Long lost Saints jersey style

[darkhaha]

While doing some online research recently, I came across the following photos ostensibly from 1970:

This design is new to me. I've seen the gold and white numbers, of course, but never with this striping pattern on the sleeves. I thought that perhaps these were prototypes that never made it into game action, and then I came across this one:

The site where I found this photo says it came from 1969, which would make sense in light of the striped tube socks, but neither team has the NFL 50 year anniversary patch. So I think this one probably came from 1970, too. Football Uniforms Past & Present (which, though I admire it greatly, has a number of historical and design inaccuracies) lists the Saints as wearing plain white numbers with the Packer-style sleeve striping for 1970.

These jerseys are beautiful, IMHO, and I can't imagine why the Saints would have switched to something different mid-season. Can anyone shed any light?

[ColeJ]

my suggestion would be to look up the schedule and see if you can figure out when and where they played dallas that year... also, factor in that sometimes preseason throws a wrench into these "when was it worn" discussions.

but i agree. that does look great.

-edit-

looks like 1969 to me, unless it's 1970 preseason? cowboys/saints played twice in 69 (one home each), but not at all in 1970.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/team.../1969_games.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/team.../1970_games.htm

[BlueSky]

Those are beautiful, and I'm certain the pic is from 1969 although I can't explain why they're not wearing the NFL 50th patch. Did all teams wear the patch or just those who were around when the league was formed? And both Dallas and the Saints had shoulder TV numbers, wasn't that where the patch was worn? I'll have to check further into that aspect.

The jersey is the '67-'68 number style with updated sleeve stripes. As you noted, in 1970 they kept the stripes but went to really cheap looking pressed-on plain white numbers. Guess gold tackle-twill was on the list of things that didn't interest owner John Mecom, along with good coaches and competent front office staff.

Here's a 1970 game pic of Danny Abramowicz. Stripes are the same, numbers different:

EDIT: I erred in saying the sleeve stripes are the same in the 1970 pic. As BigDub81 pointed out (and as can be plainly seen by comparing with the posed pics), the colors are reversed from '69 to '70 - the '69 jersey order was done incorrectly with w-g-w-g-w stripes while the team head ordered g-w-g-w-g as seen in the 1970 game pic below of Danny Abramowicz. I regret the error in my original post.

Also there's this one, known to be from 1970 'cause it's Dempsey's record 63-yard FG.

Was at the Dempsey game and would give just about anything to have that ticket stub, which was lost somewhere along the road of life.

I went to my first Saints game on 12/21/69, a win over Pittsburgh. It was HOF DE Doug Atkins' last game and ended with a bench-clearing fight, the highlights of which were Atkins crushing a Steeler lineman's cage facemask back against the guy's face, breaking his nose, and Abramowicz being kicked right in the a** by a Steeler as Danny stood on tiptoe at the edge of the fight trying to see what was going on. Good times.

Honestly though, try as I might I can't remember the Saints unis that day but I know for sure that they didn't wear the jerseys you're asking about in '67 or '68 and that they wore the one pictured above in '70, so that leaves the Kilmer pic as 1969. The pic below is known to be from 1968 because of the white-black-white helmet stripe, worn only for part of that season. Note how the pants stripe matches the helmet, except for the right tackle, who surely felt embarrassed and left out that day.

The sleeve stripes are the initial white-gold-white-gold-white design with no space in between, used in 1967-68. For '69 and after, their stripes have been gold-white-gold-white-gold and have had a thin black line in between.

BTW, thanks for posting those. I'm asking my wife for a Home Run Derby authentic Saints throwback for Christmas and couldn't decide which one to get. I had forgotten that '69 design, which IMO is better looking than the '67-'68 design and it fits perfectly since '69 is the year I attended my first game. I'm going with the '69 version.

[Gothamite]

Those are beautiful, and I'm certain the pic is from 1969 although I can't explain why they're not wearing the NFL 50th patch. Did all teams wear the patch or just those who were around when the league was formed? And both Dallas and the Saints had shoulder TV numbers, wasn't that where the patch was worn? I'll have to check further into that aspect.

That might have something to do with it - the only place I've ever seen the 50th patch was on the left shoulder.

It wasn't just limited to founding teams, though (the Packers wouldn't have been wearing one were that the case). The 49ers wore the patch as well:

http://flickr.com/photos/55173627@N00/2231212020/sizes/o/

[ferrousoxide66]

Look at all that beautiful striping. Now THAT'S how it should be done!

