2015 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread

[Sport]

I mean we can all say someone used steroids because they got big. Is that always the case? No. A lot of guys bust their asses to make it to the bigs. Just because you bulk up over 15 years doesn't mean you used steroids. Granted I didn't get into baseball until after Bagwell retired, but I'm sure a lot of guys have gotten swole over the course of their careers without using steroids.

It's more than just how big someone got. When guys went from hitting 15-20 HRs a year to 30-40 out of nowhere, I think it's safe to say something was up. We had exactly one 50 HR season between 1977 and 1991. From 1991 until serious PED testing began, we had over 20. The single season HR record of 61 had stood for 37 years. Then it was exceeded six times in a span of 5 years - four times between 1998 and 2001 alone. You do the math.

Another thing is that there is a distinct difference in the body type between guys who put on muscle the old fashioned way, and guys who put on muscle with the help of steroids. In the late 90's/early 2000's you started to see all these professional wrestlers playing in major league baseball. (See: Ken Caminiti) You don't see that body type in baseball anymore. There are big, strong guys, but they don't have that massive chest/shoulder/bulging neck look that McGwire and others had.

[cajunaggie08]

Now next year's controversy: Ken Griffey Jr's hat, forwards or backwards?

You win.

Speaking of hats, Biggio will be the first person ever to go in the HOF as an Astro. Which of the 3 logos that he wore as an astro will he be sporting on the plaque?

Wow. It's crazy that he's the first, considering the Astros have been around for over 50 years and they've been pretty good for much of it. I agree with Vet that I'd probably think of him in the navy and gold set first, but I think he probably goes in wearing the black cap. He wore the H-star for six seasons, navy and gold for six seasons, and the black set for eight, including the franchises' lone pennant.

Nolan Ryan prob should have gone in as Astro, but there was bad blood between him and the Astros front office at the time so he went in as a Ranger.

[cajunaggie08]

While I'm sure Randy Johnson is going in as a Diamondback, I will always think of him as a Mariner first.

[2001mark]

4x Toronto writers had radio roundtable last night... with some ideas thrown around:

- Pete Rose will be inducted once he is dead. The HOF, HOF players, & everyone else simply do not want Rose benefiting financially from having a plaque- millions upon millions to be made if he went in while alive. He'll be in one day, once he's dead in the ground.

- The 4 of them share the stance that once they vote for a guy one time, they'll keep voting for him until he's in or off. There are enough voters who don't share that principle - even though why (how?!) would you vote a guy HOF worthy one year & then omit him a next... that's insanity.

- Steroid guys, while publicly cooling off, will likely never ever get elected. For starters, it's a known secret that HOF players themselves have declared they'd disown Cooperstown if the Bonds' & Clemens' started being inducted - most writers on the fence don't want to see that happen. Also, Veteran's Committee nods? Try again. By the time these guys are falling off the primary ballot, they'll have aged - as aged as the next crew on the V.C.

No dice.

[Mac the Knife]

4x Toronto writers had radio roundtable last night... with some ideas thrown around:

- Pete Rose will be inducted once he is dead. The HOF, HOF players, & everyone else simply do not want Rose benefiting financially from having a plaque- millions upon millions to be made if he went in while alive. He'll be in one day, once he's dead in the ground.

- The 4 of them share the stance that once they vote for a guy one time, they'll keep voting for him until he's in or off. There are enough voters who don't share that principle - even though why (how?!) would you vote a guy HOF worthy one year & then omit him a next... that's insanity.

- Steroid guys, while publicly cooling off, will likely never ever get elected. For starters, it's a known secret that HOF players themselves have declared they'd disown Cooperstown if the Bonds' & Clemens' started being inducted - most writers on the fence don't want to see that happen. Also, Veteran's Committee nods? Try again. By the time these guys are falling off the primary ballot, they'll have aged - as aged as the next crew on the V.C.

No dice.

The only way Pete Rose will make the HOF is if the HOF changes the rules back to what they were before Rose was banned, or Rob Manfred reinstates him - which honestly would shock me. Rose makes more out of the HOF than he does in it; if not for the controversy surrounding him, he'd be alongside Joe Morgan or Johnny "And You Won't Stink" Bench in earning potential. Instead, he's on a plane all his own, higher than any living HOF'er.

I watched a panel discussion last night talking about how no one would ever be unanimously selected, in part because a voter who felt confident someone would be inducted would leave them off their ballot, using one of their ten slots for someone they thought "could use the vote more." I have absolutely no issue with that. My opinion is that once you've reached the 75% mark, you're in. Whether you get 75.1% or 97.6% doesn't get you in a different wing or anything. So if Player A is a shoo-in and Player B is a guy who came up two votes short last year but is deserving? Feel free.

I used to be convinced that Bonds and Clemens, and possibly McGwire, would ultimately be inducted. But now? I'm starting to become cautiously optimistic that they won't. The HOF vote tracker implied that Bonds/Clemens each would get roughly 50% this year, but when the final tally was in neither got beyond 40% thanks to the old school voters. With 7 years to go, the old school voters won't "die off" in time to make enough of a difference that they'll get past 75%.

[Sport]

- The 4 of them share the stance that once they vote for a guy one time, they'll keep voting for him until he's in or off. There are enough voters who don't share that principle - even though why (how?!) would you vote a guy HOF worthy one year & then omit him a next... that's insanity.

