Cavaliers To Alter Uniforms For Next Season

[crashcarson15]

Six pages of this whole "how do you not understand Cleveland" thing is really starting to pain my ass. Cleveland does not transcend comprehension. It's goddamn Cleveland, the most mundane place in the country. Now more than ever I hope LeBron James bails and leaves you guys with nothing but five thousand jerseys and your dicks in your hands.

THANK YOU!

For the love of God, you would think by the way some people are talking Cleveland is the new Jerusalem.

Six pages of this whole "how do you not understand Cleveland" thing is really starting to pain my ass. Cleveland does not transcend comprehension. It's goddamn Cleveland, the most mundane place in the country. Now more than ever I hope LeBron James bails and leaves you guys with nothing but five thousand jerseys and your dicks in your hands.

It pains my ass that people refuse to understand and accept what the Cavs are doing.

I have to accept what the Cavs are doing? No, I don't. This is a sports uniform and logo message board. I come here primarily to discuss, surprise surprise, sports logos and uniforms. In that context what the Cavs are doing, to me, is unacceptable. They're flushing any semblance of establishing a good looking brand to make a quick buck. The primary, and very nice looking, identity is being marginalized with inferior throwbacks and uniforms that don't even qualify as throwbacks. So no, I don't have to accept anything.

In fact I don't even "understand" it. All of this "they need to make a profit" talk is bull. The team's not going to fold or move if they attempt to actually build a brand and stop trotting out the throwbacks and fashion jerseys.

It pains my ass that people refuse to admit its a smart business move in the current economy, climate, and state of the team (everything hinging on LeBron).

Again, it doesn't. The team's not one throwback/CavsFanatic uniform away from moving. Get over yourselves already.

It pains my ass that people refuse to understand that every city IS ACTUALLY different. So when someone says this is what happens in Cleveland - or any other city for that matter - it doesn't mean they are better, they are just stating what happens.

Dear Lord. Look, every community is unique. No one's arguing that Cleveland doesn't have its own thing going on, every city does. Cleveland is NOT, however, some community that transcends understanding.

First you brought this up when you claimed Cleveland had a relationship with its football team that other cities "wouldn't understand." Now you're claiming the Cavaliers do things that fans in other cities "wouldn't understand." It's a lame argument, it reeks of an unwarranted sense of self importance, and it needs to stop.

Look prior to this whole thing I would have considered the Cavs my number 2 NBA team (as far as I accept the notion of a "second team" anyway). LeBron's single handedly getting me interested in the NBA again and, lets face it, the primaries are pretty spiffy. Now though? You Cleveland exceptionalists have driven me away from the whole thing. I'm now going to root for the Bobcats. That's right, you people have driven me to rooting for the Charlotte Bobcats.

It pains my ass that people would rather stomp their feet rather than try and understand what people are telling them.

I've heard what you and others convinced of your city's awesomeness have told me. I reject it though. I reject the notion that the team needs five alternate uniforms or else they'll leave. I reject the notion that making a quick buck on CavsFanatic jerseys today is a better decision then building a long-term successful identity. I reject the notion that Cleveland is a community that transcends the comprehension of "outsiders."

.

NO ONE is saying Cleveland is Jerusalem, or New York, or LA, of Chicago. Not even close. So i find it hilarious that you guys have your heads so far up your own... that you can't understand that we are just defending where we are from. Its where i grew up and i love the city... just like you guys love your cities. Not once have i said or even acted like i am better or the city is better. Again, you guys are to arrogant to understand that. Its one of those things where... i show respect to other people's cities, and i just expect that back. maybe foolish of me (as you guys have shown) but i didn't know respect was such a taboo term here.

The fact that you can't understand why they are doing it and accept why they are doing is pathetic. If you can't understand it, you need to have your mother explain to you how dollars and cents work. its a business. The majority of people buying Cavs merch don't give two :censored:s what the identity is. They just care is has James on the back. The fact that you guys cant "understand" and "accept" that is, well, sad.

The multiple jersey sales are a smart business move in the current climate. Sorry... but again, maybe someone needs to help you understand economics a bit more. There is nothing to get over. I am stating why they are doing it, and why it is a SMART BUSINESS move.

As for the Cleveland Browns argument... all you have to do is look at the history of the franchise and how the NFL has embraced that Dawg Pound identity. Whether you want to recognize it or not, the NFL has, and it is the only franchise that can say that.

I do think the current uniforms are very nice... except for the neutered C and the over exposed and pretentious blue alternates. Like i have said... numerous times... my ideal team would have 3 uniforms. home, away, and alt worn on second night of back to back and on Sundays.

They have completely diluted the identity... i 100% agree. Not once have i said they have strengthened it. All i am saying is... from a business stand point, it is a smart move... if you can't come to grips with that, then you are out of touch with reality. Side note: I do like the Bobcats new uniforms.

