.

[bulldogbarks55]

It being just a few days after All Saints Day, a date on which the New Orleans NFL franchise (later to be officially dubbed the Saints) was announced back in 1966, it appeared appropriate to present something which has been occupying far too much of my time recently.

I recently completed a pretty good book by Dave Dixon, a local businessman and founder of the USFL who was instrumental in the city obtaining the Saints and the Superdome being built. The book is entitled The Saints, the Superdome and the Scandal, and presents a pretty good history of all these happenings as well as an autobiography of Mr. Dixon?s life.

One part of the book really stood out to me, though, as a ?what if? kind of question. In 1963, Mr. Dixon posits that New Orleans had a very strong shot of acquiring the Dallas Texans AFL franchise-- in fact; he states that had he not made certain mistakes, Lamar Hunt would have almost certainly moved the team there. As most of you know, for the first three years of that team?s existence, they shared the Dallas market with the Cowboys. After the 1962 season, Hunt began looking elsewhere, eventually settling on Kansas City, where his franchise became the Chiefs that we know today. Dixon states that following the 1962 season, Lamar Hunt?s manager came to New Orleans to work with Dixon and arrange a deal to play at Tulane University. This is borne out not only in Dixon?s book (pp.53-57. ?The Lamar Hunt Opportunity?) but also is referred to in Jeff Miller?s history of the AFL, Going Long, by first-hand testimony of both Dixon and Lamar Hunt (pp. 72-73)

However, as Dixon relates, Hunt was so concerned about secrecy and security that he asked Dixon to tell the Tulane University committee that the request for stadium availability was for any AFL franchise. The Tulane board, which was holding out hope for an NFL expansion franchise and was not about to commit to the possibility of an expansion team in the upstart AFL, never formally reacted to Hunt?s request. Dixon states that in looking back, he realizes he should have used his powers of persuasion to convince the Tulane board to make a commitment to the AFL, subject to their approval of an individual team owner. In that way, the Tulane committee could have been protected, Hunt?s secrecy wouldn?t have been blown, and the Texans would have become the New Orleans Saints in the 1963 season.

How would these Saints have looked? Well, from looking at how easily the Texans transformed into the Chiefs (basically just changing the helmet logo), probably pretty easily. They would have looked a lot like this:

And who knows, maybe the line drawing logo, instead of going from this:

to this:

may have even changed to this:

But what gets interesting is to think how this simple innocuous change would affect later events in at least three other pro sports, how via ?the butterfly effect? things would be different. This is my take on how things would progress:

1963- Dallas Texans move to New Orleans, become New Orleans Saints.

1964 ? Charlie Finley, owner of the Kansas City Athletics baseball team, requests to relocate his team first to Louisville, KY, then to Oakland, CA. As in our world, both requests are denied. However, unlike in our world, as he is ?the only game in town? Finley does not agree to a 4-year lease with Kansas City?s Municipal Stadium, instead remaining a tenant-at-will?.

Houston Astrodome is completed in late November. Talk of a similar domed stadium for New Orleans to house the Saints and a possible MLB team begins in earnest.

1965-- Similar to our world, the AFL?s efforts to place a team in Atlanta are thwarted by the NFL, who awards that city a franchise that later becomes the Falcons. The AFL awards a franchise to Miami, later named the Dolphins. Both franchises are to begin play in 1966.

In Kansas City, mayor Ike Davis enlists his predecessor, H. Roe ?The Chief? Bartle, to head up a committee to obtain a pro football franchise for their city. Missouri Senator Stuart Symington is also on board.

In November, Louisiana citizens pass an amendment allowing the creation of a domed Stadium in New Orleans.

1966- Similar to our world, in April 1966, Joe Foss resigns as AFL commissioner and is replaced by Al Davis. Several movers and shakers within both the NFL and AFL meet secretly, hammer out details, and then announce a merger agreement in principle in June of 1966. However, it becomes clear that the new merged league will need a limited anti-trust exemption granted to it by Congress? by the end of baseball season, Charlie Finley announces that he is planning to seek relocation approval to move the A?s to New Orleans and their soon-to-be constructed Superdome. Before a vote (which seemed likely to pass) was taken, however, Missouri Senator Stuart Symington threatens legislation to revoke the major leagues? antitrust exemption. Seeing their chance, Rozelle and AFL figures make their move. Meeting with Symington, Louisiana Senator Russell Long and House majority Leader Hale Boggs of Louisiana (and later involving owners and officials of major league baseball) they convince them to draft a ?pro sports limited anti-trust exemption? measure, which places some limits on MLB?s anti-trust exemption, but also gives pro football the exact same status. The implicit payoff is that Kansas City will be awarded an expansion football team, Finley will be forced to sell the A?s to local interests, and New Orleans will receive an MLB expansion franchise in the coming years. Within a month of the passage of the measure by Congress, Kansas City is awarded an NFL franchise to begin play in 1967. The owner selected by the merged league is John Mecom, Jr. In a ?name the team? contest, the team is dubbed the Chiefs (mainly to honor the efforts of beloved H. Roe Bartle). The team colors are black and gold, with a nod to the owners? source of wealth (oil) and in a nod to the state university. The uniforms in fact bear a noted resemblance to those of the Missouri Tigers:

1967 ? Green Bay Packers defeat the New Orleans Saints in the first AFL-NFL championship game, later to be known formally as the Super Bowl?. In the fall, the Kansas City Chiefs begin play, and Kansas City voters approve the funding of a sports complex to house facilities for the Chiefs and the A?s.

