Tank stumper 1/9/03

[NJTank]

What was the last NHL team to fold?

[CC97]

The Brooklyn Americans in 1942, when they feld(?) it led to the Original Six years from 1943-1967.

Also, the Cleveland Barons merged with the Minnesota North Stars in 1978, and the Minnesota North Stars 'half-merged' with the San Jose Sharks in 1991.

[CJR]

Would you say the North Stars "half-merged" with the Sharks or the Sharks "half-emerged" from the North Stars?  If you really want to trace things back, you can say the Sharks are the Barons (who were the California Seals before that) because it was the Gunds who owned Cleveland and took over Minnesota as part of the original merger, then took over the Sharks when the NHL "expanded" there.  That makes Minnesota between the merger with Cleveland and the San Jose expansion kind of like AHL Hamilton today.

[yh]

Yzerfan is correct on this issue.  The Gunds wanted to move the Norstars to the Bay Area but the NHL (at the time) did not want the franchise to move and didn't want to take the time to have an "expansion derby" (not that they would have been obligated to do so by law or anything - they just didn't want to upset the folks in Miami, Dallas, Houston, Tampa and Ottawa who were all seeking expansion teams at the time), so they declared that Minnesota technically held two franchise charters and they permitted the Gunds to take one charter and an allotment of players belonging to the Norstar franchise to San Jose and held an allocation draft to fill out the balance of the Sharks' and the Norstars' rosters.  I remember that due to some technicality in the hastily drafted rules (no pun intended) Minnesota "had" to draft Guy Lafleur in order to complete the draft process.  I think they even went so far as to issue a formal statement essentially apologizing for having to do so.

[-kj]

Which is where Norm Green came into the picture as the "big saviour" of North Star hockey, only to turn around and move the team to Dallas a few years later.

Irony, no?

[CC97]

Which is where Norm Green came into the picture as the "big saviour" of North Star hockey, only to turn around and move the team to Dallas a few years later.

Irony, no?

Same thing happened with the Grizzlies and the Expos

[CJR]

So does that mean that the Sharks should have the Barons/Seals history?  Or do they have no history (I believe that's how it is)?

[yh]

Seeing as how the league used the dual charter issue as a strawman in order to appease the Gunds and keep them from moving the Stars, and also given the fact that there are 14 seasons separating the Seals/Barons from the Sharks, I don't think a shared history makes as much sense as say the "new" Ottawa Senators incorporating the history of the first Sens franchise (and I hope they aren't once again headed for history's dustbin).  Maybe Shark Hates Brown can weigh in on whether there's much mention of the Seals as a part of the Sharks' Bay-Area NHL heritage.

Oh, and Mockba, I agree completely with your assessment of the Norm Green deal.  A hypocrite to be sure.  Of course, if Gary Bettman had been NHL commissioner in 1990 we might have had the San Jose Stars and no NHL presence in Texas.  Until Norm Green carpetbagged the Stars, Dallas was tagged as an IHL market.

[Snowcap30]

wut about the devils. they came from colorado which came from kansas

[CC97]

wut about the devils. they came from colorado which came from kansas

Nothing interesting with those shifts... those were just your typical franchise shifts... nothing like the craziness that has become of the...  (ahem)

Minnesota North Stars, (California Seals -> Oakland Seals -> California Golden Seals ->) Cleveland Barons / Minnesota North Stars / (San Jose Sharks / Minnesota North Stars) -> Dallas Stars

[NJTank]

That Selass Barons Stars Sharks mess is baffe3ling, but Chris is right about it being the Ameriks who were evicted form MSG by teh Rangers.

[IronChefShark]

Fourtunately I decided to view this thread, so I could maybe lend an ear. (I dont often view the Tank Stumper threads. Nothing personal just my preference)

those of us who are hardcore hockey fans here in the bay area (most of which are in the south bay unfortunately) are of course well aware of the Seals/Barons/Minnesota Northstar connection with the San Jose Sharks. However there is maybe but a one essay acknowledgement of the Seals/Barons/Northstars franchise on the Sharks website, thus sending a message that the Sharks franchise does not greatly acknowledge thier connection with the former bay area NHL franchise.

another thing that points this out: me and a few other fans were actually talking to some Sharks front office personnel outside the then San Jose Arena after a game, and we asked about a possible TBTC game against LA in which the Sharks would wear the Seals uniforms and the Kings would wear thier purple and yellows. Needless to say, we learned that the Sharks will indeed never don the Seals uniforms for a TBTC game, sighting the reason that the Sharks and Seals are "two completely different franchises" (although as seen above they can legitimately be considered the same franchise)

It is also ironic that we almost got the NHL franchise that we loathe more then any, the Stars. There had to be another connection to the hatred other then that drunk Ed. (sorry chris, I know he's your goalie now, but he is a jackass in every sense of the word)

that is the best to my knowledge anyways. maybe puckguy has some more information on this because I am just as interested in learning more about this subject as most of you are.

[Puckguy14]

As an unofficial Sharks historian, the explanation is correct.  The then NHL president John Ziegler refused the Gunds idea to move the Minnesota North Stars franchise to Oakland.  This was in 1991 when the team was about to have their Cinderella run to the Cup finals.  As a part of the deal with the league because of the fact that the North Stars were one team, the Gunds were to sell the Stars for the rights to the expansion franchise in the Bay Area.  According to the Sharks and the NHL, the "Fierce Fish of Teal Town" are considered a separate team from the North Stars, Barons, and Seals.  

On a side note, the TBTC idea would be awesome!  If you want, have the Sharks (Seals) play either the Kings or the Wild (North Stars)!  One question: despite not recognizing the history of the North Stars, do the Dallas Stars hold the rights to the North Stars name?