What hockey & the Thrashers mean/meant to me

[slapshot]

I feel for all Thrashers fans. As a fan of two teams (Grizzlies/Blues) who come up in relocation talk relatively often (especially with the Blues for sale again), it's not fun seeing anyone lose a team.

As I read somewhere, "If it can happen in Cleveland with the Browns, it can happen anywhere."

This is certainly true. Heck - the Eagles, an institution since 1933, were THISCLOSE to being sold to Phoenix investors in the mid '80s after owner Leonard Tose essentially lost the team gambling in AC. It's a miracle that someone (carpetbagger used-car salesman Norman Braman, AKA the owner so bad that the players sat out and sued for their free agency) bought them and kept them put.

The Patriots were THISCLOSE to moving to Hartford, or even St Louis. Of course, this may have just been posturing on the part of the Kraft family to have Gillette Stadium built.

Brian in Boston has mentioned the story before.

[Lee.]

The "Dome in Hartford" story. I remember it on TSN.

[The_Admiral]

I think the Patriots almost moved to St. Louis under pre-Kraft ownership, and then Kraft almost moved to Hartford before he got the deal to develop the land adjacent to Foxboro Stadium. The governor of Connecticut wanted the Whalers to break their lease so that the penalty could be used to fund the stadium, as I recall.

[rams80]

I think the Patriots almost moved to St. Louis under pre-Kraft ownership, and then Kraft almost moved to Hartford before he got the deal to develop the land adjacent to Foxboro Stadium. The governor of Connecticut wanted the Whalers to break their lease so that the penalty could be used to fund the stadium, as I recall.

The pre-Kraft ownership indeed tried to move to St. Louis; Kraft (who owned the Stadium and the lease) rejected a buyout offer on said lease in 1994 and turned around and then bought the team (since he had all the leverage.)

[ElwoodCuse]

It's gotta make you wonder, would Tampa Bay still be around had they not won the cup in '04?

No, if anything, the FLORIDA PANTHERS should relocate. they draw no fans, have a losing record every year, only 3 playoff appearances ever, and they are the most irrelevant team in sports. I guarantee, if the Panthers relocate, no one in the Florida area will care. Bettman should have done that before Phoenix or Atlanta.

The Florida Panthers are like the Pittsburgh Pirates. They suck but they make money. They aren't going anywhere.

ps Gary Bettman decides jack squat about what goes on in the NHL, he is the public face on what 30 owners want and you're stupid beyond belief if you think he's some kind of Bond villain that acts on crazy whims and ego trips

[The_Admiral]

Bettman is either a powerless figurehead or an iron-fisted singlehanded achiever depending on whatever's convenient at the time. He personally saved the Edmonton Oilers, his defenders will tell you, when not saying that everything the NHL does wrong is someone else's fault.

[FrankCostanza]

The "Dome in Hartford" story. I remember it on TSN.

Hartford was going to be an outdoor stadium. After the Pats decided to stay the stadium was downsized into what is now known as Rentschler Field. On the other hand, Providence was planning on building a 68000 seat domed stadium.

[IceCap]

It's gotta make you wonder, would Tampa Bay still be around had they not won the cup in '04?

No, if anything, the FLORIDA PANTHERS should relocate. they draw no fans, have a losing record every year, only 3 playoff appearances ever, and they are the most irrelevant team in sports. I guarantee, if the Panthers relocate, no one in the Florida area will care. Bettman should have done that before Phoenix or Atlanta.

The Florida Panthers are like the Pittsburgh Pirates. They suck but they make money. They aren't going anywhere.

Despite sucking the Pirates still draw decent crowds. I have to think that's a big part of how they make a profit. The Panthers had dismal attendance, to the point that parts of the rink are being covered with tarp. Their tv numbers are pretty pathetic too. So tell me o wise NHL insider, where's the revenue coming from? Did the NHL convince another American small town to cover the loses of their hockey team no one wants to see?

ps Gary Bettman decides jack squat about what goes on in the NHL, he is the public face on what 30 owners want and you're stupid beyond belief if you think he's some kind of Bond villain that acts on crazy whims and ego trips

This is, and always has been, a flimsy argument. Yes, the NHL's collective ownership hires the Commissioner, pays his salary, and chooses to renew or not renew his contract. They hire him, however, to be their boss.