1968 ? Major league baseball announces a four team expansion, with teams beginning play in 1971: San Diego and New Orleans in the National League, Seattle and Oakland in the American League?.Cincinnati Bengals begin play in the AFL.

1970-- Super Bowl IV, originally to be held in the new Superdome, has to be held in Tulane Stadium due to construction delays. However, the New Orleans Saints become the first and only NFL team to play in and win a Super Bowl in their home stadium, defeating the Minnesota Vikings.

1971 ? Seattle Pilots begin play in a well-renovated Sick?s Stadium on a ?temporary? basis while the Kingdome is being planned. Oakland Oaks begin play in Oakland-Alameda Stadium, the Padres begin play in San Diego Stadium, and the Superdome is finished just in time (barely) for the season opener of the New Orleans Pelicans.... New Orleans Saints move into the Superdome later that year.

1972?Superdome hosts its first Super Bowl? Kansas City Chiefs begin playing in Arrowhead Stadium? Cincinnati?s NBA franchise relocates to Kansas City-Omaha and becomes the Kansas City-Omaha Royals (later, just the Kansas City Royals).

1973 ? Kansas City A?s begin play in A?s Stadium.

1976- Seattle Pilots move to their new digs in the Kingdome, along with the NFL expansion Seahawks. Baseball awards expansion franchises to Milwaukee and Toronto to begin play the following year.

1987- Due to stadium issues and lack of attendance due to poor play and a downturn in the local economy, the New Orleans Pelicans are sold and moved to Denver, Colorado.

Your thoughts? Differs? (I know there's a few alternative history buffs on the board)

Except for the Gold pants, those "Kansas City Chiefs" uniforms bear an awfully close resemblance to the original Oakland Raiders' pre-Black and Silver duds.

[illwauk]

-- Eagles switched from kelly green to midnight green and added black to their scheme.

Actually, they had black in the scheme during the Buddy Ryan regime. That's what made me think they might have been the first to use 3 colors... but I figured someone probably did before them. Can't believe I forgot about the 'Hawks though...

The Packers used various amounts of Navy, Green and Gold from the 1930s through the mid-1960s.

I always figured the Packers followed Notre Dame's "sometimes navy, sometimes green, but never at the same time" mantra. Did they ever use both at once (excluding sideline jackets and other non-uniform paraphernalia)?

Would the Saints have stayed with Lamar Hunt's scarlet, yellow and white scheme or used the Mardi Gras purple, green, and gold? I think he would have used the latter.

Given how ahead of the curve the AFL was at the time (and now knowing that at least one AFL team used three colors), I think that's definetly possible. It also wasn't that much longer til the New Orleans Jazz actually did go that route.

[illwauk]

Just to throw one last monkey wrench in here and indulge in my bad habit of bringing the Packers or Brewers into every discussion...

1976- Seattle Pilots move to their new digs in the Kingdome, along with the NFL expansion Seahawks. Baseball awards expansion franchises to Milwaukee and Toronto to begin play the following year.

With County Stadium having been out of use (other than for Packers, UWM football games and concerts) for eleven years, talks of a new stadium probably would have surfaced sometime in the early-mid 80s when the Packers' Milwaukee games were still a necessity rather than a nuisance (as they'd become in the 90s)... how likely is it that a multi-purpose, SkyDome type, retractable roof stadium gets built where Miller Park stands now? Are the Packers then bound to playing games in Milwaukee well into the 21st century? And how, if at all, does that affect the Packers' 27-game home win streak during their Super Bowl runs?

[Panthers]

I thought in David Harris' book he mentioned that Seattle did get a franchise. I haven't read it in a while so I could be off on that.

I do know that Oakland and Buffalo were replacement franchises. I thought initially, Miami, back in '66 would never get a franchise because of the dismal showing of the Miami Seahawks of the AAFL. Oh, and I read somewhere that the Oilers added silver as copying the Cowboys, much like the Chargers did with the Rams (quick, who was the first team with colored facemaks? San Diego - '74).

Suppose we revisit history this way.

AFL - Original 8

'63 Dallas moves to New Orleans; AFL grants franchise to Atlanta

'65: A's move to Atlanta; KC furious over games Finley has played, entices Braves to move to KC with promise of new ball park. NHL as part of expansion places team in Milwaukee to give Chicago a more natural geographic rival (replaces Oakland)

'66 In an attempt to attract MLB, Oakland builds new stadium. NFL/AFL merger; NFL to add team in Minneapolis for '66; AFL adds KC

'67 Baseball to expand for '69 - Montreal, San Diego, Oakland, Seattle. NBA adds Milwaukee and Phoenix, Seattle and Cleveland

'74 NFL will expand in '76 by two, possibly four. Cities under consideration: Cincinnati, Phoenix, Tampa, Seattle, Birmingham, Memphis. Lamar Hunt pushed for Birmingham (remember, AFL played all star games and preseason games there all the time); Seattle picked next.

Future NFL moves/expansion: Cleveland to Cincinnati; Cleveland gets expansion team; Houston to Carolina; Houston gets expansion team; Tampa, Memphis get teams