Over rated!

[See Red]

I whole heartedly conquer with Brian in Boston and Shiznit1083 .  I couldn't agree with what they've said more.  Pedro will be a hall of famer and can easily be considered a top 5 pitcher in the last Decade -- well, not if you're a Yankees fan.  He should certainly be on that list in front of Roger Clemens.

Look at the stats... in 3 years, Clemens has only had 3 years with an ERA under 3.00, and has had an ERA over 4.00 4 times, having once gottan 4.60.  The rest of the ERA"s have been in the mid-high 3.00's.

But hey, those have gotta be better than Pedro, correct?  Incorrect.

Pedro has never been over 3.70 for an entire season -- with only 3 over 3.00 -- and had a season with 1.79, and one with 1.90... with the rest of his ERA totals being in the low-mid 2.00's.

Um... correct me if I'm wrong... but I think Pedros are better.

[habsfannova]

There is no competition.  WAYNE GRETZKY

Wayne played against the worst goalkeeping generation in a century, with some of the greatest linemates in history, had a minimum of two enforcers on the ice with him at all times.  

Meanwhile, Lemieux had to battle cancer, had about no one on his team for the first 6 years, missed many seasons with injuries, and played through the trap/grab era, and actually has more points per game!

Maurice Richard had to play one of the top 12 goalies in NORTH AMERICA every night!  And he still scored 544 goals when scoring was at it's all time low!  Plus, he could fight and play defense!

I don't think I even have to write a thing after this name: Bob Orr.

Gretz was amazing, but he's definatly not the best player in history.

[yh]

Welcome Habsfan --

While the title "greatest of all time" is hardly a quantifiable title, especially when each generation had its own challenges, Gretzky is clearly among the elite, otherwise more players in his era would have put up the kind of numbers he produced. You make valid arguments for each of the players mentioned. To say Gretzky is overrated as the greatest of all time - yeah, I can see how that might be a debatable point, but clearly his is among the elite few. One thing that I think is less subject to debate is his role as the most important player of all time. He elevated hockey's profile in the US and as a result the sport grew a tremendous amount in the late 80's and early 90's. Of course, this also resulted in labor issues and some would argue a dilution of talent. But for better or worse, hockey would be in much different shape to day without Gretz.

[NJTank]

No way Wayne is the greatest he broke the records with pleanty of room to spare. IN addition those Oiler teams are the best in NHL history, if not for a flukish loss in the 1986 Smythe Finals they would have won 5 straight CUp Easily, and if they satyed together they may have won 10 strtaight Cups especially if you consider the 1994 Rangers who had 6 Oilers on their team.

[habsfannova]

Welcome Habsfan --

While the title "greatest of all time" is hardly a quantifiable title, especially when each generation had its own challenges, Gretzky is clearly among the elite, otherwise more players in his era would have put up the kind of numbers he produced. You make valid arguments for each of the players mentioned. To say Gretzky is overrated as the greatest of all time - yeah, I can see how that might be a debatable point, but clearly his is among the elite few. One thing that I think is less subject to debate is his role as the most important player of all time. He elevated hockey's profile in the US and as a result the sport grew a tremendous amount in the late 80's and early 90's. Of course, this also resulted in labor issues and some would argue a dilution of talent. But for better or worse, hockey would be in much different shape to day without Gretz.

Most definatly agreed.  He did change the game, and his definatly among the ones I listed in the post.  I just believe that Lemeiux and Orr especially are much better qualified.

(And I would say he changed it for the worse!)

I just explained why he got those numbers:  VERY below average goaltending.  And I DID say the Oilers were one of the best teams.

The Oilers would NOT have won 10 straight cups.  That is just absoultly ludicrous.  I might give you 5, but that's "would-have beens".  If I could use those, i could say Montreal would have won 20 cups in a row.  It's a non-issue. Plus, Calgary obviously wanted it more that year, did you see Mike Vernon in that game?  He just stopped 'em dead cold.  It was like the Soviets in 1980:  They just needed to lose at some time.

[Phil]

Wayne played against the worst goalkeeping generation in a century, with some of the greatest linemates in history, had a minimum of two enforcers on the ice with him at all times.

...

Maurice Richard had to play one of the top 12 goalies in NORTH AMERICA every night! And he still scored 544 goals when scoring was at it's all time low! Plus, he could fight and play defense!

That worst goalkeeping generation is bunk IMO. I've watched those Legends of Hockey shows... the goalies in the stand-up days were terrible! They look like Tracy Morgan in the ESPN NHL Hockey commercials.

Sure Gretzky is overrated. Michael Jordan doesn't hold most of basketball's major records, and he's widely considered the best ever... Gretzky holds most every major record, and for that reason he gets my vote.

[habsfannova]

Wayne played against the worst goalkeeping generation in a century, with some of the greatest linemates in history, had a minimum of two enforcers on the ice with him at all times.

...

Maurice Richard had to play one of the top 12 goalies in NORTH AMERICA every night! And he still scored 544 goals when scoring was at it's all time low! Plus, he could fight and play defense!

That worst goalkeeping generation is bunk IMO. I've watched those Legends of Hockey shows... the goalies in the stand-up days were terrible! They look like Tracy Morgan in the ESPN NHL Hockey commercials.

Sure Gretzky is overrated. Michael Jordan doesn't hold most of basketball's major records, and he's widely considered the best ever... Gretzky holds most every major record, and for that reason he gets my vote.

Yeah, well in the 1950's, the scoring was not NEAR the level of the 1980's.  That's the point I meant to convey.