I want to talk about this because this is how I feel. These are the stats these guys are going to have forever. They're not going to find 500 more hits, 100 more homeruns, or 1,000 more strikeouts. Either vote for a guy every single time you present a ballot or never vote for him ever.

I've heard some voters say "well I didn't vote for _______ because I didn't want the ceremony to be too long this year." GO F*** YOURSELF IF THAT'S YOUR ATTITUDE.

If there's a guy who's in his first year of eligibility and you don't vote for him, but then the next year you do, you are the problem.

[The_Admiral]

I've heard some voters say "well I didn't vote for _______ because I didn't want the ceremony to be too long this year." GO F*** YOURSELF IF THAT'S YOUR ATTITUDE.

That or vote for Harold Baines ten times a year.

[BBTV]

- The 4 of them share the stance that once they vote for a guy one time, they'll keep voting for him until he's in or off. There are enough voters who don't share that principle - even though why (how?!) would you vote a guy HOF worthy one year & then omit him a next... that's insanity.

I want to talk about this because this is how I feel. These are the stats these guys are going to have forever. They're not going to find 500 more hits, 100 more homeruns, or 1,000 more strikeouts. Either vote for a guy every single time you present a ballot or never vote for him ever.

I've heard some voters say "well I didn't vote for _______ because I didn't want the ceremony to be too long this year." GO F*** YOURSELF IF THAT'S YOUR ATTITUDE.

If there's a guy who's in his first year of eligibility and you don't vote for him, but then the next year you do, you are the problem.

Read Jason stark's article. He goes over a lot of these things and how/why they happen.

[cmm]

I can see a voter leaving off someone they had voted for in prior years if there are more deserving first-year candidates on the ballot. If someone voted for 8 guys who didn't make it last year but wanted to vote for Pedro, Smoltz, and Johnson this year then they had to drop one of the 8 hold-over guys. It's a product of the ten-vote limit.

[BBTV]

If you really care about who is in the HOF, part of the problem is the sportswriters who think that they actually matter. Those who look at themselves as "protectors" of the game, or those who feel that they need to make a statement, or that there's some reason for them to do anything other than their job, which is to vote for people they think belong in the HOF.

Honestly in 2015, there's no reason for sportswriters to even be involved in the HOF voting. Everyone has seen everyone play. Everyone's games are broadcasted, everyone's highlights are on ESPN, everyone knows most of what a player has been through. The only thing a beat writer might be able to add is that so and so likes to go out and bang chubby girls. Maybe the HOF should just have a board that picks who belongs in.

[2001mark]

re. lack of unanimous players... I've read/heard on several occasions from different sources that there are in fact voters, have always been the case mind you, who simply refuse to allow any baseball player ever the opportunity of being 100%.

The whole idea that these writers view themselves as protectors of the game or whatever is batsiht insane. It's a museum, not an elevator to the heavens.

& btw how do I include someone's post with my reply, they're never attached when I click 'reply' even directly from another post.

[CubsFanBudMan]

Now next year's controversy: Ken Griffey Jr's hat, forwards or backwards?

You win.

Speaking of hats, Biggio will be the first person ever to go in the HOF as an Astro. Which of the 3 logos that he wore as an astro will he be sporting on the plaque?

Wow. It's crazy that he's the first, considering the Astros have been around for over 50 years and they've been pretty good for much of it. I agree with Vet that I'd probably think of him in the navy and gold set first, but I think he probably goes in wearing the black cap. He wore the H-star for six seasons, navy and gold for six seasons, and the black set for eight, including the franchises' lone pennant.

I feel like the Astros were wearing throwbacks in Biggio's last year and he asked to wear them in his final game even though it wasn't the "right" day.

That might inform his cap decision, but it will likely be the H-star because it has returned. Funny that a guy who played for the same team his whole career has a cap decision to make.

He should do like Maddux and go blank.

EDIT: Looks like he wore the red jersey his last game, perhaps by request or perhaps I'm remembering wrong.

Now, if he goes black hat will they put his Sunshine Kids pin on there?

EDIT 2: I really butchered this one, BUT... thankfully the Astros never took down their ticket promotion page for Biggio's final weekend. They wore three different eras of uniforms on the three days:

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/hou/ticketing/biggio_farewell.jsp

[infrared41]

100% of the problem with HOF voting is that 90% of sports writers are idiots. Or maybe it's the other way around.

[The_Admiral]

Well, 90% of everything is crap. I'd support diversifying the general voting to include players if I weren't so certain the players are as stupid as the writers are.

[BBTV]

Maddux isn't having a logo on his cap? That's dumb. He should be in an Atlanta hat.

[cmm]

Yeah, he said he couldn't choose between the Cubs and Braves so he went logoless.

[infrared41]

Well, 90% of everything is crap.

My first thought was to disagree and then provide examples of things that aren't 90% crap. Then I realized I couldn't come up with any examples.

[BBTV]

Yeah, he said he couldn't choose between the Cubs and Braves so he went logoless.

It shouldn't really be his choice. Could he have picked Padres? I mean he should have a say, in case it's a close call, but maybe the *sigh* writers should have to write in the team along with their vote.