Think about it. The NHL owners don't concern themselves with the day-to-day happenings of the league. They can't. They meet for the big decisions then they go off to run their individual teams or other business interests outside of the NHL. That's the point of the Commissioner. To have someone who can run the league on a day-to-day basis, because the owners as a group simply can't do that. Since the Commissioner is the one running the league on a day-to-day basis the owners defer to his judgment on matters such as relocation. Why? Because they're all off involved with their individual teams or businesses. They don't keep up on the day-to-day happenings, so when something big comes up they defer to the guy hired to be on top of the day-to-day happenings, the Commissioner.

As for acting on ego trips, well it's the only explanation for the Glendale mess. You have two teams. One of which has owners who want to sell. The other doesn't even have owners, it's owned by the league and surviving on suburban government subsidies. One of which has to move. Objectively speaking which one do you move now and which one do you give another year to in order to work something out? You move the team surviving on government subsidies. Why? Because they're surviving on ing government subsidies. Yet Bettman moved the one with the stable ownership group. He could have easily given the ok to sell Phoenix off to Thomson and told ASG to give it one more year. Yet he didn't. Why? In what way does sacrificing the Thrashers to save the Coyotes make sense? In what way is it worth it to keep the Coyotes alive for another year, living off of the Glendale tax payer?

It really doesn't. So you look at why he opted to keep Phoenix. Either he didn't want to admit that moving that particular team was a mistake in 1996 or he didn't want to admit that maybe Jim Balsillie was right when he said hockey won't work in the G-ddamn desert. Either way he's acting to preserve his ego.

Not that it matters though. Winnipeg has a team again, a wrong has been righted. And that's enough for me. For now.

Go Canucks.

[BLUELANDbeliever]

Ice_Cap ... that last bit is what nobody wants to understand about this mess. Bettman was insulted (i think) by Goldwater because he was being told 'No'. Bettman doesn't like to be told no. So what did he do? Let his ego take over and save a team that draws <insert low number here> fans. Yes, i know, the Thrashers didnt have good attendence as of late and that was a contributing factor, BUT NOT THE MAIN CAUSE I really do feel for the TRUE Coyotes fans out there, as well as the players. (mostly the players because personally, i would be so sick of playing for a team that only draws crowds at playoffs and even after a respectable playoff run, nobody shows up to the stands).

[Drakonius26]

Ice_Cap ... that last bit is what nobody wants to understand about this mess. Bettman was insulted (i think) by Goldwater because he was being told 'No'. Bettman doesn't like to be told no. So what did he do? Let his ego take over and save a team that draws <insert low number here> fans. Yes, i know, the Thrashers didnt have good attendence as of late and that was a contributing factor, BUT NOT THE MAIN CAUSE I really do feel for the TRUE Coyotes fans out there, as well as the players. (mostly the players because personally, i would be so sick of playing for a team that only draws crowds at playoffs and even after a respectable playoff run, nobody shows up to the stands).

I think we've established the poor attendance and bad ownership situation, but what about local ownership? It doesn't seem like any one wanted to step up to the plate and own that team, or three entities. Another thing is, the owners who Bettman works, who I believe been a driving force behind securing teams within non-traditional markets would flip if Bettman alone wanted to undermine a large television market in Atlanta, and give the city the dubious honor of losing two franchises within a 30 year time-span. Okay, so the owners are looking to get paid with a relocation fee (I believe it's 60 million dollars), but then I would imagine they wouldn't mind (Bettman included) keeping Atlanta if a local buyer wanted to overpay for the Thrashers. We might never know, because perhaps they didn't go through the right channels to buy the team, and I would imagine if the Atlanta Spirit didn't want to give it to a group of local investors and the owners and Bettman caught wind of this, I would also imagine they could revoke Atlanta Spirit's membership and seize control of their team due to collusive practices and then allow said group to overpay for the franchise, keeping it in Atlanta.

