Race and Baseball

[JayJaxon]

I just read this article and it talks about how Torii Hunter is not satisfied with the number of African American players in the league. He says scouts go out and get Dominican or Cuban players and represent them as black because they are cheaper. In my humble opinion, the scouts go get the better players regardless of race. I wanted to post this topic because I wanted to know what others thought about the subject.

I'll post more of my opinion later but I will post this topic with this information. Hunter has always seemed frustrated by the lack of African American players in the majors. He joins a long list of current and retired players that feel the same way. But when he was a free agent he stated that he wanted to play in a city with a large black population like Atlanta or Washington D.C. so he can try to influence more blacks to play baseball. I thought this was really cool (especially if he had signed with Atlanta) But instead he does what everyone else does and followed the money. That is no surprise and I certainly won't knock him for it. But after claiming he was so concerned with the lack of black players and wanting to be an influence to them, he goes to a team that has mostly a middle to upper class white following.

Race is discussed a lot on this board, but I thought I would share my opinion and see what everyone else thought about the race factor in baseball. Is it that big of a deal that blacks are making the choice to play basketball or football? What measures could baseball take to get the level of black players to a more satisfactory level for people like Hunter and Hank Aaron? Let us hear the opinions.

[The_Admiral]

Didn't Torii Hunter do the "ten years from now you'll see no blacks at all" and "Latinos are easier to control" thing like three summers ago?

I don't know what baseball-as-governing-body is supposed to do about the demographic shift. To be honest, it's not just black kids who aren't picking up the bat and glove anymore, it's kids of every color. Little League organizations from coast to coast are struggling to field teams because kids are apparently getting really freakin' indoor and sedentary and fat. Not like lovable-pudgy-catcher-in-kid-movie fat, but like fat-fat where you can't do physical things. Not sure what the numbers are for kids, but Colorado is the only state where less than 20% of the population is obese. 49 out of 50! Man. I kinda figured this was happening, but it wasn't till I saw it in the paper the other day that I realized how bad it's gotten. Now, I came of age in the 1990s, when SNES was a life-consuming pursuit, but even as transfixed as we were, we grade-schoolers with our boundless energy would eventually tire of playing NHL '95 and go outside to play street hockey, or do something, at least. And yeah, I putz around on the computer all day, but I still work out daily too. Now, evidently, there's not that same sort of balance with kids. It doesn't help that schools are reducing or excising gym classes and recesses because it's either too expensive or it's "wasted seat time." We gotta get our kids to do math and science to compete with China...if they're not riddled with adult-onset diabetes and hypertension by age 15.

So to answer your question I don't know. Demographically speaking, it's not really a huge concern to me that black kids aren't playing baseball any more than it is that Jews aren't playing hockey. I don't suppose we can selectively make anyone play baseball; they have to find it for themselves. (I tried but abandoned it when I realized my solitary tool was leaning into pitches to get on base.) As far as I know, baseball has put quite a bit of money into Reviving Baseball in Inner Cities, making the conditions for picking up the game more favorable to urban youth, but if they decide they'd rather play basketball at the park than baseball, then man, I don't know what to tell you.

[JayJaxon]

I do believe Hunter was the one that made that statement about how Latinos are easier to control.

Some of the statements you made are things I didn't even realize myself (like the obesity rate being over 20% in all but one state) and kids being more into the indoors have a lot to do with that. Not only are the kids spending more time on games and computers, but parents are keeping kids indoors a lot too because it's to dangerous out there. When I was a kid in the 90's, my parents would let me go play football or sandlot baseball all day as long I was home for dinner.

The reason I posted this in the first place is because every single year I hear former and current black players complain about the lack of black players in baseball. I often wonder what they are doing about it (other than finding a reporter to voice their opinion to.) It's not like a black kid is gonna go on ESPN.com and decide he is going to start playing baseball because Frank Robinson says he should. Is it complaining for the sake of complaining or is it a real issue? I know a lot of the players like Aaron and Mays feel there should be more black players in the game because Jackie Robinson sacrificed to make it possible for them to play.

The Latin American players are the ones that kinda get verbally bashed when it comes to the comparison and I feel that is unfair. These guys are brought up to play baseball and they are great at it. Why should they get ridiculed because they are great at a sport they love? A lot of Latin American countries take baseball more seriously than Americans, and that is not their fault. If baseball ends up being 70% Latin, it really doesn't bother me. As long as I have a game to go to or watch on TV, I don't care where they come from.

[aci]

He really needs to learn that 'black' and 'African-American' do not mean the same things.

Hunter's rant was pretty baseless. I mean, Vladimir Guerrero is not African-American. After all, he's not American. But he IS black. Black Dominicans got to Hispaniola the same way most American blacks got to America- slavery.

A native to the Dominican Republic isn't black, but Taino or Carib. There aren't a whole hell of a lot of them left, but regardless, blacks and Dominicans aren't all that different.