[bigdub81]

I'm doing a uniform history concept for the Saints on another board and I have researched this topic so here's your answer.

The jerseys in those pics are the ones they wore for the final nine games of the 1969 season. They used the correct color sequence from 1967-68 season which was white/gold/white/gold/white but the order was for a reversal of the color pattern of the '69 stripes which in that year had been switched by using a metallic gold base stripe with two white stripes outlined in black placed on top. When Sand Knit sent the jerseys to the team and the mistake was pointed out, John Meacom the teams's owner at the time, didn't see the need to re-do the jerseys again just for nine games so he let the team go ahead with them. As you can see in the pic of Billy Kilmer vs Dallas the team didn't even bother to go back to wearing the '67-'68 style socks. They just switched jerseys and went on to play! Also, the team didn't start wearing the NFL 50th Anniversary patch until two weeks after the game versus Dallas. The game against the 49ers on 11-23-69 is when they were placed onto the uniforms.

Hope this helps and yes those jerseys look great!

[Harmening]

Look at all that beautiful striping. Now THAT'S how it should be done!

Except for #78's pant stripes.

Even his socks stripes are different.

[BlueSky]

I'm doing a uniform history concept for the Saints on another board and I have researched this topic so here's your answer.

The jerseys in those pics are the ones they wore for the final nine games of the 1969 season. They used the correct color sequence from 1967-68 season which was white/gold/white/gold/white but the order was for a reversal of the color pattern of the '69 stripes which in that year had been switched by using a metallic gold base stripe with two white stripes outlined in black placed on top. When Sand Knit sent the jerseys to the team and the mistake was pointed out, John Meacom the teams's owner at the time, didn't see the need to re-do the jerseys again just for nine games so he let the team go ahead with them. As you can see in the pic of Billy Kilmer vs Dallas the team didn't even bother to go back to wearing the '67-'68 style socks. They just switched jerseys and went on to play! Also, the team didn't start wearing the NFL 50th Anniversary patch until two weeks after the game versus Dallas. The game against the 49ers on 11-23-69 is when they were placed onto the uniforms.

Hope this helps and yes those jerseys look great!

Excellent research and answer...where'd you get that info?

I found the pic below in the book Saga of the Saints. It's from 10/19/69 and the NFL 50th patch is on the jersey so until I read your explanation, I was totally confused. If I understand you correctly, they started the season in the jerseys below and played 5 games in them, this one against the Colts in Week 5 being the last one. Then they switched to the jerseys shown in the Kilmer pic against the Cowboys, which were supposed to be done with the 'new' gold-white-gold-white-gold stripe but were done backwards (similar to the 1967-68 stripes), and they didn't add the NFL 50th patch until the Week 10 game against the Niners. Then in 1970 they got the stripes corrected to gold-white-gold-white-gold but went back to the ugly pressed on numbers. Correct?

What's weird is that the stripes on the jerseys below aren't like the 1967-68 OR the late '69/1970 stripes. Good grief. Only the Saints.

[darkhaha]

I'm doing a uniform history concept for the Saints on another board and I have researched this topic so here's your answer.

The jerseys in those pics are the ones they wore for the final nine games of the 1969 season. They used the correct color sequence from 1967-68 season which was white/gold/white/gold/white but the order was for a reversal of the color pattern of the '69 stripes which in that year had been switched by using a metallic gold base stripe with two white stripes outlined in black placed on top. When Sand Knit sent the jerseys to the team and the mistake was pointed out, John Meacom the teams's owner at the time, didn't see the need to re-do the jerseys again just for nine games so he let the team go ahead with them. As you can see in the pic of Billy Kilmer vs Dallas the team didn't even bother to go back to wearing the '67-'68 style socks. They just switched jerseys and went on to play! Also, the team didn't start wearing the NFL 50th Anniversary patch until two weeks after the game versus Dallas. The game against the 49ers on 11-23-69 is when they were placed onto the uniforms.

Hope this helps and yes those jerseys look great!

Thanks a million for clearing this up for me!

[robpas]

I don't see any Saints jerseys on the Home Run Derby site....

BTW, thanks for posting those. I'm asking my wife for a Home Run Derby authentic Saints throwback for Christmas and couldn't decide which one to get. I had forgotten that '69 design, which IMO is better looking than the '67-'68 design and it fits perfectly since '69 is the year I attended my first game. I'm going with the '69 version.