Umm... no where have i said we transcend any other fan or community or team or sport. Never have i said that the team will move if they dont have 5 uniforms. Never. Ever. What i said was... the Cavs are a small market team, with a top 5 payroll in the league (Boston, LA, Dallas, and NY are ahead). The reason they take on a large payroll is to keep LeBron happy. The reason they want to keep LeBron happy is because he is one of the top 3 players in the league (not to mention, look how much he has exposed the Cavalier brand around the country and the world. Look at what he has done for the franchise i.e. ticket sales, merch sales, as well as 2 Central Champs and ECF Champs). Ownership understands if you dont keep LeBron happy, he will leave the team. If LeBron leave the team, they lose money. Now i don't see ANYONE just chomping at the bit to lose millions of dollars... do you?

By posting the video... its one of those things where, we get it, we know its a slum. A lot of people are so quick to point out its a slum, but when we take pride in it, we get dismantled for it. Honestly, its like watching a group of 8th grade girls scream and claw at eachother.

No where have i said Cleveland is better than anyone or anything. I am just saying... the multiple uniforms are a smart business move in the current economy and climate of the team. If you can't admit that, then you are being intentionally ignorant... and then there is no point in trying to get the point across because regardless of what is presented, you will refuse to accept it.

Please just shut the up. You're accomplishing nothing here. I don't know a single person who bought a CavsFanatic jersey anyways.

[ESTONES6]

Six pages of this whole "how do you not understand Cleveland" thing is really starting to pain my ass. Cleveland does not transcend comprehension. It's goddamn Cleveland, the most mundane place in the country. Now more than ever I hope LeBron James bails and leaves you guys with nothing but five thousand jerseys and your dicks in your hands.

THANK YOU!

For the love of God, you would think by the way some people are talking Cleveland is the new Jerusalem.

Six pages of this whole "how do you not understand Cleveland" thing is really starting to pain my ass. Cleveland does not transcend comprehension. It's goddamn Cleveland, the most mundane place in the country. Now more than ever I hope LeBron James bails and leaves you guys with nothing but five thousand jerseys and your dicks in your hands.

It pains my ass that people refuse to understand and accept what the Cavs are doing.

I have to accept what the Cavs are doing? No, I don't. This is a sports uniform and logo message board. I come here primarily to discuss, surprise surprise, sports logos and uniforms. In that context what the Cavs are doing, to me, is unacceptable. They're flushing any semblance of establishing a good looking brand to make a quick buck. The primary, and very nice looking, identity is being marginalized with inferior throwbacks and uniforms that don't even qualify as throwbacks. So no, I don't have to accept anything.

In fact I don't even "understand" it. All of this "they need to make a profit" talk is bull. The team's not going to fold or move if they attempt to actually build a brand and stop trotting out the throwbacks and fashion jerseys.

It pains my ass that people refuse to admit its a smart business move in the current economy, climate, and state of the team (everything hinging on LeBron).

Again, it doesn't. The team's not one throwback/CavsFanatic uniform away from moving. Get over yourselves already.

It pains my ass that people refuse to understand that every city IS ACTUALLY different. So when someone says this is what happens in Cleveland - or any other city for that matter - it doesn't mean they are better, they are just stating what happens.

Dear Lord. Look, every community is unique. No one's arguing that Cleveland doesn't have its own thing going on, every city does. Cleveland is NOT, however, some community that transcends understanding.

First you brought this up when you claimed Cleveland had a relationship with its football team that other cities "wouldn't understand." Now you're claiming the Cavaliers do things that fans in other cities "wouldn't understand." It's a lame argument, it reeks of an unwarranted sense of self importance, and it needs to stop.

Look prior to this whole thing I would have considered the Cavs my number 2 NBA team (as far as I accept the notion of a "second team" anyway). LeBron's single handedly getting me interested in the NBA again and, lets face it, the primaries are pretty spiffy. Now though? You Cleveland exceptionalists have driven me away from the whole thing. I'm now going to root for the Bobcats. That's right, you people have driven me to rooting for the Charlotte Bobcats.

It pains my ass that people would rather stomp their feet rather than try and understand what people are telling them.

I've heard what you and others convinced of your city's awesomeness have told me. I reject it though. I reject the notion that the team needs five alternate uniforms or else they'll leave. I reject the notion that making a quick buck on CavsFanatic jerseys today is a better decision then building a long-term successful identity. I reject the notion that Cleveland is a community that transcends the comprehension of "outsiders."

.

NO ONE is saying Cleveland is Jerusalem, or New York, or LA, of Chicago. Not even close. So i find it hilarious that you guys have your heads so far up your own... that you can't understand that we are just defending where we are from. Its where i grew up and i love the city... just like you guys love your cities. Not once have i said or even acted like i am better or the city is better. Again, you guys are to arrogant to understand that. Its one of those things where... i show respect to other people's cities, and i just expect that back. maybe foolish of me (as you guys have shown) but i didn't know respect was such a taboo term here.

The fact that you can't understand why they are doing it and accept why they are doing is pathetic. If you can't understand it, you need to have your mother explain to you how dollars and cents work. its a business. The majority of people buying Cavs merch don't give two :censored:s what the identity is. They just care is has James on the back. The fact that you guys cant "understand" and "accept" that is, well, sad.