[The_Admiral]

What's especially galling about this whole thing to me is the way it poisons the well in what I've long felt has become the most color-blind sport. Race still seems to determine which positions you can play in football, and white people domestic and imported alike are a punchline in basketball. Tennis and golf are more about class than race but read between the lines. (Hockey's not even an issue because what few non-whites take it up are often Canadians, and by necessity of a cost-prohibitive sport, middle-class Canadians at that, and as such have generally been treated as fellow human beings throughout their lives, thus it's rather difficult to frame the career of a Dirk Graham or whoever in terms of the civil rights movement or personal/systemic adversity and already I've said too much.) But baseball is supposed to be for everyone. Anyone can play anywhere on the field, anywhere the field may be. It's supposed to transcend all that crap. It's always been a populist sport at the grassroots level, and to some extent in the stands (everyone waxes poetic about how so many types of people would mix at Ebbets Field), but it took a lot of work to achieve this sort of populism at the top, and I'd prefer that we don't have to go through Race Warz here, where the blacks resent the Caribbeans, the Caribbeans resent the Japanese, and Milton Bradley resents everyone. It'd be ten steps back.

[BaltimoreFan]

I'm not sure what Torii Hunter wants MLB to do about it. They already support RBI programs through out America, providing the opportunties to black kids that probably wouldn't exist otherwise. Also the biggest, most marketable star of the 90s was Ken Griffey Jr., he was the face of the game when I was a kid. MLB is certainly doing their part IMO. I think Hunter should be "placing the blame" more on his own people than MLB.

Wasn't their another black baseball player a few years ago that claimed MLB was "discriminating" against black prospects? He essentially said that he knows people in his neighborhood that were much better than the Latino players. But they were never given a chance because they weren't Latino. I think it was a baseball player, but I could be wrong.

[mania]

Hunter's rant was pretty baseless. I mean, Vladimir Guerrero is not African-American. After all, he's not American. But he IS black. Black Dominicans got to Hispaniola the same way most American blacks got to America- slavery.

As of February 19th... yes he is.

[aci]

Hunter's rant was pretty baseless. I mean, Vladimir Guerrero is not African-American. After all, he's not American. But he IS black. Black Dominicans got to Hispaniola the same way most American blacks got to America- slavery.

As of February 19th... yes he is.

In that case, the last loose end is tied up- Vladimir Guerrero is officially an African-American. He's of American citizenship, and is ethnically descended from Africans, so I have to say that Torii's argument is pretty much dead in the water.

[The_Admiral]

You're kind of missing the point. It's not about the semantics of the term "African-American," it's that black people from the Caribbean don't really come from the same cultural experience that black people from the United States do, and as such aren't "real black people" to Hunter. This is nothing new, by the way; blacks originating from the southeastern U.S. had their differences with blacks from Jamaica/Barbados/other British West Indies, usually when it came to angling for jobs up north. Then as now, they were seen as coming from a separate and somewhat preferable culture.

[BlueSky]

You're kind of missing the point. It's not about the semantics of the term "African-American," it's that black people from the Caribbean don't really come from the same cultural experience that black people from the United States do, and as such aren't "real black people" to Hunter. This is nothing new, by the way; blacks originating from the southeastern U.S. had their differences with blacks from Jamaica/Barbados/other British West Indies, usually when it came to angling for jobs up north. Then as now, they were seen as coming from a separate and somewhat preferable culture.

How is anyone other than those who choose to pursue baseball as a career to blame? Years ago, sure, there were surely players with MLB ability who never saw the light of day. I'm not buying it today. There's too much money to be made by agents who will bring a capable player to scouts' attention.

When Torii gets equally upset about the NBA's racial balance, I'll pay attention. I guess it just feels good to blame somebody for whatever you feel is wrong with the world.

[oddball]

There are a few issues here that are being over-looked or at least by me. Of course there are fewer "blacks" playing the game. Why? Because baseball is #3 in the big boy sports behind basketball and football. Both the NFL and NBA have expanded and those are the popular sports for everyone.

The other issue is control. Torri was right, Latinos are easier to control because the big two sports are soccer and basketball and they're probably playing one or the other to get out of their slums, etc. If a kid is from the Dominican and is out there harvesting sugar cane, and then through baseball he's offered a $20,000 contract to play baseball here, he's going to take the money. When a Lationo is playing baseball, they usually stick to that sport and therefor financially they are easier to control because they don't have leverage of another big-time sport or even college to push the money offer up. That's the way I see it.

[BaltimoreFan]

The other issue is control. Torri was right, Latinos are easier to control because the big two sports are soccer and basketball and they're probably playing one or the other to get out of their slums, etc. If a kid is from the Dominican and is out there harvesting sugar cane, and then through baseball he's offered a $20,000 contract to play baseball here, he's going to take the money. When a Lationo is playing baseball, they usually stick to that sport and therefor financially they are easier to control because they don't have leverage of another big-time sport or even college to push the money offer up. That's the way I see it.