[RickV]

Something else that strikes me from that Kilmer picture is how large the front jersey numerals are. Those would be equivalent today of the teams rear jersey numerals.

[darkhaha]

I don't see any Saints jerseys on the Home Run Derby site....

BTW, thanks for posting those. I'm asking my wife for a Home Run Derby authentic Saints throwback for Christmas and couldn't decide which one to get. I had forgotten that '69 design, which IMO is better looking than the '67-'68 design and it fits perfectly since '69 is the year I attended my first game. I'm going with the '69 version.

HR Derby can do just about any jersey you ask them to. I have custom-ordered two jerseys (Broncos 1965-66 home and away shown below) and the results, for the most part, have been fantastic. It can take awhile before they're made, as they have to accumulate enough orders to justify a production run at Southland Athletic, but HR Derby makes the greatest old-school jerseys going IMHO.

I've also bought several jerseys from HR Derby's eBay site. Here are a few of my favorites:

Notice the large front numbers on the Chargers' no. 22 (Dickie Post) jersey -- HR Derby is the only outfit I know of that does details like this correctly!

[bigdub81]

Excellent research and answer...where'd you get that info?

I found the pic below in the book Saga of the Saints. It's from 10/19/69 and the NFL 50th patch is on the jersey so until I read your explanation, I was totally confused. If I understand you correctly, they started the season in the jerseys below and played 5 games in them, this one against the Colts in Week 5 being the last one. Then they switched to the jerseys shown in the Kilmer pic against the Cowboys, which were supposed to be done with the 'new' gold-white-gold-white-gold stripe but were done backwards (similar to the 1967-68 stripes), and they didn't add the NFL 50th patch until the Week 10 game against the Niners. Then in 1970 they got the stripes corrected to gold-white-gold-white-gold but went back to the ugly pressed on numbers. Correct?

What's weird is that the stripes on the jerseys below aren't like the 1967-68 OR the late '69/1970 stripes. Good grief. Only the Saints.

The 1969 jerseys were the first time they started using short sleeves and mesh material. The numbers were screened on plain white on the home black and black on the away. They didn't start using a metallic paint for the stripes until the later part of '69 going into the 1970 season, the early '69 jerseys had the old gold color.

I did an illustration to show you what I meant about their stripes and how they changed them. When I said they put in a reverse order it meant that they reversed the gold to white and white to gold in the stripes but they neglected to eliminate the black ones seperating them which would have made them resemble the original '67-'68 unis.

Now as far as the 50th Anniversary patch, I was told that it didn't go on the uniforms until that game against SF. I'm assuming that since your pic shows otherwise, they didn't add them to the "throwback" jerseys that's in question until that game. It's quite possible that they did wear them on their original '69 set at the begining of the year. I'll find out if I can when we play Atlanta.

[BlueSky]

I don't see any Saints jerseys on the Home Run Derby site....

BTW, thanks for posting those. I'm asking my wife for a Home Run Derby authentic Saints throwback for Christmas and couldn't decide which one to get. I had forgotten that '69 design, which IMO is better looking than the '67-'68 design and it fits perfectly since '69 is the year I attended my first game. I'm going with the '69 version.

Correct, but I e-mailed them and they can make one as a custom job. They even said I could return it if it doesn't fit, I assume because they know there's a market and they'll be able to sell it.

[BlueSky]

Excellent research and answer...where'd you get that info?

I found the pic below in the book Saga of the Saints. It's from 10/19/69 and the NFL 50th patch is on the jersey so until I read your explanation, I was totally confused. If I understand you correctly, they started the season in the jerseys below and played 5 games in them, this one against the Colts in Week 5 being the last one. Then they switched to the jerseys shown in the Kilmer pic against the Cowboys, which were supposed to be done with the 'new' gold-white-gold-white-gold stripe but were done backwards (similar to the 1967-68 stripes), and they didn't add the NFL 50th patch until the Week 10 game against the Niners. Then in 1970 they got the stripes corrected to gold-white-gold-white-gold but went back to the ugly pressed on numbers. Correct?

What's weird is that the stripes on the jerseys below aren't like the 1967-68 OR the late '69/1970 stripes. Good grief. Only the Saints.

The 1969 jerseys were the first time they started using short sleeves and mesh material. The numbers were screened on plain white on the home black and black on the away. They didn't start using a metallic paint for the stripes until the later part of '69 going into the 1970 season, the early '69 jerseys had the old gold color.