[BLUELANDbeliever]

Ice_Cap ... that last bit is what nobody wants to understand about this mess. Bettman was insulted (i think) by Goldwater because he was being told 'No'. Bettman doesn't like to be told no. So what did he do? Let his ego take over and save a team that draws <insert low number here> fans. Yes, i know, the Thrashers didnt have good attendence as of late and that was a contributing factor, BUT NOT THE MAIN CAUSE I really do feel for the TRUE Coyotes fans out there, as well as the players. (mostly the players because personally, i would be so sick of playing for a team that only draws crowds at playoffs and even after a respectable playoff run, nobody shows up to the stands).

I think we've established the poor attendance and bad ownership situation, but what about local ownership? It doesn't seem like any one wanted to step up to the plate and own that team, or three entities. Another thing is, the owners who Bettman works, who I believe been a driving force behind securing teams within non-traditional markets would flip if Bettman alone wanted to undermine a large television market in Atlanta, and give the city the dubious honor of losing two franchises within a 30 year time-span. Okay, so the owners are looking to get paid with a relocation fee (I believe it's 60 million dollars), but then I would imagine they wouldn't mind (Bettman included) keeping Atlanta if a local buyer wanted to overpay for the Thrashers. We might never know, because perhaps they didn't go through the right channels to buy the team, and I would imagine if the Atlanta Spirit didn't want to give it to a group of local investors and the owners and Bettman caught wind of this, I would also imagine they could revoke Atlanta Spirit's membership and seize control of their team due to collusive practices and then allow said group to overpay for the franchise, keeping it in Atlanta.

Dude, ASG doesnt give 2 shakes of my left nut about hockey. Plain and simple. Thats it. End of discussion.

[Drakonius26]

Ice_Cap ... that last bit is what nobody wants to understand about this mess. Bettman was insulted (i think) by Goldwater because he was being told 'No'. Bettman doesn't like to be told no. So what did he do? Let his ego take over and save a team that draws <insert low number here> fans. Yes, i know, the Thrashers didnt have good attendence as of late and that was a contributing factor, BUT NOT THE MAIN CAUSE I really do feel for the TRUE Coyotes fans out there, as well as the players. (mostly the players because personally, i would be so sick of playing for a team that only draws crowds at playoffs and even after a respectable playoff run, nobody shows up to the stands).

I think we've established the poor attendance and bad ownership situation, but what about local ownership? It doesn't seem like any one wanted to step up to the plate and own that team, or three entities. Another thing is, the owners who Bettman works, who I believe been a driving force behind securing teams within non-traditional markets would flip if Bettman alone wanted to undermine a large television market in Atlanta, and give the city the dubious honor of losing two franchises within a 30 year time-span. Okay, so the owners are looking to get paid with a relocation fee (I believe it's 60 million dollars), but then I would imagine they wouldn't mind (Bettman included) keeping Atlanta if a local buyer wanted to overpay for the Thrashers. We might never know, because perhaps they didn't go through the right channels to buy the team, and I would imagine if the Atlanta Spirit didn't want to give it to a group of local investors and the owners and Bettman caught wind of this, I would also imagine they could revoke Atlanta Spirit's membership and seize control of their team due to collusive practices and then allow said group to overpay for the franchise, keeping it in Atlanta.

Dude, ASG doesnt give 2 shakes of my left nut about hockey. Plain and simple. Thats it. End of discussion.

I know, and neither did any other local investors from the looks of it.

[HedleyLamarr]

I know, and neither did any other local investors from the looks of it.

Atlanta Spirit had no intentions of selling the Hawks or Philips Arena, unless they got really blown away with an offer.

No businessman in their right mind was going to buy just the Thrashers and keep them here. Not only would they be paying rent to use Philips Arena, they wouldn't have gotten a cut of parking or concessions.