I'm not sure if Latino baseball players actually make less on average than American (all American not just blacks) prospects though. I'd really have to see the numbers. American prospects do have the leverage to college or play another sport, but they also lose leverage from that fact that only one team drafts the right to negotiate with them. Latino players have the opportunity for all 30 teams to negoitate with. Stephen Strasburg is considered the top pitching prospect in baseball. He got a record draft contract of $15.1 million. Aroldis Chapman was considered the top international pitching prospect, but I don't think he's considered to be in Strasburg's league. Yet he got $30.25 million, almost twice as much as a prospect considered to be better. These two are the extreme cases so you can't really judge it by them. Thats why you'd need to see the average salaries. I wouldn't be surprised though if they were pretty close.

[oddball]

Balti fan, I don't disagree with the average salary, but when teams can sign a boatload of 16 year olds and keep them in the Dominican for two years to develop them and take the best, it's a wise investment. Chapman and players like him are rare, most are signed for bargin basement at age 16, where as here 16 year olds can't even talk to teams and end up costing them more initially. It's a better business model to sign 20 Latin players at 16 and hope a couple work out than it is to sign 4 high school or college kids that will cost you more money.

[BaltimoreFan]

Balti fan, I don't disagree with the average salary, but when teams can sign a boatload of 16 year olds and keep them in the Dominican for two years to develop them and take the best, it's a wise investment. Chapman and players like him are rare, most are signed for bargin basement at age 16, where as here 16 year olds can't even talk to teams and end up costing them more initially. It's a better business model to sign 20 Latin players at 16 and hope a couple work out than it is to sign 4 high school or college kids that will cost you more money.

I wasn't saying your wrong, I was just saying it may not be the case. I'm just saying I'd like to see alot more info. There are alot of bargain 16 year olds, but I've seen a few that sign for quite a bit (off the top of my head Miguel Sano signed for $3.15 million, probably would have gotten more if it wasn't for questions about his true age). I think both types of prospects have their advantages and disadvantages cost wise. I also think it is somewhat unfair to compare the two since Latino players is one set and black players would be a subset of the American set of prospects. If black players had their own "prospect market" it would be worth arguing.

Does anyone have or know of a site that provides sort of a database of international prospect signings? I've often wanted to see how many big name big money Latin prospects have fared vs. the no name small money prospects.

[scottysprings]

This is a very interesting topic of conversation for sure. To be honest I don't really have my head wrapped around it all, lots to consider, but I do believe from the business standpoint the MLB has an interest in better marketing and player development for the black youth in America.

[dfwabel]

There are many issues here, so that is why I waited a day to reply.

1-Torii said the same theme three years ago as "Jayjackson" and "admiral" alluded to.

2-I am near the same age as Torii, and played baseball as a youth, but I was a minority who happened to live in the country where we had bad baseball fields. In reality, most city center just have greenspace for parks, and not backstops and an infield to play. It is more cost effective for the city to have a blacktops which they do not have to cut/seed/repair than a greenspace for baseball or soccer. They will more likely have to light a greenspace over a court. There is a cost for that.

Now, there is also an inner city issue with soccer/baseball vs. basketball from parents as well (Latinos vs. Latinos/Blacks).

It is not the real responsibility of MLB to assist the debts of cities.

[OnWis97]

There are many issues here, so that is why I waited a day to reply.

1-Torii said the same theme three years ago as "Jayjackson" and "admiral" alluded to.

2-I am near the same age as Torii, and played baseball as a youth, but I was a minority who happened to live in the country where we had bad baseball fields. In reality, most city center just have greenspace for parks, and not backstops and an infield to play. It is more cost effective for the city to have a blacktops which they do not have to cut/seed/repair than a greenspace for baseball or soccer. They will more likely have to light a greenspace over a court. There is a cost for that.

Now, there is also an inner city issue with soccer/baseball vs. basketball from parents as well (Latinos vs. Latinos/Blacks).

It is not the real responsibility of MLB to assist the debts of cities.

Except maybe the ones that sprung for their ballparks.

Because of the Latino population, I have to suspect that the proportion of AMERICAN-BORN players that are black is not too far off of the proportion of US population that is black. To whatever extent it is below are probably some of the reasons already mentioned...cultural preference to basketball and football, more blacktop than backstops, etc.

If Hunter wants to try to get black kids into baseball, that's cool, but I don't have a good feel for what he's upset about (or who he's upset at).

[JayJaxon]

I would also like to know exactly who Hunter is upset at. There are plenty of people in this World that don't mind complaining about something but very few of them set out to do something about it. What does Hunter want to do to solve the problem?

[Saintsfan]

Its interesting to think about how many of the star players in the MLB have ever been African American and how that number has begun to dwindle again in the last 10 years. But then you have to consider is that racism on the part of MLB clubs, or a more cultural decision by African Americans not to pursue playing Baseball. I would not entirely agree with Hunter that it is necessarily racism on the part of the MLB. But at the same time, the MLB could look into why it seems to be happening, and if there is anything they can do to encourage more African Americans to pursue a Baseball career.

[JayJaxon]

Honestly I think the answer is simpler than Hunter and MLB want to admit. Basketball and Football.