I did an illustration to show you what I meant about their stripes and how they changed them. When I said they put in a reverse order it meant that they reversed the gold to white and white to gold in the stripes but they neglected to eliminate the black ones seperating them which would have made them resemble the original '67-'68 unis.

Now as far as the 50th Anniversary patch, I was told that it didn't go on the uniforms until that game against SF. I'm assuming that since your pic shows otherwise, they didn't add them to the "throwback" jerseys that's in question until that game. It's quite possible that they did wear them on their original '69 set at the begining of the year. I'll find out if I can when we play Atlanta.

First a clarification - when I said the stripes weren't the same, I meant the width, not the color (I saw the color reversals). In the '69 pic with the NFL 50th patch, the top, middle, and bottom stripes are noticeably wider than the other two. On the 'new' '69 jerseys, worn for the last 9 games, the stripes are all the same width.

Not same width

Same width

And a question - when you say 'metallic based paint' it obviously sounds like the stripes on the 'wrong' '69 jerseys, like the one Kilmer is wearing in the posed pic above, are screened on as opposed to sewn on (knitted into the sleeve), is that correct, they're screened?

About the patch, my take was that they had them on as required until they got the new jerseys, then just didn't get around to adding them for a few weeks. That would explain the pics showing them with and without the patch in the same season, and I can hardly imagine the NFL letting them go without the patches all season until the S.F. game.

BTW, are you familiar with a place called The Pennant Shop on Metairie Road? Not even sure if it's there any more but I think they did the sewing for the Saints for many years. They did some nameplates for me back in the day. It's funny to think how all the youngsters on the board have no idea how hard it was to find any kind of accurate NFL jersey, even a replica, back in the '70's.

[bigdub81]

And a question - when you say 'metallic based paint' it obviously sounds like the stripes on the 'wrong' '69 jerseys, like the one Kilmer is wearing in the posed pic above, are screened on as opposed to sewn on (knitted into the sleeve), is that correct, they're screened?

The numbers were sewn-on up until 1974 then they were switched to the silk screen style with numerals that had a single outline. In 1983 they switched to the heavier inked numerals with a double outline like the Chargers. In 1996 they switched back to tackle twill two layer numerals til' the present.

About the patch, my take was that they had them on as required until they got the new jerseys, then just didn't get around to adding them for a few weeks. That would explain the pics showing them with and without the patch in the same season, and I can hardly imagine the NFL letting them go without the patches all season until the S.F. game.

That's the only reasonable explination that I can assume at the moment until I find out further but you have to realize that the NFL wasn't as strict on uniform rules back then as they are now. Looking at Kilmer behind the center and the whole o-line is a perfect example having some helmets and pants with reversed color stripes from the rest of the team.

BTW, are you familiar with a place called The Pennant Shop on Metairie Road? Not even sure if it's there any more but I think they did the sewing for the Saints for many years. They did some nameplates for me back in the day. It's funny to think how all the youngsters on the board have no idea how hard it was to find any kind of accurate NFL jersey, even a replica, back in the '70's.

I'm not familiar with the place but somebody on a Saints board mentioned that as well when we were discussing this same subject.

[Gothamite]

I don't see any Saints jerseys on the Home Run Derby site....

BTW, thanks for posting those. I'm asking my wife for a Home Run Derby authentic Saints throwback for Christmas and couldn't decide which one to get. I had forgotten that '69 design, which IMO is better looking than the '67-'68 design and it fits perfectly since '69 is the year I attended my first game. I'm going with the '69 version.

Correct, but I e-mailed them and they can make one as a custom job. They even said I could return it if it doesn't fit, I assume because they know there's a market and they'll be able to sell it.

They're in the process of making me a Don Hutson jersey (entirely on darkhaha's recommendation):

Can't wait.

[BlueSky]

And a question - when you say 'metallic based paint' it obviously sounds like the stripes on the 'wrong' '69 jerseys, like the one Kilmer is wearing in the posed pic above, are screened on as opposed to sewn on (knitted into the sleeve), is that correct, they're screened?

The numbers were sewn-on up until 1974 then they were switched to the silk screen style with numerals that had a single outline. In 1983 they switched to the heavier inked numerals with a double outline like the Chargers. In 1996 they switched back to tackle twill two layer numerals til' the present.

But the '69 w-g-w-g-w stripes, like Kilmer and Abramowicz in the posed pics, were screened on, correct? I'm asking because Home Run Derby doesn't do screening so if those stripes are screened on, it sinks my plan to have them make me a '69 jersey.