That's why no local investor stepped up to buy the Thrashers. They were going to lose more money than Atlanta Spirit claims they lose now.

[BLUELANDbeliever]

I know, and neither did any other local investors from the looks of it.

Atlanta Spirit had no intentions of selling the Hawks or Philips Arena, unless they got really blown away with an offer.

No businessman in their right mind was going to buy just the Thrashers and keep them here. Not only would they be paying rent to use Philips Arena, they wouldn't have gotten a cut of parking or concessions.

That's why no local investor stepped up to buy the Thrashers. They were going to lose more money than Atlanta Spirit claims they lose now.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Why would anybody want to pay rent to ASG? Fans would not react well to the Thrashers still being affiliated with that basketcase of an ownership group

[pmoehrin]

Bettman is either a powerless figurehead or an iron-fisted singlehanded achiever depending on whatever's convenient at the time. He personally saved the Edmonton Oilers, his defenders will tell you, when not saying that everything the NHL does wrong is someone else's fault.

I think he got too caught up in the whole moving NHL down south thing which I'd say has been as disaster, but outside of that blunder I don't think he's been all that terrible.

Give him credit though for learning from his mistakes. The NHL has gone back to trying to satisfy their core fanbase and not trying to bring in unproven markets. I can also only fault someone so much for wanting to try something different. Been alot of good ideas that have failed simply because of bad timing. Not saying this was one of them or that's why I thought it failed, but it wasn't all that crazy. Dallas and San Jose wouldn't have teams if not for this. Two of the best fanbases in the NHL I'd say. Can't say it was all bad.

Outside of Houston I don't see a single southern market adding a team in the next 20 years. Maybe KC, but I would consider them more of a midwestern market and I would also doubt it. Even Houston I'm not convinced about either.

I think the Coyotes and Panthers will eventually be gone once their cities feel like they've goten their investment back on their arenas or somebody gives them enough money for them to leave. Logistically though neither of those teams should be there when you have other markets out there like Hamilton, Quebec and Hartford that would almost certainly do much better. Don't think the Predators, Hurricanes or Lightning are in much better shape either. Unlike Atlanta, Florida or Phoenix they really can't use the we don't draw because we don't win excuse. If your winning and not drawing, pretty hard to argue that its a good idea to keep a team there.

[Drakonius26]

I know, and neither did any other local investors from the looks of it.

Atlanta Spirit had no intentions of selling the Hawks or Philips Arena, unless they got really blown away with an offer.

No businessman in their right mind was going to buy just the Thrashers and keep them here. Not only would they be paying rent to use Philips Arena, they wouldn't have gotten a cut of parking or concessions.

That's why no local investor stepped up to buy the Thrashers. They were going to lose more money than Atlanta Spirit claims they lose now.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Why would anybody want to pay rent to ASG? Fans would not react well to the Thrashers still being affiliated with that basketcase of an ownership group

Thank you for proving my point, that neither the Thrashers alone or the entire package was considered attractive enough to purchase.

Plus, as much as Winnipeg returning has people hopeful that the Nordiques and Whalers will be back in time, perhaps the NHL should look at newer markets too like Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee, if and when they have facilities ready. They've tried with Kansas City recently and those exhibition/test games haven't been too successful.

[BLUELANDbeliever]

I know, and neither did any other local investors from the looks of it.

Atlanta Spirit had no intentions of selling the Hawks or Philips Arena, unless they got really blown away with an offer.

No businessman in their right mind was going to buy just the Thrashers and keep them here. Not only would they be paying rent to use Philips Arena, they wouldn't have gotten a cut of parking or concessions.

That's why no local investor stepped up to buy the Thrashers. They were going to lose more money than Atlanta Spirit claims they lose now.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Why would anybody want to pay rent to ASG? Fans would not react well to the Thrashers still being affiliated with that basketcase of an ownership group

Thank you for proving my point, that neither the Thrashers alone or the entire package was considered attractive enough to purchase.

ASG was never looking to sell the hawks at all. Its was a PR stunt to try and hide the truth from Thrashers fans.