The multiple jersey sales are a smart business move in the current climate. Sorry... but again, maybe someone needs to help you understand economics a bit more. There is nothing to get over. I am stating why they are doing it, and why it is a SMART BUSINESS move.

As for the Cleveland Browns argument... all you have to do is look at the history of the franchise and how the NFL has embraced that Dawg Pound identity. Whether you want to recognize it or not, the NFL has, and it is the only franchise that can say that.

I do think the current uniforms are very nice... except for the neutered C and the over exposed and pretentious blue alternates. Like i have said... numerous times... my ideal team would have 3 uniforms. home, away, and alt worn on second night of back to back and on Sundays.

They have completely diluted the identity... i 100% agree. Not once have i said they have strengthened it. All i am saying is... from a business stand point, it is a smart move... if you can't come to grips with that, then you are out of touch with reality. Side note: I do like the Bobcats new uniforms.

Umm... no where have i said we transcend any other fan or community or team or sport. Never have i said that the team will move if they dont have 5 uniforms. Never. Ever. What i said was... the Cavs are a small market team, with a top 5 payroll in the league (Boston, LA, Dallas, and NY are ahead). The reason they take on a large payroll is to keep LeBron happy. The reason they want to keep LeBron happy is because he is one of the top 3 players in the league (not to mention, look how much he has exposed the Cavalier brand around the country and the world. Look at what he has done for the franchise i.e. ticket sales, merch sales, as well as 2 Central Champs and ECF Champs). Ownership understands if you dont keep LeBron happy, he will leave the team. If LeBron leave the team, they lose money. Now i don't see ANYONE just chomping at the bit to lose millions of dollars... do you?

By posting the video... its one of those things where, we get it, we know its a slum. A lot of people are so quick to point out its a slum, but when we take pride in it, we get dismantled for it. Honestly, its like watching a group of 8th grade girls scream and claw at eachother.

No where have i said Cleveland is better than anyone or anything. I am just saying... the multiple uniforms are a smart business move in the current economy and climate of the team. If you can't admit that, then you are being intentionally ignorant... and then there is no point in trying to get the point across because regardless of what is presented, you will refuse to accept it.

Please just shut the up. You're accomplishing nothing here. I don't know a single person who bought a CavsFanatic jersey anyways.

You or I may not know of anyone... but you turn on a game and you see plenty of them. Whether we like it or not, they sell.

[andrewharrington]

I've heard what you and others convinced of your city's awesomeness have told me. I reject it though. I reject the notion that the team needs five alternate uniforms or else they'll leave. I reject the notion that making a quick buck on CavsFanatic jerseys today is a better decision then building a long-term successful identity. I reject the notion that Cleveland is a community that transcends the comprehension of "outsiders."

I think you're misinterpreting a little bit. It's more the city's lack of awesomeness that drives the Cavaliers to do what they do. The only reason there are people in the seats is because they are damn good. The only reason they are damn good is because they spend a lot of money on players. The only reason they can spend a lot of money is because they sell a lot of stuff. Finally, the only reason they sell a lot of stuff is because they always have new stuff to sell that people want to buy.

I don't think Cleveland transcends comprehension. It has its quirks, but is largely similar to lots of places, The problem is that you're looking at it from a viewpoint that's (no offense) completely naive and pragmatic. The way you see it, the Cavs have a good identity, so why not build on it for the long haul? Makes perfect sense... in Marketing 101. However, this is not Marketing 101. This is the real world, and the real world is not predetermined by a textbook with multiple answer choices. Dismissing all this information I'm trying to communicate about Cleveland, the Cavs and their fans because you think it's independent of their brand and should have no bearing on the way the Cavs operate from a marketing standpoint is just ignorant.

I'm telling you what I know for a reason; to give you a better perspective of the city and how the team is perceived within it. The purpose being to help you see that there might be more to it than, "The Cavs need to stick to their good identity because I'm a sports design nerd and I think it looks good. They're never going to be as good as the Celtics if they keep changing their identity." The Cavs have had 9 different uniform sets and 4 different identities in 40 seasons. They've been on a revolving door from the beginning, and that tells me it's more a product of the environment (lack of prolonged fan interest combined with a dreadful, shrinking economy) than the result of one, or a series of maverick ownership groups.

It's fine if you want to reject everything I told you because it doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint (because I'll admit, it doesn't), but don't tell me I'm wrong about it or I don't know what I'm talking about. I do have a better point of reference on the subject than you do, and that part's not debatable.

[IceCap]

Six pages of this whole "how do you not understand Cleveland" thing is really starting to pain my ass. Cleveland does not transcend comprehension. It's goddamn Cleveland, the most mundane place in the country. Now more than ever I hope LeBron James bails and leaves you guys with nothing but five thousand jerseys and your dicks in your hands.

THANK YOU!

For the love of God, you would think by the way some people are talking Cleveland is the new Jerusalem.

Six pages of this whole "how do you not understand Cleveland" thing is really starting to pain my ass. Cleveland does not transcend comprehension. It's goddamn Cleveland, the most mundane place in the country. Now more than ever I hope LeBron James bails and leaves you guys with nothing but five thousand jerseys and your dicks in your hands.