Also, I'm certain the numbers were screened as early as 1972. I say that because I had a game-worn '72 jersey and the numbers and stripes were screened (see the first post of my Lost Treasures thread for details).

[darkhaha]

And a question - when you say 'metallic based paint' it obviously sounds like the stripes on the 'wrong' '69 jerseys, like the one Kilmer is wearing in the posed pic above, are screened on as opposed to sewn on (knitted into the sleeve), is that correct, they're screened?

The numbers were sewn-on up until 1974 then they were switched to the silk screen style with numerals that had a single outline. In 1983 they switched to the heavier inked numerals with a double outline like the Chargers. In 1996 they switched back to tackle twill two layer numerals til' the present.

But the '69 w-g-w-g-w stripes, like Kilmer and Abramowicz in the posed pics, were screened on, correct? I'm asking because Home Run Derby doesn't do screening so if those stripes are screened on, it sinks my plan to have them make me a '69 jersey.

Also, I'm certain the numbers were screened as early as 1972. I say that because I had a game-worn '72 jersey and the numbers and stripes were screened (see the first post of my Lost Treasures thread for details).

I can understand your desire to make the jersey as true to the original as possible, but the "built-in" weave done by HR Derby -- actually by Southland Athletic in Dallas, which to my understanding has the only machine still in existence that does this process -- will look WAY better than any screen printing (and I think it's pretty hard to tell from the photos which process was used for the striping, anyway). In combination with the great sewn-on numbers HR Derby does, you would have an outstanding jersey.

If you're a stickler for historical accuracy -- aren't we all around here! -- and you find out the '69 jersey stripes really were screened, I would suggest doing the '66-67 version, which definitely had the built-in stripes. Plus it's really the most classic Saints look ever, IMHO. It's up to you, of course, but I'm more than a disinterested observer, as I'd love to pick up one of these if HR Derby does a run of them.

Also, I think your wife should get you a black one AND a white one!

[BlueSky]

And a question - when you say 'metallic based paint' it obviously sounds like the stripes on the 'wrong' '69 jerseys, like the one Kilmer is wearing in the posed pic above, are screened on as opposed to sewn on (knitted into the sleeve), is that correct, they're screened?

The numbers were sewn-on up until 1974 then they were switched to the silk screen style with numerals that had a single outline. In 1983 they switched to the heavier inked numerals with a double outline like the Chargers. In 1996 they switched back to tackle twill two layer numerals til' the present.

But the '69 w-g-w-g-w stripes, like Kilmer and Abramowicz in the posed pics, were screened on, correct? I'm asking because Home Run Derby doesn't do screening so if those stripes are screened on, it sinks my plan to have them make me a '69 jersey.

Also, I'm certain the numbers were screened as early as 1972. I say that because I had a game-worn '72 jersey and the numbers and stripes were screened (see the first post of my Lost Treasures thread for details).

I can understand your desire to make the jersey as true to the original as possible, but the "built-in" weave done by HR Derby -- actually by Southland Athletic in Dallas, which to my understanding has the only machine still in existence that does this process -- will look WAY better than any screen printing (and I think it's pretty hard to tell from the photos which process was used for the striping, anyway). In combination with the great sewn-on numbers HR Derby does, you would have an outstanding jersey.

If you're a stickler for historical accuracy -- aren't we all around here! -- and you find out the '69 jersey stripes really were screened, I would suggest doing the '66-67 version, which definitely had the built-in stripes. Plus it's really the most classic Saints look ever, IMHO. It's up to you, of course, but I'm more than a disinterested observer, as I'd love to pick up one of these if HR Derby does a run of them.

Also, I think your wife should get you a black one AND a white one!

I'm thinking the same about just going with the '67-'68 jersey. And I might just get both colors eventually because it's murder trying to decide which to get. Both are just beautiful.

Thanks btw for the feedback about Home Run Derby. Without a first-hand opinion from someone who has bought from them, I'd be very reluctant to part with $195 to buy something sight unseen. What's your experience with the size? As I understand it, 52 is an XL and I have an 80's era Saints jersey in that size that fits well; have you found that the HRD jersey sizes run about the same as

modern ones?

Then I have to decide what number...leaning towards 17 for Kilmer but am still undecided.

Here it is in the white. Note the early number font, which I'm definitely going with. That brings up another issue about early Saints jerseys, the mixed fonts. Look at Jim Taylor's vs. #54 in the 2nd pic: