Native Americans In Sports

[infrared41]

My only point is that it's probably not fair to dismiss Chief Wahoo as nothing more than "just silly." There's more to it than just that. How much more is open to debate but there's more to Chief Wahoo than being just a neat cartoon character.

[Jigga]

Red, as you very well know, "there's no pleasing people..."

I'm all for the "white kids" talking about what is and is not racist. Too often white people shy away from race talk (especially white/black race talk). I don't know if it's that the white people don't want to offend or they are just afraid to expose themselves (let's keep it real here) or they're just tired of the same :censored: being said all the time, but as long as it's rational and well reasoned discussion, it's all good.

[IceCap]

I'm still trying to find out if I qualify as white. I'm Jewish, and most Jews are white, and I'm very white, I had a very white upbringing, but according to the White Power folks I'm not white

So can I claim miscellaneous?

[infrared41]

Red, as you very well know, "there's no pleasing people..."

I'm all for the "white kids" talking about what is and is not racist. Too often white people shy away from race talk (especially white/black race talk). I don't know if it's that the white people don't want to offend or they are just afraid to expose themselves (let's keep it real here) or they're just tired of the same :censored: being said all the time, but as long as it's rational and well reasoned discussion, it's all good.

It's both.

My intent wasn't to start some big debate over Chief Wahoo. I just thought it was pretty arrogant or ignorant (I haven't decided which) for Admiral to dismiss Chief Wahoo as nothing more than "just silly." Perhaps he'd see it differently if we could find some disparaging caricature of a naval officer or something.

[The_Admiral]

Haha.

You can make a tenuous connection to old racist caricatures, yes, but don't you think any residual racism has been scrubbed clean by incremental updates, the passing of time, Major League, and stuff like that? It's not an instrument of hate, unlike the posters of Sinister Cosmopolitan Jews offered earlier. I don't think it ever was meant to be an instrument of hate. I don't think it was intended to "say" anything about Indians, nor does it in its current form. I don't think anyone is led to believe that Native Americans all have weird triangular eyes and distended grins because of a sports logo. At this point, it doesn't signify anything more than the Cleveland Indians baseball team.

[OnWis97]

I would agree that it, along with the cartoons most of us older folks have seen, is not and never was a symbol of hate. Belittlement, on the other hand...

[max]

I can't tell you how angry it makes me when people do not respect the Native American population - who still live on reservations (check the poorest counties in America and you will see that they are all on Native American reservations). When was the last time sweeping change came to these people!? You will never see Chief WAHOO change until politicians begin to GIVE BACK to these terrible reservations. People are ignorant about the facts. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and he is considered too liberal for the conservative media. It makes me sick to hear Sarah Palin say that she wants to go back to the time of the founding fathers when life expectancy and GDP per capita are below the levels of modern-day Afghanistan. Native Americans have NO voice in their futures and they will die off. The Cleveland Indians and Washington Redskins have been in a position to make a monumental shift in the opinions of their fans concerning the life and death of the original inhabitants of the land YOUR diseased and dirty ANCESTORS illegally immigrated to. I have spent time on these reservations and am appalled by their opinions of us. I can't stand those two teams for those reasons. They are racist teams.

*Your point is racist when you mention race, period.

Race was and always has been a political issue. It began as one and still is. The people below the government accepted racism because they were not cultured and ignorant thugs - the same good-old-boys who founded the Cleveland Wahoos and Washington Scalps.

Bridger, South Dakota - home of the Takini Skyhawks. "Mitakuye Oyas'in" - All My Relations.

To Glen Beck and all the white men who have bought everything:

Part of accepting all of what good things your parents gave you, be that all the money your father made from the bakery and your genetic inheritance (that is to say you look like a doughnut-eater), is accepting all of the BAD things that you inherited from your father, his white skin and blonde hair and his lack of regard for poor people. To say you, a rich white man, are not responsible for the atrocities that previous rich white men have committed is ignorant because of these reasons. You can't deny all of the bad things you inherited and accept all of the good things. To say that I have not had confederate soldiers in my family history would be a lie. I have to accept that part of me. As ordinary white men it is most important that we come to terms with our history - all of the good and the bad. Yes, your ancestors gave you the Washington Redskins, but you also must realize the folly in their ways every time you see that dead floating Indian head on a winter coat. That is your mission in life, to change the perception of what people expect of you as a rich white man.

I hear a lot about "our culture" being put on trial, to the test, or that there is an all-out war on "our culture," and there should be considering all of the bad things we white men have committed to attain our cozy place in society. "Our culture" is our skin color. White men in our histories have made this distinction and we must follow it. If you disagree, then help a Native American reservation.

MP.

[The_Admiral]

Part of accepting all of what good things your parents gave you, be that all the money your father made from the bakery and your genetic inheritance (that is to say you look like a doughnut-eater), is accepting all of the BAD things that you inherited from your father, his white skin and blonde hair and his lack of regard for poor people. To say you, a rich white man, are not responsible for the atrocities that previous rich white men have committed is ignorant because of these reasons.

[Jigga]

I would agree that it, along with the cartoons most of us older folks have seen, is not and never was a symbol of hate. Belittlement, on the other hand...

Intent is always trumped by perception...

[charger77]

What the old saying?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions?

[infrared41]

Haha.

You can make a tenuous connection to old racist caricatures, yes, but don't you think any residual racism has been scrubbed clean by incremental updates, the passing of time, Major League, and stuff like that? It's not an instrument of hate, unlike the posters of Sinister Cosmopolitan Jews offered earlier. I don't think it ever was meant to be an instrument of hate. I don't think it was intended to "say" anything about Indians, nor does it in its current form. I don't think anyone is led to believe that Native Americans all have weird triangular eyes and distended grins because of a sports logo. At this point, it doesn't signify anything more than the Cleveland Indians baseball team.

Wahoo has never signified anything more than the baseball team but that isn't the point. Aunt Jemima doesn't signify anything more than pancakes and syrup. Right?

[charger77]

Is the 21st Century Aunt Jemima offfensive?

If so would a modernization of the Indian logo and the dropping of the Chief Wahoo name be a good compromise?

[IceCap]

I can't tell you how angry it makes me when people do not respect the Native American population - who still live on reservations (check the poorest counties in America and you will see that they are all on Native American reservations). When was the last time sweeping change came to these people!? You will never see Chief WAHOO change until politicians begin to GIVE BACK to these terrible reservations. People are ignorant about the facts. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and he is considered too liberal for the conservative media. It makes me sick to hear Sarah Palin say that she wants to go back to the time of the founding fathers when life expectancy and GDP per capita are below the levels of modern-day Afghanistan. Native Americans have NO voice in their futures and they will die off. The Cleveland Indians and Washington Redskins have been in a position to make a monumental shift in the opinions of their fans concerning the life and death of the original inhabitants of the land YOUR diseased and dirty ANCESTORS illegally immigrated to. I have spent time on these reservations and am appalled by their opinions of us. I can't stand those two teams for those reasons. They are racist teams.

*Your point is racist when you mention race, period.

Race was and always has been a political issue. It began as one and still is. The people below the government accepted racism because they were not cultured and ignorant thugs - the same good-old-boys who founded the Cleveland Wahoos and Washington Scalps.

Bridger, South Dakota - home of the Takini Skyhawks. "Mitakuye Oyas'in" - All My Relations.

To Glen Beck and all the white men who have bought everything:

Part of accepting all of what good things your parents gave you, be that all the money your father made from the bakery and your genetic inheritance (that is to say you look like a doughnut-eater), is accepting all of the BAD things that you inherited from your father, his white skin and blonde hair and his lack of regard for poor people. To say you, a rich white man, are not responsible for the atrocities that previous rich white men have committed is ignorant because of these reasons. You can't deny all of the bad things you inherited and accept all of the good things. To say that I have not had confederate soldiers in my family history would be a lie. I have to accept that part of me. As ordinary white men it is most important that we come to terms with our history - all of the good and the bad. Yes, your ancestors gave you the Washington Redskins, but you also must realize the folly in their ways every time you see that dead floating Indian head on a winter coat. That is your mission in life, to change the perception of what people expect of you as a rich white man.

I hear a lot about "our culture" being put on trial, to the test, or that there is an all-out war on "our culture," and there should be considering all of the bad things we white men have committed to attain our cozy place in society. "Our culture" is our skin color. White men in our histories have made this distinction and we must follow it. If you disagree, then help a Native American reservation.

MP.

Wow. Just....wow. Sorry buddy, I'm just going to say I disagree with you there and leave it at that. I consider myself a pretty tolerant and liberal person, but this, this goes way to far off the deep end for me.

[infrared41]

Is the 21st Century Aunt Jemima offfensive?

If so would a modernization of the Indian logo and the dropping of the Chief Wahoo name be a good compromise?

I never thought the old version of Aunt Jemima was offensive but then again, I'm not black.

That's the only point I've been trying to make. White people aren't in the position to decide if Wahoo is offensive to Native Americans.

[The_Admiral]

I don't think Native Americans really care about the Cleveland Indians as much as we may like them to. I think they're more concerned with abject poverty and stuff.

This is no way helps the "it's not racist" cause, but the Indians would've looked much cooler if their colors were brown and red instead of navy and red, just sayin'

[charger77]

Is the 21st Century Aunt Jemima offfensive?

If so would a modernization of the Indian logo and the dropping of the Chief Wahoo name be a good compromise?

I never thought the old version of Aunt Jemima was offensive but then again, I'm not black.

That's the only point I've been trying to make. White people aren't in the position to decide if Wahoo is offensive to Native Americans.

Neither did I.

I think a big problem too is if people want to view something as racist they will. Regardless if it is or not.

Also, I think people (not saying the members of this conversation) need to know the difference between racist and bigot.

For example...

If I were to say I hate Obama because he is black that is a biggoted comment.

If I were to say that Obama can't be a successful President because he is black that is a racist comment.

If I were to say that I don't like Obama because of policies A, B, and C and somebody calls me a racist, then that person is choosing to inject race into a discussion where it doesn't exist.

Now I know that little side rant doesn't involve the Indians or logos but it seems that the term racist is thworn around too lightly these days. Racist is a pretty powerful term. When it is thrown around, it really devalues the impact it has when it truly does exist.

-Dan

[Lee.]

White people aren't in the position to decide if Wahoo is offensive to Native Americans.

This is really the point I was trying to make back when I did my "white people" comment. At some point during every one of these debates, some (NOT ALL) of the Caucasians in the room break off into one of two groups; the EVERYTHING IS RACIST WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR EVERYONE group, and the NOTHING IS RACIST EXCEPT MY THINLY VEILED COMMENTS group.

I'm rather shocked it took a page and half for the first RARR NATIVE AMERICANS rant, though. It usually pops up in the first 12-15 posts.

[ltjets21]

Can some all indian team name there team the crackers, so we can get over this.

[infrared41]

Can some all indian team name there team the crackers, so we can get over this.

Sure because the entire issue is that simple.

[JACK IS CONSTRUCTION]

I am the essence of a white kid, so nothing offends me. Except being called McLovin, cause that :censored: happens er'day.