It pains my ass that people refuse to understand and accept what the Cavs are doing.

I have to accept what the Cavs are doing? No, I don't. This is a sports uniform and logo message board. I come here primarily to discuss, surprise surprise, sports logos and uniforms. In that context what the Cavs are doing, to me, is unacceptable. They're flushing any semblance of establishing a good looking brand to make a quick buck. The primary, and very nice looking, identity is being marginalized with inferior throwbacks and uniforms that don't even qualify as throwbacks. So no, I don't have to accept anything.

In fact I don't even "understand" it. All of this "they need to make a profit" talk is bull. The team's not going to fold or move if they attempt to actually build a brand and stop trotting out the throwbacks and fashion jerseys.

It pains my ass that people refuse to admit its a smart business move in the current economy, climate, and state of the team (everything hinging on LeBron).

Again, it doesn't. The team's not one throwback/CavsFanatic uniform away from moving. Get over yourselves already.

It pains my ass that people refuse to understand that every city IS ACTUALLY different. So when someone says this is what happens in Cleveland - or any other city for that matter - it doesn't mean they are better, they are just stating what happens.

Dear Lord. Look, every community is unique. No one's arguing that Cleveland doesn't have its own thing going on, every city does. Cleveland is NOT, however, some community that transcends understanding.

First you brought this up when you claimed Cleveland had a relationship with its football team that other cities "wouldn't understand." Now you're claiming the Cavaliers do things that fans in other cities "wouldn't understand." It's a lame argument, it reeks of an unwarranted sense of self importance, and it needs to stop.

Look prior to this whole thing I would have considered the Cavs my number 2 NBA team (as far as I accept the notion of a "second team" anyway). LeBron's single handedly getting me interested in the NBA again and, lets face it, the primaries are pretty spiffy. Now though? You Cleveland exceptionalists have driven me away from the whole thing. I'm now going to root for the Bobcats. That's right, you people have driven me to rooting for the Charlotte Bobcats.

It pains my ass that people would rather stomp their feet rather than try and understand what people are telling them.

I've heard what you and others convinced of your city's awesomeness have told me. I reject it though. I reject the notion that the team needs five alternate uniforms or else they'll leave. I reject the notion that making a quick buck on CavsFanatic jerseys today is a better decision then building a long-term successful identity. I reject the notion that Cleveland is a community that transcends the comprehension of "outsiders."

.

NO ONE is saying Cleveland is Jerusalem, or New York, or LA, of Chicago. Not even close. So i find it hilarious that you guys have your heads so far up your own... that you can't understand that we are just defending where we are from. Its where i grew up and i love the city... just like you guys love your cities. Not once have i said or even acted like i am better or the city is better. Again, you guys are to arrogant to understand that. Its one of those things where... i show respect to other people's cities, and i just expect that back. maybe foolish of me (as you guys have shown) but i didn't know respect was such a taboo term here.

The fact that you can't understand why they are doing it and accept why they are doing is pathetic. If you can't understand it, you need to have your mother explain to you how dollars and cents work. its a business. The majority of people buying Cavs merch don't give two :censored:s what the identity is. They just care is has James on the back. The fact that you guys cant "understand" and "accept" that is, well, sad.

The multiple jersey sales are a smart business move in the current climate. Sorry... but again, maybe someone needs to help you understand economics a bit more. There is nothing to get over. I am stating why they are doing it, and why it is a SMART BUSINESS move.

As for the Cleveland Browns argument... all you have to do is look at the history of the franchise and how the NFL has embraced that Dawg Pound identity. Whether you want to recognize it or not, the NFL has, and it is the only franchise that can say that.

I do think the current uniforms are very nice... except for the neutered C and the over exposed and pretentious blue alternates. Like i have said... numerous times... my ideal team would have 3 uniforms. home, away, and alt worn on second night of back to back and on Sundays.

They have completely diluted the identity... i 100% agree. Not once have i said they have strengthened it. All i am saying is... from a business stand point, it is a smart move... if you can't come to grips with that, then you are out of touch with reality. Side note: I do like the Bobcats new uniforms.

Umm... no where have i said we transcend any other fan or community or team or sport. Never have i said that the team will move if they dont have 5 uniforms. Never. Ever. What i said was... the Cavs are a small market team, with a top 5 payroll in the league (Boston, LA, Dallas, and NY are ahead). The reason they take on a large payroll is to keep LeBron happy. The reason they want to keep LeBron happy is because he is one of the top 3 players in the league (not to mention, look how much he has exposed the Cavalier brand around the country and the world. Look at what he has done for the franchise i.e. ticket sales, merch sales, as well as 2 Central Champs and ECF Champs). Ownership understands if you dont keep LeBron happy, he will leave the team. If LeBron leave the team, they lose money. Now i don't see ANYONE just chomping at the bit to lose millions of dollars... do you?

By posting the video... its one of those things where, we get it, we know its a slum. A lot of people are so quick to point out its a slum, but when we take pride in it, we get dismantled for it. Honestly, its like watching a group of 8th grade girls scream and claw at eachother.

No where have i said Cleveland is better than anyone or anything. I am just saying... the multiple uniforms are a smart business move in the current economy and climate of the team. If you can't admit that, then you are being intentionally ignorant... and then there is no point in trying to get the point across because regardless of what is presented, you will refuse to accept it.

These posts are why I love the internet.

[IceCap]

Anyway, quick thanks to andy for replying in a not-YOUSUCKBECAUSEYOUDONTAGREEWITHME manner.

I think you're misinterpreting a little bit. It's more the city's lack of awesomeness that drives the Cavaliers to do what they do. The only reason there are people in the seats is because they are damn good. The only reason they are damn good is because they spend a lot of money on players. The only reason they can spend a lot of money is because they sell a lot of stuff. Finally, the only reason they sell a lot of stuff is because they always have new stuff to sell that people want to buy.

I didn't mean to lump you in with the Cleveland exceptionalist crowd. That was more aimed at ESTONES6 and his "Cleveland is different and you wouldn't understand attitude."

I don't think Cleveland transcends comprehension. It has its quirks, but is largely similar to lots of places, The problem is that you're looking at it from a viewpoint that's (no offense) completely naive and pragmatic. The way you see it, the Cavs have a good identity, so why not build on it for the long haul? Makes perfect sense... in Marketing 101. However, this is not Marketing 101. This is the real world, and the real world is not predetermined by a textbook with multiple answer choices. Dismissing all this information I'm trying to communicate about Cleveland, the Cavs and their fans because you think it's independent of their brand and should have no bearing on the way the Cavs operate from a marketing standpoint is just ignorant.

I admit to being naive when it comes to sports uniforms and logos. If it were up to me each (professional team at least) would try to build an established brand from the get-go and not fall victim to the flavour of the month of whenever they happened to begin play or alter a uniform.

For the Cavs, I get that they need to sell merchandise, but I still have a few problems with it.

Do they necessarily have to wear the uniforms to sell them? I'm sure they would still sell a good deal of throwback jerseys even if the team never wears them. Even then, though, I'm willing to give them slack on throwbacks. They may over-do it, but at least the uniforms mean something (honouring a portion of team history). The CavsFanatic jerseys cross that line though. They're meaningless fashion jerseys. I can grudgingly accept the throwbacks. The CavsFanatic jerseys though? Not so much.

I'm telling you what I know for a reason; to give you a better perspective of the city and how the team is perceived within it. The purpose being to help you see that there might be more to it than, "The Cavs need to stick to their good identity because I'm a sports design nerd and I think it looks good. They're never going to be as good as the Celtics if they keep changing their identity." The Cavs have had 9 different uniform sets and 4 different identities in 40 seasons. They've been on a revolving door from the beginning, and that tells me it's more a product of the environment (lack of prolonged fan interest combined with a dreadful, shrinking economy) than the result of one, or a series of maverick ownership groups.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I appreciate it that you're doing it in a manner that doesn't take the form of "CLEVELAND'S SPECIAL!"

Part of the reason why I hate to see the Cavs dilute their brand so much is because they've been a revolving door of design. So I see them finally hit something that works, and I want them to stick with it and try and establish a solid identity. Sort of like if the Vancouver Canucks finally go with a Johnny Canuck primary.

So I see this team finally hit something that works, and I want them to stick with it, rather then dilute it. If that's not economically viable, then sure, bring on the throwbacks, but please, draw the line at the CavsFanatic fashion jerseys. Those are just blatant.

It's fine if you want to reject everything I told you because it doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint (because I'll admit, it doesn't), but don't tell me I'm wrong about it or I don't know what I'm talking about. I do have a better point of reference on the subject than you do, and that part's not debatable.

Again, if my last post came off as being harsh towards you, that wasn't the intent. It was directed at the "outsiders don't understand Cleveland" posts coming from ESTONES6.

Maybe I am being naive concerning the Cavs and their identity. And I do grant that living in the area in question does provide you with a closer knowledge of the situation. What I'm rallying against here isn't that, but the notion that Cleveland is a place that you can only "get" if you live there. Which isn't a rant directed towards you.

[ESTONES6]

Anyway, quick thanks to andy for replying in a not-YOUSUCKBECAUSEYOUDONTAGREEWITHME manner.

I think you're misinterpreting a little bit. It's more the city's lack of awesomeness that drives the Cavaliers to do what they do. The only reason there are people in the seats is because they are damn good. The only reason they are damn good is because they spend a lot of money on players. The only reason they can spend a lot of money is because they sell a lot of stuff. Finally, the only reason they sell a lot of stuff is because they always have new stuff to sell that people want to buy.

I didn't mean to lump you in with the Cleveland exceptionalist crowd. That was more aimed at ESTONES6 and his "Cleveland is different and you wouldn't understand attitude."

I don't think Cleveland transcends comprehension. It has its quirks, but is largely similar to lots of places, The problem is that you're looking at it from a viewpoint that's (no offense) completely naive and pragmatic. The way you see it, the Cavs have a good identity, so why not build on it for the long haul? Makes perfect sense... in Marketing 101. However, this is not Marketing 101. This is the real world, and the real world is not predetermined by a textbook with multiple answer choices. Dismissing all this information I'm trying to communicate about Cleveland, the Cavs and their fans because you think it's independent of their brand and should have no bearing on the way the Cavs operate from a marketing standpoint is just ignorant.

I admit to being naive when it comes to sports uniforms and logos. If it were up to me each (professional team at least) would try to build an established brand from the get-go and not fall victim to the flavour of the month of whenever they happened to begin play or alter a uniform.

For the Cavs, I get that they need to sell merchandise, but I still have a few problems with it.

Do they necessarily have to wear the uniforms to sell them? I'm sure they would still sell a good deal of throwback jerseys even if the team never wears them. Even then, though, I'm willing to give them slack on throwbacks. They may over-do it, but at least the uniforms mean something (honouring a portion of team history). The CavsFanatic jerseys cross that line though. They're meaningless fashion jerseys. I can grudgingly accept the throwbacks. The CavsFanatic jerseys though? Not so much.

I'm telling you what I know for a reason; to give you a better perspective of the city and how the team is perceived within it. The purpose being to help you see that there might be more to it than, "The Cavs need to stick to their good identity because I'm a sports design nerd and I think it looks good. They're never going to be as good as the Celtics if they keep changing their identity." The Cavs have had 9 different uniform sets and 4 different identities in 40 seasons. They've been on a revolving door from the beginning, and that tells me it's more a product of the environment (lack of prolonged fan interest combined with a dreadful, shrinking economy) than the result of one, or a series of maverick ownership groups.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I appreciate it that you're doing it in a manner that doesn't take the form of "CLEVELAND'S SPECIAL!"

Part of the reason why I hate to see the Cavs dilute their brand so much is because they've been a revolving door of design. So I see them finally hit something that works, and I want them to stick with it and try and establish a solid identity. Sort of like if the Vancouver Canucks finally go with a Johnny Canuck primary.

So I see this team finally hit something that works, and I want them to stick with it, rather then dilute it. If that's not economically viable, then sure, bring on the throwbacks, but please, draw the line at the CavsFanatic fashion jerseys. Those are just blatant.

It's fine if you want to reject everything I told you because it doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint (because I'll admit, it doesn't), but don't tell me I'm wrong about it or I don't know what I'm talking about. I do have a better point of reference on the subject than you do, and that part's not debatable.

Again, if my last post came off as being harsh towards you, that wasn't the intent. It was directed at the "outsiders don't understand Cleveland" posts coming from ESTONES6.

Maybe I am being naive concerning the Cavs and their identity. And I do grant that living in the area in question does provide you with a closer knowledge of the situation. What I'm rallying against here isn't that, but the notion that Cleveland is a place that you can only "get" if you live there. Which isn't a rant directed towards you.

And here is where I start to get pissed off. Nowhere am I saying the outsiders don't understand... yet you still use that argument. Are you even reading my rebuttals? The only thing I am asking understanding for is the MARKET aspect of having 5 jerseys, and constantly changing the identity ever 7-10 years. Is it good for an Identity? No. Is it a smart BUSINESS move in the current climate? Yes. The franchise is doing it to put coin in their pocket. No where am I saying its good because Cleveland does it and every one else sucks. Not even close. I prefer a solid identity much more than the changing of colors, and word marks, and jersey patterns that I have seen over the last 15+ years that I can remember watching (and over the history before my time).

Also, I have responded plenty of times with calm answers, saying nearly exactly the same thing Andrew has said. I may be a bit more animated in my answers, because I have been repeating myself numerous times... yet some of you still choose to ignore my responses. And I will admit, I may have said stuff in the past that was hastily constructed. That is my own fault, and I admit it. That being said, people still take what I am writing, and misconstrue it into something completely different.

This quite possibly could be a complete misinterpretation because it is nearly impossible to read emotion online. That being said, I will admit I have been getting heated. People accuse me of being a homer, of pound my chest Cleveland is the best, Cleveland :censored:s on every other city, and we do it different in Cleveland, etc. etc. Every City is different, every city has peculiarities. That makes every City different. That is all I am saying. People are trying to take that like I am saying Cleveland is the next Rome. Not sure why anyone has taken it that way, because I have never come close to saying anything like that. No where am I saying Cleveland is the best. Maybe the best for the type of style I PERSONALLY enjoy, but that is to each his own.

In actuality, I am no where near a homer, I support my home town teams, yes... but I am also the FIRST to criticize them when they do something stupid or screw something up... just like this jersey revamp that they are planning. I am very much out spoken as being against 5 uniforms in a year, but I also have dislodged the stick in my ass, and said I understand why Dan Gilbert and the franchise are doing it. Does it make it right from a brand/identity stand point? Absolutely not. And I have said that, repeatedly.

I have said repeated times, I love a constant identity. Some of my favorite teams are the Yankees, Celtics, Lakers, Browns because they keep said strong, classic identity. I just find in incredible how people are taking what I say completely out of context, and changing it into something completely different. If I am not explaining myself clear enough, then I will work to improve that... but people also need to take a step back and read what I am actually writing, rather than fabricating.

As for not "getting" a City... I don't expect to get New York, or LA, or Compton, or Louisville, or Scranton, or Orville, or Lincoln, or Black Hills, or even Toledo (where I live now). Nor do I pretend to "get" any of those Cities. Nor am I asking anyone to "get" Cleveland or any other City, because its impossible. And maybe there is where the problem lies. The only thing I am asking people to "get," or understand, is the marketing aspect of the uniforms. That is it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[IceCap]

The problem with your line of logic is that, if followed, none of us could criticize anything any team does if it falls outside of out geographical area of residence. Say the Knicks come out with an atrocious alternate next season. Does that mean that neither of us can legitimately criticize it? After all, neither of us is from New York. So we must not "get" New York to "understand" the uniform.

That's the problem I have with your whole line of reasoning. No city is beyond comprehension to outsiders. So enough with it already.

Also, because in your last post, this stood out as a gem of pure brilliance. It deserves to be addressed on its own...

As for the Cleveland Browns argument... all you have to do is look at the history of the franchise and how the NFL has embraced that Dawg Pound identity. Whether you want to recognize it or not, the NFL has, and it is the only franchise that can say that.

How has the NFL embraced the Dawg Pound identity any more then they have any other team's "drunken idiot fan section"? The idea that Cleveland is any more connected with the Browns then any other NFL city with its team is laughable. I don't mean that as a slight against Cleveland. I mean that as a slight against people who think that they actually have a special relationship with their favourite football team.

[ESTONES6]

EDIT: forgot to delete this. See below.

[ESTONES6]

The problem with your line of logic is that, if followed, none of us could criticize anything any team does if it falls outside of out geographical area of residence. Say the Knicks come out with an atrocious alternate next season. Does that mean that neither of us can legitimately criticize it? After all, neither of us is from New York. So we must not "get" New York to "understand" the uniform.

That's the problem I have with your whole line of reasoning. No city is beyond comprehension to outsiders. So enough with it already.

Also, because in your last post, this stood out as a gem of pure brilliance. It deserves to be addressed on its own...

As for the Cleveland Browns argument... all you have to do is look at the history of the franchise and how the NFL has embraced that Dawg Pound identity. Whether you want to recognize it or not, the NFL has, and it is the only franchise that can say that.

How has the NFL embraced the Dawg Pound identity any more then they have any other team's "drunken idiot fan section"? The idea that Cleveland is any more connected with the Browns then any other NFL city with its team is laughable. I don't mean that as a slight against Cleveland. I mean that as a slight against people who think that they actually have a special relationship with their favourite football team.

I can agree with that... but my argument revolved around market size. My logic was perfect. It may not have been presented in 4th grade terms, but it was perfect logic. Like I said, I am the first to criticize bone-headed errors like the Cavs are making (once again). But my argument was structured around the fact that Cleveland has a top 5 salary, and are the only "small market" team in the top 6 or 7 according to salary. Part of the reason they can afford it, is because the approximately 80+ consecutive home sell outs, but a larger part is due to the merchandise sales. Like Andrew said, the franchise is constantly spitting out things people want to buy - especially during the "LeBron James Era." I am not saying that means Cleveland is better than anyone or any other City. I am just presenting the reasoning behind it. Please, no one take that out of context again.

As for the Browns argument: The Browns fans are called the Dawg Pound, just as the Redskins have their pigs... it is something they are known for, respectively. PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying Browns fans are better than anyone else (although everyone likes to think they have the best fans). However, the Browns are the only team in the NFL to have the NFL develop and sanction a logo for advertisement based souly on a team fan base, and have text "DAWG POUND." The only NFL developed logo that was not the City's name or teams' nick name.

That is my Browns arrangement. To me, that makes them different. To you, it doesn't make them different. Its subject to personal taste.

[IceCap]

I guess with the whole Browns thing I just find the concept of a team with a special connection with its fanbase to be a product of a bygone era. In the days of salary caps, free agency, etc... no one's "loyal" to the team they play for. So if there's no connection between the team and fans because the team's constantly changing.

I get that Cleveland is a sports town where football ranks #1 among all of the sports it has pro teams in. If the level of the "relationship" between a city and fanbase could be measured though (which I'm pretty sure it can't), then I would guess Green Bay would outdo you guys. The city OWNS the team. You can't get any closer then that.

The problem with your line of logic is that, if followed, none of us could criticize anything any team does if it falls outside of out geographical area of residence. Say the Knicks come out with an atrocious alternate next season. Does that mean that neither of us can legitimately criticize it? After all, neither of us is from New York. So we must not "get" New York to "understand" the uniform.

That's the problem I have with your whole line of reasoning. No city is beyond comprehension to outsiders. So enough with it already.

I can agree with that... but my argument revolved around market size. My logic was perfect. It may not have been presented in 4th grade terms, but it was perfect logic. Like I said, I am the first to criticize bone-headed errors like the Cavs are making (once again). But my argument was structured around the fact that Cleveland has a top 5 salary, and are the only "small market" team in the top 6 or 7 according to salary. Part of the reason they can afford it, is because the approximately 80+ consecutive home sell outs, but a larger part is due to the merchandise sales. Like Andrew said, the franchise is constantly spitting out things people want to buy - especially during the "LeBron James Era." I am not saying that means Cleveland is better than anyone or any other City. I am just presenting the reasoning behind it. Please, no one take that out of context again.

The thing is though, historically speaking, what will define the LeBron James era? The Jordon Era Bulls and the Kobe Era Lakers, for example, had consistent uniforms. You look at a picture or watch a highlight from Jordon's days as a Bull and he's wearing one of three uniforms, all three of which promote the same brand/identity. With James he's wearing a new uniform each time I see a picture of him. Once he retires, assuming he retires as a Cavalier, how will his era be defined, visually?

Again, if this is naive, so be it. If they have to continue shilling various alternates to make cash, fine, I can grudgingly accept the throwbacks. At least they mean something. Just leave the weird coloured fashion jerseys on the team shop rack though.

[andrewharrington]

Yeah, in my opinion, I don't think the CavFanatic jerseys need to be worn on court to validate them as a fashion item, but apparently someone feels that step is needed to authenticate them in some way; they have a jock tag sewn on them that reads 'team issued' and has the CavFanatic logo on it. So, someone along the marketing line thinks that the fact that they are worn on court is a selling point. Maybe it is, maybe not, I can't vouch either way.

[ESTONES6]

I guess with the whole Browns thing I just find the concept of a team with a special connection with its fanbase to be a product of a bygone era. In the days of salary caps, free agency, etc... no one's "loyal" to the team they play for. So if there's no connection between the team and fans because the team's constantly changing. I get that Cleveland is a sports town where football ranks #1 among all of the sports it has pro teams in. If the level of the "relationship" between a city and fanbase could be measured though (which I'm pretty sure it can't), then I would guess Green Bay would outdo you guys. The city OWNS the team. You can't get any closer then that.

I 100% agree. Perfect example is seeing when coaches change teams, and every week you see them in new garb for their new team. It is the world of sports we live in now.

I definitely think the majority of Cleveland loves the Browns, but that is also true for New York and the Yankees, Boston and the Red Sox and Celtics, LA and the Dodgers and Lakers. By no means am I saying Cleveland is special in that sense.

My only other argument that Cleveland and the Browns are a little bit different compared to other franchises is: How many teams have relocated i.e. Jazz, Hornets, Super Sonics, Rams, and countless others... but the NFL/NBA/MLB doesn't let that city retain the previous name of the franchise. Correct me if I am wrong, but for as far as I can remember, Cleveland is the only City in the Big 3 leagues that has had a team move, and when the team comes back, they keep the same nick name, colors, logos, etc. etc. If I am wrong, please correct me.

[The_Admiral]

There have been multiple iterations of the Milwaukee Brewers and Baltimore Orioles, but they're not said to share the same lineage.

[andrewharrington]

Didn't the current Ottawa Senators hang banners in the rafters for the 'old' Ottawa Senators?

[BBTV]

Also, that's a relatively new "invention". You don't think if there was creative enough people back in the day they would have made that deal for Baltimore when the Colts left? The money was different, and everything about the situations was different. The league makes more money from a Cleveland Browns franchise than they would from a Cleveland Force team. They're doing the same thing for the Super Sonics, and probably will for other established teams if / when they have to move.

Also, the Washington Nationals got their name back, though obviously the circumstances were different.

[ESTONES6]

Have those teams you mentioned kept their history like championships and stats?

[crashcarson15]

Didn't the current Ottawa Senators hang banners in the rafters for the 'old' Ottawa Senators?

Yes, they're hanging at Scotiabank Place.

[BBTV]

Let's not start this debate, k? Or if we do, let's take it to another thread. I've typed out a lot of posts in this thread that I've deleted before hitting "post", because

1) I don't want to be the one responsible for taking a thread off topic to the point that it gets graveyarded, and

2) I don't want to get banned for a few weeks for belittling and insulting an intellectually-defenseless subset of our community to the point where they either start crying uncontrollably, or even worse, harm themselves. I don't want that on my conscience.

[ESTONES6]

Let's not start this debate, k? Or if we do, let's take it to another thread. I've typed out a lot of posts in this thread that I've deleted before hitting "post", because

1) I don't want to be the one responsible for taking a thread off topic to the point that it gets graveyarded, and

2) I don't want to get banned for a few weeks for belittling and insulting an intellectually-defenseless subset of our community to the point where they either start crying uncontrollably, or even worse, harm themselves. I don't want that on my conscience.

Your arrogance does make me laugh.

[jtrip]

I think most of you are right to a degree.

1. 800 Cavs/Lebron jerseys is annoying.

2. But... 800 Cavs/Lebron generates money.

3. It would be great to only have to remember him in one of three jerseys.

4. But, alternates and throwbacks are just that. If he retires as a Cavalier, they'll retire the initial set - wine and gold. They won't retire the blue Ron Harper/Mark Price era throwback.